United States Corrupt Twattery

[Scouse]

Politicking @Gwadien. The US has a fair point about the fact that we've been freeloading. He told Europe last time he was in power to massively up defense spending. We didn't do it.

The EU has near 500 million people in it. Many more than the US. So why are we still reliant on the US for defense?

They probably won't pull out. Or if they do, they'll not totally abandon us. But it'll get uncomfortable.

But answer this - why should the US continue to align with a Europe that is - unequivocally - retreating from the values that previously bound us.

 

[Scouse]

I'm more interested in his threats to pull out of the IMF and World Bank (if they did indeed say that):

I've long been of the opinion that the American Revolution failed with the Federal Reserve act of 1913. Like Jefferson said:

The system of banking we have both equally and ever reprobated. I contemplate it as a blot left in all our constitutions, which, if not covered, will end in their destruction, which is already hit by the gamblers in corruption, and is sweeping away in its progress the fortunes and morals of our citizens. Funding I consider as limited, rightfully, to a redemption of the debt within the lives of a majority of the generation contracting it; every generation coming equally, by the laws of the Creator of the world, to the free possession of the earth he made for their subsistence, unincumbered by their predecessors, who, like them, were but tenants for life… And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.

...

Edit: Maybe there's hope for the dream of crypto yet! (If that doesn't trigger you, nothing will!)

 

[caLLous]

I'm firmly of the opinion that Putin has proof of Trump abusing children.

There are any number of shady reasons for his behaviour... There's the idea that they have some hardcore kompromat on him (eg child abuse), there's the whole Krasnov thing (that he's a bona fide Russian agent, recruited in the 80s), there's the fact that he absolutely swoons over actual dictators and is desperate to impress Putin however he can, or that he obviously despises Zelensky (probably the quid pro quo Biden shit from his last term) and is hellbent on burying him or lastly that he's just that bad at making deals that he's revealed his whole hand before anyone has even started talking. There's no diplomatic or political reason to go into it so biased towards one side.

The thing is, if Russia are actually controlling him somehow (via blackmail or because he's an asset or whatever), surely they'd tell him to tone it down a bit because of how obvious he's making it.

Everything he's done has been anti-Ukraine and pro-Russia, literally everything and there's no logical reason for it unless he's personally involved somehow. This is what I can think of off the top of my head, mostly from the last couple of weeks:

• halting aid to Ukraine,
• ambushing Zelensky in the Oval Office (proper useful idiot stuff to deny that this happened btw),
• ordering other nations to stop sharing US intel with Ukraine,
• halting all cyber activities against Russia (this one on its own is particularly eyebrow-raising, looking at how much damage Russia has done via the interwebs over the last decade),
• making moves to revoke the legal status of 240k Ukrainian refugees in the US,
• already talking about lifting sanctions on Russia,
• saying from day 1 that NATO membership wasn't going to happen,
• shaking Ukraine down for 3x what they "owe" (and btw it's doubly vile to demand "payment" for aid received before peace has been achieved "or else we won't help you any more but... we're not going to make any promises to actually help you even if you sign the deal"),
• calling Zelensky a dictator (we know he's not one of those because Trump would be sucking up to him if he was)
• refusing to call Russia the aggressor in their G7 statement
• sneaking around, talking to Zelensky's political opponents in Ukraine, trying to get them on board to force an election

That last one just came out today, what possible legitimate motive could Trump have for doing that? Zelensky isn't choosing to not have an election, it's in their constitution that they can't when they're under martial law (because, you know, invasion) and it seems like all of the political opponents said as much. Luckily there's still a bit of integrity left.

 

[Scouse]

How about this @caLLous : Oligarchy is the next logical step from democracy. You could quote the Iron Law or we could just accept that Aristotle knew and wrote about this 2400 years ago.

Yeltsin, when the USSR fell, pleaded with the West for stabilising assistance in the transition from Communism to help prevent the meteoric rise of Oligarchy and gangster-capitalism in Russia.

We walked away.


Trump & Musk are oligarchs. Russia is essentially an oligarchy. Alignment with Russia may just be enlightened self-interest.

Meanwhile, Europe retreating from it's fundamental charter and principles...

 

[Gwadien]

View: https://youtu.be/xfccsaSaqFY?t=1336


I made a post earlier about this exact point @Scouse but I deleted it, this is why america leaving is very bad and why we can't just immediately fill the gap now, I think this has made it very clear that we need to, I just hope we can before trump goes full retard.

 

[DaGaffer]

I'm still a little bemused that the Orange Man is bad for trying to end a war that Ukraine has little chance of winning without provoking WW3.

Well you would because you're a cunt who loves Trump and always has. He's tying to give Putin what he wants not what Ukraine needs, so fuck off.

You and Scouse, the useful idiot and the Magat apologist, United at last!

 

[Scouse]

Maybe I'm a useful idiot but at least I value human life over forever wars with no objective.

Anyway @Gwadien, after years of being asked to stand on our own two feet but failing, Trump's slap to the EU has produced the results:

‘Watershed moment’: EU leaders agree plan for huge rise in defence spending

Leaders endorse Ursula von der Leyen proposal as French president calls Vladimir Putin ‘an imperialist who seeks to rewrite history’

www.theguardian.com

So, he was right. We're freeloading teenagers who've been warned on our behaviour for years. Now we've just been kicked out of the family home and guess what? We got a job...

 

[Raven]

I mean, a simple short term option is to simply boot every single American military and intelligence asset out of UK/EU territory. That is our bargaining chip.

 

[caLLous]

Maybe I'm a useful idiot but at least I value human life over forever wars with no objective.

It's all just pointless hand-wringing though - Ukraine isn't going to just stop fighting if the US stops helping them. The idea that Trump's goal here is to save lives is laughable. He doesn't want to end the war for the sake of humanity, he wants Russia to win it (or at least for it to end on as favourable terms as possible for Russia).

If those who agreed to step in if Russia tried anything had actually stepped in in 2014, Putin would be back in his box, none of this would've happened and Ukraine would be whole.

 

[Scouse]

That's a nice fantasy you have there @caLLous.

If the US stops helping Ukraine they'll stop fighting very quickly - when they're overrun.

My pointless hand wringing is your rabid, drooling idiocy - if Ukraine asks for volunteers are you going to sign up?

Yeah. You don't need to answer.

Turns out that you want to continue the fighting as long as it's other people dying.

It's easy to be a rabid fantasist than a pragmatist when it has no consequences for your family.

 

[DaGaffer]

That's a nice fantasy you have there @caLLous.

If the US stops helping Ukraine they'll stop fighting very quickly - when they're overrun.

My pointless hand wringing is your rabid, drooling idiocy - if Ukraine asks for volunteers are you going to sign up?

Yeah. You don't need to answer.

Turns out that you want to continue the fighting as long as it's other people dying.

It's easy to be a rabid fantasist than a pragmatist when it has no consequences for your family.

You're the one commenting about nice fantasies? Pot fucking kettle.

 

[BloodOmen]

Unedited video of what happened in the Oval Office.

View attachment aqy8NA7_460svav1.mp4

 

[Raven]

Placate Putin now, 2 years later he fancies taking Georgia, because, why not? Then perhaps, after a few years of rebuilding their war machine, they start on Estonia, Latvia, Moldova, Belarus are already onboard. America, CLEARLY, bought and paid for.

We have been here before, not that long ago. Sans America, quite probably no longer on our side.

 

[Raven]

China will be fucking loving this. Further expansion into South America and Africa, largely unnoticed.

 

[Bodhi]

Well you would because you're a cunt who loves Trump and always has. He's tying to give Putin what he wants not what Ukraine needs, so fuck off.

You and Scouse, the useful idiot and the Magat apologist, United at last!

Ah yes of course, because I don't join in the Two Minute Hate on Trump and can see some positives in what he's doing, that means I'm apologist. That's depressingly binary thinking and I didn't have you down as the sort of smooth brained midwit who'd engage in such nonsense - guess I was wrong.

I'll just join in the Trump hate instead. Yes to moar forever war, down with peace! WW3 sounds fun, let's try that!

Am I doing this right?

 

[Scouse]

You're the one commenting about nice fantasies? Pot fucking kettle.

I don't know how you can call me a fantasist. I said from the very beginning that this ends with Putin getting some land and everyone feeling bad. Turns out that is exactly what is going to happen.

 

[BloodOmen]

China will be fucking loving this. Further expansion into South America and Africa, largely unnoticed.

Surprisingly, China's Envoy sided with Europe over Trump being a cunt, China said they were "appalled at how Donald Trump is acting"

 

[Scouse]

China will be fucking loving this. Further expansion into South America and Africa, largely unnoticed.

Absolutely. China is going to have Taiwan - probably on a faster timeline than it would have done previously.

Europe has had a long time to spin up a war industry so we could push back. But we didn't do it and instead got America to do the stuff we weren't capable of doing, on our doorstep. And America picked up the bill.

Ukraine isn't in NATO. America has no obligation to fix problems for countries that aren't in NATO. But they did it anyway - and we sat on our hands.

One of the biggest issues in Germany's recent election was not breaking their 9bn deficit. They just signed off on 100bn of spending. It literally took Trump threatening to pull out of NATO for us to take our thumbs out of our assess. Long term this is probably a good thing. Short term? Yeah, well - it's our own fault, not America's.

We were warned, repeatedly.

 

[Scouse]

Surprisingly, China's Envoy sided with Europe over Trump being a cunt, China said they were "appalled at how Donald Trump is acting"

They're talking about tariffs and being opportunistic arseholes.

Europeans like to point the finger at America and go "they're the big bad". But China are. China are the big bad.

If the shit hits the fan, life in America is still better.

 

[Bodhi]

I think one of the negatives of this whole situation is Germany deciding to rearm - I mean that's always gone well in the past...

 

[BloodOmen]

I think one of the negatives of this whole situation is Germany deciding to rearm - I mean that's always gone well in the past...

Maybe Elon is actually a time traveler and he seen it coming... hence his salute.

 

[Scouse]

Then perhaps, after a few years of rebuilding their war machine, they start on Estonia, Latvia, Moldova, Belarus are already onboard.

So - question for all:

Raven has quite rightly pointed out - if we put Putin "back in his box" - what's to stop him doing this anyway?

Or are we saying we need to invade Russia to ensure he can't do this any more?


Come on. I'm getting called all the names under the sun. We put Putin back in his box. Why doesn't he do this and how do we stop him doing this? I've asked this a few times, nobody is answering, but it's pretty fundamental to your positions.

 

[Bodhi]

So - question for all:

Raven has quite rightly pointed out - if we put Putin "back in his box" - what's to stop him doing this anyway?

Or are we saying we need to invade Russia to ensure he can't do this any more?


Come on. I'm getting called all the names under the sun. We put Putin back in his box. Why doesn't he do this and how do we stop him doing this? I've asked this a few times, nobody is answering, but it's pretty fundamental to your positions.

Will admit I haven't read this thread from beginning to end, however in the general arguments around this I'm seeing a lot of reasoning Schrödinger would be proud of.

On the one hand, Russia are a paper tiger with many economic and social problems who have been shown to be nowhere near the military force we thought in their attempts to take over Ukraine.

On the other hand, if we don't nip them in the bud now Russia will march across all of Europe, invading many NATO countries in the process.

So which is it?

 

[Deebs]

So - question for all:

Raven has quite rightly pointed out - if we put Putin "back in his box" - what's to stop him doing this anyway?

Or are we saying we need to invade Russia to ensure he can't do this any more?


Come on. I'm getting called all the names under the sun. We put Putin back in his box. Why doesn't he do this and how do we stop him doing this? I've asked this a few times, nobody is answering, but it's pretty fundamental to your positions.

Did the Allies not put Hitler back in his box?

 

[Overdriven]

I'm sure there are enough windows in Russia that somebody could make it happen..

 

[Scouse]

Did the Allies not put Hitler back in his box?

Well, suicide, but yes

So Deebs is for "Invading Russia". The count is at:

Invade Russia: 1
Other solution: 0

 

[Scouse]

I'm sure there are enough windows in Russia that somebody could make it happen..

There's a reason why we don't (often) do that. What do you think it is?

 

[Deebs]

Well, suicide, but yes

So Deebs is for "Invading Russia". The count is at:

Invade Russia: 1
Other solution: 0

Forget the fact he killed himself, we actively stopped him for his genocide and complete disregard for civilians, not that far different from Putin's antics in Ukraine. I did not say invade Russia but I am all for ensuring Ukraine gets military aid in its continued fight.

 

[Scouse]

Forget the fact he killed himself, we actively stopped him for his genocide and complete disregard for civilians, not that far different from Putin's antics in Ukraine. I did not say invade Russia but I am all for ensuring Ukraine gets military aid in its continued fight.

We didn't stop Hitler because he was burning jews and gypsies (and whatever else he defined as 'undesireables'). That was going on for ages and we did fuck all. We stopped him because he started invading us. (And it's arguable that Russia, our ally, in many ways 'won' the war for us)

If you're not for "Invade Russia" - i.e. put him back in his box and ensure he can't do it again, then what are you for. Because "war, only up to Russia's borders, leaving Putin to regroup and start again" doesn't appear to be an option anyone wants.

Not really having a pop at you here oh my lord and master. Just pointing out what nobody really seems to want to think about or address.

 

[Bodhi]

Forget the fact he killed himself, we actively stopped him for his genocide and complete disregard for civilians, not that far different from Putin's antics in Ukraine. I did not say invade Russia but I am all for ensuring Ukraine gets military aid in its continued fight.

Didn't think he did kill himself?

Oh wait no, that was Jeffrey Epstein.

As you were.