£30,000 per annum income.

[leggy]

Drop a baby off with a group of wolves and the wolves will wonder what they did to deserve a free lunch

Corrected. This isn't the Jungle Book

 

[Tom]

The answer, surely, is to increase the basic fekin wages for all workers! (ffs) The only alternative is to reduce benefits, which we can't - 'cause it's already on the breadline. Give everyone a decent minimum wage and even the chavs might drag their arses out of bed.

Yes, we can reduce benefits. Rather than increasing the basic wage.

Make the lazy fuckers work for a living, if they can't get a decent job well thats not my fault - they should have paid more attention in school.

As for these 3 girls, I see no reason why my taxes should contribute towards their stupid selfish decisions.

 

[TdC]

I think its sad that they have no greater aspirations than to breed and live in a council house. THAT is what is wrong. When you are twelve years old and your future is no deeper than picturing a cot, an absent father, and a baby with a name bastardised from designer labels.

I totally and utterly agree with D here. Sadly I haven't a clue what to do about it. Surely there is a root cause somewhere?

 

[Gengi]

It has an impact because we live in a society, not in isolated pockets. It is an established theory that extended life spans were fundamental to human evolotion, as the role of grandparents and social elders helped pass on knowledge and wisdom that was vital to younger generations. Once our physical evolution was no longer essential to our survival, everything boils down to social evolution. If children are raising children, then obviously they have less life experience and wisdom to pass on to their off spring.

It's de-evolution, baby.

That's not to say all older people are automatically better parents than younger people, or that they care more for their children, or that children should automatically be taken away from under age parents (which is barbaric) but all human knowledge and behaviour is accumalative and socially enforced. Drop a human baby from Clapton in deepest Peru with some undiscovered tribe, and that baby won't grow up wanting to become a lawyer and understanding electricity - it will grow up a mean hunter and able to do some funky fire dance. Drop a baby off with a group of wolves and it will grow up growling and running about on all fours. If children are raising children, then they will impart the knowledge of a child. This will be further impacted in one parent families, as only one person will be passing on what they know, how they behave, and so on.

So, these children that don't affect you will be living in the same community as you, hanging out with your children, working in your shops, and if it does have a social impact then everyone in that society will eventually feel it. If the trend is passed on, if we generally mimic in families the scenario we are familiar with, then these children will go on to have children when they are children, and so on and so forth.

I think its sad that they have no greater aspirations than to breed and live in a council house. THAT is what is wrong. When you are twelve years old and your future is no deeper than picturing a cot, an absent father, and a baby with a name bastardised from designer labels.

:worthy:

Where do you begin ? this story touches on some of the deepest wrongs that our society is infected by.
The males who impregnated these girls, where are they ? why are the Police not knocking on their doors ? the law says sex under the age of 16 is illegal wether it is consensual or not, wether you know the person your having sex with is not of legal age is also immaterial. Laws have been broken, if there is no pretence at even attempting a prosecution what does that tell those girls, their children when they grow up, the people who live on the estate with them, the people who read the Sun and even us in FH ? It tells us that the Law is not worth the paper it is written on, it erodes another little bit of respect for authority out of the system, it allows it even encourages this type of behaviour.
Lack of individual responsibility is one of the deepest wrongs infecting our society and this situation is a reasonably good example of it.
We are being told it's the fault of the education system that these girls managed to have sex and get pregnant. How many parents read FH ? I am one, my first child was a mistake, my second child was more or less planned, she took 18 months to conceive. I have no idea if that is typical or not but it is my only experience. How long then was the youngest one having sex before she became pregnant ? how did the mother not know ? (I am making the assumption that she didn't) I would hope that I would have a relationship with my children that would let me notice something as important as them becoming sexually active. I will take responsibility for making sure they know what sex is, what the consequences may be and if necessary what kinds of contraception are available.

Our society is becoming more and more collective, our individual freedoms are being slowly whittled away and with it our individual sense of responsibility. When I was a kid in school, if I got caught doing something wrong I was called to the front of the class and the teacher would belt me, with a tawse, I would then go back to my seat and reflect quietly on the error of my ways.
Now, it is, in my experience, letters home to parents who don't appear to care enough to bother to turn up at parents evenings, and this is in a school in a reasonably affluent area in Newcastle (yes there are one or two ).


Christ, major ramble I will finish with a couple of thoughts.


There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Unfortunately, I have to pay this bill from my taxes, even more unfortunately those three children and their children have to pay a far higher price.


Later

Gengee

 

[DaGaffer]

:worthy:

I would hope that I would have a relationship with my children that would let me notice something as important as them becoming sexually active.

Gengee

I think you're kidding yourself tbh. I was sat on the bus the other day and sat opposite were two (very posh) girls, 12-13 years old, talking about their sex lives (not "who they were snogging", "who they were shagging!"); it was terrifying to listen to. Thinking back to my own early teens, I'm pretty damn sure my parents weren't aware of when I became "sexually active" and my folks are about the most responsible parents you can imagine.

I'm not saying parents can do nothing, and clearly in this (and many cases) parental responsibility has vanished (even if my folks didn't know when I first started shagging girls - 15 - I was certainly aware of the consequences of my actions), but kids do occupy a different planet to most of their parents.

 

[tris-]

oh, since you asked i did try and thing of something instead of giving sums of cash and letting the bastards spend it on what they want.
why not design some kind of voucher that is only spendable on specific items, like bread, milk etc. ye, it seems like world war 2 again if we did that to them, but it will stop them spending our money on shit they dont need for the basics of living.
ok, so your probably gonna say "they will forge the vouchers". they can also forge money but its unlikely they will.
next, you will say "why should the government decide what a person needs to live on?" the average woman needs 2000calories and the average man needs 2500 per day. this has already been decided by scientists. why not use this? give enough vouchers to buy food and drink that will satisfy hydration and calorie needs. ofc there is also vouchers for bog rolls etc. if it is decided that the individual needs more of a certain item, then a doctor would decide this and make sure they get the appropriate vouchers.
if the person is too stupid to use all their food in one day or what ever, tough shit. to pay for their houses, they should be put in community service to clean the streets etc.
these people do not need 7.8k just to live, no one would need that much. ofc they will be using some of this for TV licenses, telephone line etc. you do not need those two items for the basics of living.
and about clothes - every 3 months or so more vouchers would be given for the charity shops so they can buy their clothes. its cheap, but its cloths for them isnt it?
the whole point of my idea is to cut benefits and make sure they can live at the very basic level. what else do you really need for survival? why do they deserve luxuries like TVs and computers? they dont, so why give them the money for it.

 

[Tom]

Why give them vouchers? They'll only sell them on a black market.

No, sorry but if you can't be bothered to work, you get fuck all tbh.

 

[Jupitus]

[stir]

... and why is it that you see more sky dishes in areas where people are in council housing, living from the benefits system, than anywhere else?

[/stir]

... not so relevant now I guess, but was certainly true a few years back

 

[tris-]

Why give them vouchers? They'll only sell them on a black market.

No, sorry but if you can't be bothered to work, you get fuck all tbh.

what would be the worth of selling them, if ultimatley they can only be used to buy food/hydration etc? i cannot see any gain to the buyer of the vouchers.
im with you that there should be no benefits, but will said to make an alternative to benefits. actually, the only thing i could see vouchers traded for are drugs. but then if you traded all your vouchers you dont get any food. but again, what would a dealer do with 5000 loafs of bread?

my guess on the sky dishes is that its the cheapest form of entertainment for benefit types. isnt it £30/month for everything?

 

[Deadmanwalking]

What happened to the old fashioned way of working for your money?

not sponging off the state.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Best line ever!!

How's Uni by the way?

 

[Ch3tan]

One of the papers today had an interview with the parents of the youngest father. They said the mum let him stay around to sleep with her 11/12 year old. When he was 14. And the mum is blaming bad sex ed? lol.

 

[Embattle]

You might accept a mistake if it was just once, however three times isn't a mistake.

 

[maxi]

Um. If you keep people poor and stupid this kind of stuff is always going to happen. I'm not dettaching all the blame from the parents here, because people manage, but these girls...theyr'e CHILDREN it's sad really.


They don't aspire to anything more, because theres so little fucking hope. That isn't their fault, nor is it yours, it's the way our society is run. I won't begrudge them getting 75 quid a week to live. 75 quid for two people,


I dread to think how many businesses, business men and women are gyppinng the tax man right now, wealthy people, really really wealthy corperations. doing YOu out of money that could be spent on improving your lives.

 

[maxi]

Thats not to suggest I want to leave things as they are.

benefit systems needs to be tightened up, stricter controls, but some of the suggestions on here a reactionary beyond belief.

 

[throdgrain]

Maxi theres loads of hope. This isnt the 1980s. Everyones got a job. Well, everyone that wants one that is ...

 

[Tom]

Um. If you keep people poor and stupid this kind of stuff is always going to happen. I'm not dettaching all the blame from the parents here, because people manage, but these girls...theyr'e CHILDREN it's sad really

It is not the responsibility of 'society' to pull people up from the gutter. Its their own responsibility. Thats how nature works, and thats how society should work.

If people want to work, fair enough, give them money for retraining, education etc, but if they have no aspirations at all, bollocks to them tbh.

 

[maxi]

It is not the responsibility of 'society' to pull people up from the gutter. Its their own responsibility. Thats how nature works, and thats how society should work.

If people want to work, fair enough, give them money for retraining, education etc, but if they have no aspirations at all, bollocks to them tbh.

Its like damini says, if that's all you're surrounded by..what else can you do? You and I come at the problem in two different ways, and there's no way we'll ever agree.

as for hope, how the hell do you know unless you've lived like it? people say life aint easy, but very rarely do they know the meaning of hardship. If you grow up with the belief you're the scum of society, and won't amount to anything ("hey look at those chav scum") then you're kids will do the same, etc etc.

i realise me even attempting to put across a semi socialist pov on this forum is alsost pointless.

im going to live in norway!

 

[leggy]

if they have no aspirations at all, bollocks to them tbh.

Nice sentiments.

I expect no one would cry for you if those same children stabbed you in the street for a few pounds.

Don't even try to kid yourself that it wouldn't happen.

 

[tris-]

fuck the parents, but help the kids when they are older? would that make some of you happy?

 

[Deadmanwalking]

fuck the parents, but help the kids when they are older? would that make some of you happy?

You have no idea what would make me happy right about now.

 

[Gengi]

fuck the parents, but help the kids when they are older? would that make some of you happy?

Which set of kids Tris, the kids of the kids or the kids who had the kids ? The kids who are now parents have already been fucked literally, figuratively and every other way you can think of.
I do not profess to know the answer, but I do think there should at least be criminal procedings, I also think that Mrs Atkins should be charged with aiding and abetting the statutory rape of her daughter, after she admitted knowingly letting her 12 year old daughter have sex, in her house. I believe her children, and her grandchildren should be taken away from her, maybe the 16 year old can stay if she wants to. Social services should have been round there immediately that is there job, those children have at the least been neglected.

Gengee

 

[Louster]

Maxi theres loads of hope. This isnt the 1980s. Everyones got a job. Well, everyone that wants one that is ...

Incidentally, this is rubbish. My father has struggled all his life to maintain a decent income. He's one of the most intelligent people I know, and loves what he does - mainly an electronics and software engineer - but since he had a fucked up childhood, and wasn't able to get any significant qualifications, he's struggled ever since, despite being pretty damn good at what he does.

Look, without wanting to go on about how shit this is, the belief that "effort = success" is ridiculously simplistic.

 

[throdgrain]

Yeah, but its not the eighties. There is a chance to get a job. Struggling to maintain a decent wage is vastly preferable to not having a job at all mate.
And yeah, Ive done both .

 

[leggy]

oh c'mon there are TONNES of call centres. You don't even need to speak english either it appears.

 

[Will]

Call centres don't pay enough to support a partner and a family. I struggle to maintain a decent drug habit working in one.

And I don't think they will be around for ever. Outsourcing is pretty much inevitable.

 

[Lazarus]

oh c'mon there are TONNES of call centres. You don't even need to speak english either it appears.

yeah - a slight Asian accent and you are IN!

 

[Danya]

tbh though, it's not the fact that they get all that money (they could all have their own homes too btw, thank feck they're sharing), as someone pointed out, it's financially better to sponge than work.

They get £150/week.
Minimum wage is £120/week for 16-17 yo, £164/week for 18-21 yo, £194/week for older workers (assumes 40 hour work week). And it's increasing in september. It's not really better to sponge. However it is a lot easier to sponge which probably attracts a lot of people do doing it.

 

[Calaen]

Im with Gengi here the mere fact that her mother knowinlgy allowed her 12y/o to have sex at home is a disgrace. There should be something done to send a message out to the rest of the potential morons.

How the fuck can she say it is the schools fault, she knew what was going on and done nothing about it she obviously really cares about her daughters.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

Wow, this thread contains lots of interesting issues!

Corporal punishment: Legalising corporal punishment again I do not agree with. I think it is a stupid and naive idea; why the heck would it be better if those uninformed "white trash" were also allowed to beat their kids on whim? Not to mention the psychological repercussions such traumatic events can have on a child. It’s a nice way to create juvenile delinquents, but not much else. The mother, which would have been the one to use such punishment, seems to be just as much a part of the problem as the children.

Welfare: You cannot measure the value of human lives in money. Doing so is cynical, and in its worse cases, fascist. Talking about how its “natural” that the weaker members of society should be left to starve has a lot in common with the social Darwinism of the 1930s. I would have liked to believe that western society was civilized enough to have moved beyond the simple survival of the fittest. My country is big on welfare, though I have never heard of cases like this here. I think the issue lies elsewhere.

The issue: The removal of welfare, corporal punishment and so on are just quick and easy "fixes" for much, much, much complex social problems. It’s typical of the human mind's reductionist cause-effect way of thinking. The REAL issue isn't the money or lack of physical discipline. The question is why they didn't know better, and why the mother didn't seem to care.

 

[Louster]

Yeah, but its not the eighties. There is a chance to get a job. Struggling to maintain a decent wage is vastly preferable to not having a job at all mate.
And yeah, Ive done both .

By "struggling to maintain a decent income" I meant "periodically being unable to get any work".