United States Corrupt Twattery

[Deebs]

We didn't stop Hitler because he was burning jews and gypsies (and whatever else he defined as 'undesireables'). That was going on for ages and we did fuck all. We stopped him because he started invading us.

If you're not for "Invade Russia" - i.e. put him back in his box and ensure he can't do it again, then what are you for. Because "war, only up to Russia's borders, leaving Putin to regroup and start again" doesn't appear to be an option anyone wants.

Not really having a pop at you here oh my lord and master. Just pointing out what nobody really seems to want to think about or address.

The biggest problem is that the EU as fucking always won't do jack shit, the UK does not have the military power to put boots on the ground in Ukraine hence our continued reliance on the US.

Though I would love to see someone ask Trump on camera the following "If a state of America wants to leave the union (or whatever it is called) much like Ukraine is attempting to do what would your response be as POTUS.

 

[Deebs]

Didn't think he did kill himself?

Oh wait no, that was Jeffrey Epstein.

As you were.

What? How did you arrive at your first sentence? I did state "Forget the fact" - how does that turn into me thinking he didn't kill himself?

 

[Bodhi]

What? How did you arrive at your first sentence? I did state "Forget the fact" - how does that turn into me thinking he didn't kill himself?

It was a joke

 

[Deebs]

It was a joke

Sorry Just spent hours working out how to load a fucking grease gun with a cartridge for the first time ever.

 

[DaGaffer]

Ah yes of course, because I don't join in the Two Minute Hate on Trump and can see some positives in what he's doing, that means I'm apologist. That's depressingly binary thinking and I didn't have you down as the sort of smooth brained midwit who'd engage in such nonsense - guess I was wrong.

I'll just join in the Trump hate instead. Yes to moar forever war, down with peace! WW3 sounds fun, let's try that!

Am I doing this right?

There are no positives so just stfu. None.

 

[DaGaffer]

I don't know how you can call me a fantasist. I said from the very beginning that this ends with Putin getting some land and everyone feeling bad. Turns out that is exactly what is going to happen.

And all the rest of your bullshit that ignores reality? Seriously?

 

[Bodhi]

There are no positives so just stfu. None.

Other than:

- After a couple of years of a forever proxy war peace is on the table.
- Europe have been convinced maybe they should have their own defences rather than freeloading off the US.
- The Israel-Gaza conflict has been paused since the day before he took office, and now Arab nations are discussing how they can help Gaza.
- Lots of companies have committed to investing in the US.
- Men are getting kicked out of women's sports
- The southern border looks a lot less porous than when Biden was in charge

Other than that, no positives at all.

 

[Ormorof]

Other than:

- The Israel-Gaza conflict has been paused since the day before he took office, and now Arab nations are discussing how they can help Gaza.

Yes its amazing he wasn't even President and he was able to negotiate take credit

 

[DaGaffer]

Other than:

- After a couple of years of a forever proxy war peace is on the table.
- Europe have been convinced maybe they should have their own defences rather than freeloading off the US.
- The Israel-Gaza conflict has been paused since the day before he took office, and now Arab nations are discussing how they can help Gaza.
- Lots of companies have committed to investing in the US.
- Men are getting kicked out of women's sports
- The southern border looks a lot less porous than when Biden was in charge

Other than that, no positives at all.

1. Peace isn't on the table, surrender to tyrants is on the table. So stfu.
2. Europe was never freeloading off the US. Talking out of your hole. Europe needs to rearm because the US is destroying an organisation that's given Europe peace for 80 years, but that's not the same thing as freeloading unless you're some kind of simpleton. So stfu.
3. Because Bibi literally waited until Trump was in power! How fucking naive are you? And that's before we get on to full blown ethnic cleansing/beachfront property. STFU.
4. WHICH THEY WON'T DO. It's theatre. They'd actually be sued by their shareholders.
5. Wow. I'll give you this one, certainly worth all the bullshit.
6. Absolutely irrelevant, because just like small boats, it's a distraction. Most migrants arrive on a plane like normal people. "Smooth-brained"? If you buy that shit you're basically a vegetable.

So, shall we move on? Or do you fancy defending DOGE including giving free access to personal data or everyone to someone who wants to take over the payment industry? Or Tarriffs that are, (I quote) "the dumbest trade war in history" (Wall Street Journal), or climate rollbacks, or the lies about inflation causes, or blaming Zelensky for being invaded, or Greenland, or Panama, or fucking egg prices.

I know supporting Trump makes you feel like the edgelord you used to aspire to, but in reality you just look like a knob.

 

[Scouse]

And all the rest of your bullshit that ignores reality? Seriously?

Oh hai

So, where do you stand on this?:

Raven has quite rightly pointed out - if we put Putin "back in his box" - what's to stop him [invading after he's licked his wounds] this anyway?

Or are we saying we need to invade Russia to ensure he can't do this any more?

We ramp up funding and support for Ukraine until Russia gets pushed back into it's borders.

What then?

 

[Ormorof]

Nukes for everyone clearly the only way to not be invaded what could possibly go wrong /s

 

[Scouse]

Nukes for everyone clearly the only way to not be invaded what could possibly go wrong /s

Yeah. I know you're joking, but it's pretty fucking horrid. And not using nukes is just a taboo. At some point we'll find a human that will break it.

So, actual serious answer wanted to my question. I'm getting called all the names under the sun, but if we put Putin "back in his box", what then? What's to stop him licking his wounds and doing it again?

Because if you've no answer to that, then this is true (which it is), and the correct course of action is stopping further killing - because we've already achieved our objective of ensuring Putin knows it's expensive to take land.

 

[Embattle]

Nukes for everyone clearly the only way to not be invaded what could possibly go wrong /s

To quote the Budapest Memorandum:

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,

Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as non-nuclear-weapon State,

Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time,

Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the Cold War, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces.

Confirm the following:

1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.

2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

3. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.

4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.

5. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm, in the case of Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a State in association or alliance with a nuclear-weapon State.

6. Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America will consult in the event a situation arises that raises a question concerning these commitments.

 

[Bodhi]

1. Peace isn't on the table, surrender to tyrants is on the table. So stfu.
2. Europe was never freeloading off the US. Talking out of your hole. Europe needs to rearm because the US is destroying an organisation that's given Europe peace for 80 years, but that's not the same thing as freeloading unless you're some kind of simpleton. So stfu.
3. Because Bibi literally waited until Trump was in power! How fucking naive are you? And that's before we get on to full blown ethnic cleansing/beachfront property. STFU.
4. WHICH THEY WON'T DO. It's theatre. They'd actually be sued by their shareholders.
5. Wow. I'll give you this one, certainly worth all the bullshit.
6. Absolutely irrelevant, because just like small boats, it's a distraction. Most migrants arrive on a plane like normal people. "Smooth-brained"? If you buy that shit you're basically a vegetable.

So, shall we move on? Or do you fancy defending DOGE including giving free access to personal data or everyone to someone who wants to take over the payment industry? Or Tarriffs that are, (I quote) "the dumbest trade war in history" (Wall Street Journal), or climate rollbacks, or the lies about inflation causes, or blaming Zelensky for being invaded, or Greenland, or Panama, or fucking egg prices.

I know supporting Trump makes you feel like the edgelord you used to aspire to, but in reality you just look like a knob.

No you are correct, it was unfair to call you smooth brained.

Mostly as that would suggest you have a brain - if you do, there aren't any obvious signs.

So stfu.

 

[Embattle]

It might now be that Trump has realised just beating the victim and talks about rewarding the aggressor don't work:

Donald Trump says he's considering new sanctions and tariffs on Russia, following a wave of overnight strikes on Ukraine.

He writes: "Based on the fact that Russia is absolutely 'pounding' Ukraine on the battlefield right now, I am strongly considering large scale Banking Sanctions, Sanctions, and Tariffs on Russia until a Cease Fire and FINAL SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT ON PEACE IS REACHED.

"To Russia and Ukraine, get to the table right now, before it is too late. Thank you!!!"

 

[Scouse]

To quote the Budapest Memorandum:

I mean, you break your non-facepalm silence to state the bleeding obvious?

Anyway:

It might now be that Trump has realised just beating the victim and talks about rewarding the aggressor don't work:

He specifically said that he's on neither side in the press conference.

Now, that might sound a bit wanky, considering they've clearly been on Ukraine's side or there'd be no Ukraine. But if the US is going to broker the peace deal between the two, then the US needs to be seen to be slapping both sides. Ukraine was easy - without the US they don't exist. That bit's done. Russia? I'm on the record repeatedly being sceptical that sanctions ever really worked against Russia. But it's all we've got, and if they've actually got more to apply - then apply they must. (But why haven't they already applied them?)

Meh. I know everyone wants to say orange man bad, but again, this is what this was always coming to.

 

[Embattle]

See all previous comments about this subject in this thread and the Russian one for replies, no update required.

 

[caLLous]

Since when did Trump specifically saying something mean anything?

 

[Scouse]

1. Peace isn't on the table, surrender to tyrants is on the table. So stfu.

I don't think it's surrender to tyrants. It's pragmatism in the face of objectives achieved and further pointless loss of life. And unless we've a way of stopping him doing it again...

2. Europe was never freeloading off the US. Talking out of your hole. Europe needs to rearm because the US is destroying an organisation that's given Europe peace for 80 years, but that's not the same thing as freeloading unless you're some kind of simpleton. So stfu.

Actually, the fact that the US is contributing more than the EU (and have been complaining since Trump 1.0) - despite the EU having a bigger population and similar GDP (we're both ~15% of global GDP) then I think that is arguable that we're freeloading. (With our own borders on the line).

Trump pulled the trigger, the EU came up with 800 billion immediately.***

3. Because Bibi literally waited until Trump was in power! How fucking naive are you? And that's before we get on to full blown ethnic cleansing/beachfront property. STFU.

Yeah. I'm with you on this. US foreign policy is effectively owned by Israel. But then, so is blighty's. And it's disgusting.

It was really pleasurable to see Ireland make the only strong statements against Israel.

4. WHICH THEY WON'T DO. It's theatre. They'd actually be sued by their shareholders.

I think there's going to be a lot of theatre on this and announcement of investment that is already being made. But it absolutely will make a difference. It hurts everyone, but it hurts the US relatively less than the other economies because of the imbalances.

5. Wow. I'll give you this one, certainly worth all the bullshit.

I mean, credit where credit's due. That's a return to scientific reality. But the only reason he's done it is because it plays well with the majority. It's easy to shit on minorities.

6. Absolutely irrelevant, because just like small boats, it's a distraction. Most migrants arrive on a plane like normal people. "Smooth-brained"? If you buy that shit you're basically a vegetable.

Agree.


So, what's this smooth-brained shit?


***Edit: They couldn't do that for the "existential crisis" that is the environment, but hey ho.

 

[Scouse]

Since when did Trump specifically saying something mean anything?

Fair point. I'll guess we'll find out if there's a ceasefire soon.

I mean, they'll wait until Putin's got enough land to make himself "happy." But then they'll stop.

 

[Ormorof]

Until he's not happy and needs more land, then what's next Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, Georgia? Let's keep throwing countries under the bus, but no no, no fighting then people get hurt

 

[caLLous]

Putin will put on his best somber face and agree to "peace", he'll get his 20% of Ukraine, then there'll be an election, then a Kremlin puppet will appear out of nowhere at the top of the polls and take the presidency under highly dubious circumstances (with Trump no doubt telling everyone who'll listen that it all looked fair and above board, and he'd had personal assurances from Putin that there'd been no interference and he believed him), then the rest of Ukraine will be essentially handed to Putin, then the countries on the eastern edge of the EU (ex-USSR and those who were allied with the USSR) will suddenly start getting very nervous... not because he has a fabulous army but because Russia has obviously got very good at hybrid warfare and has no qualms about bombing childrens' cancer hospitals, stealing thousands of children and any number of other war crimes he's committed.

 

[Scouse]

Until he's not happy and needs more land, then what's next Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, Georgia? Let's keep throwing countries under the bus, but no no, no fighting then people get hurt

So answer my fucking question then!

We put him back in his box. What's to stop him licking his wounds, regrouping, and starting again a decade down the line? What's the solution?

Do we invade Russia? Is that what you've got?

 

[Ormorof]

The only ones that can actually stop this is Russia, put him in his box or not, they will lick their wounds and keep coming, it's what he does.

See Chechnya, Transnistria, South Ossetia, east Ukraine, for invasions, see the polonium poisoning in London, see Salisbury novichok attack.

He does not give a fuck about collateral damage, as long as he stays in power he will keep throwing bodies at the problem, he's happy for it to be ours if need be

 

[Bodhi]

I don't think it's surrender to tyrants. It's pragmatism in the face of objectives achieved and further pointless loss of life. And unless we've a way of stopping him doing it again...

Actually, the fact that the US is contributing more than the EU (and have been complaining since Trump 1.0) - despite the EU having a bigger population and similar GDP (we're both ~15% of global GDP) then I think that is arguable that we're freeloading. (With our own borders on the line).

Trump pulled the trigger, the EU came up with 800 billion immediately.***



Yeah. I'm with you on this. US foreign policy is effectively owned by Israel. But then, so is blighty's. And it's disgusting.

It was really pleasurable to see Ireland make the only strong statements against Israel.


I think there's going to be a lot of theatre on this and announcement of investment that is already being made. But it absolutely will make a difference. It hurts everyone, but it hurts the US relatively less than the other economies because of the imbalances.


I mean, credit where credit's due. That's a return to scientific reality. But the only reason he's done it is because it plays well with the majority. It's easy to shit on minorities.


Agree.


So, what's this smooth-brained shit?


***Edit: They couldn't do that for the "existential crisis" that is the environment, but hey ho.

Smooth brained means no ridges or lumps, and ideas just slide straight off. Basically calling him a bit simple. Quite measured considering the outburst I was replying to tbh.


Anyway to back up your points:

1) Yep - the options are either pragmatism and try to make it unappealing for Russia to go again, or we keep feeding bodies into a meat grinder. Given Ukraine are likely to run out of able bodied people at some stage, the only option will be that we supply the bodies and the armaments. That will escalate things with Russia and it will be hello World War 3. Personally I'd rather avoid that, apparently making me an edge lord Trump apologist?

2) The shortfalls in EU defence budgets are hardly new - Trump brought it up last time he was in power, and Obama and Biden have brought it up in the past as well. Trump is back, and all of a sudden the cash has been found to do better.

3) Biden could have signed a peace deal in Gaza at any point, yet it didn't happen until the day before Trump got into power and said there would be hell to pay if it didn't happen. Quite hard to suggest Trump wasn't a factor given the above. Also worth ignoring his plans for Gaza, as they were clearly an opening position of a negotiation. Since then the UAE and I believe Saudi have said no, but we'll help instead.

4) Pretty sure shareholders would be more annoyed if announcements were made about investment that turns out to be bullshit. Anyway this week TSMC have announced they're building a factory in the US, and Honda are moving Civic production to the US from Mexico.

5) Well covered.

6) Whilst most immigration is entirely legal, the good thing about the legal sort is you can screen people coming into the country and you know who they are. People hopping over the border, not so much. Like it or not that was a pretty big issue in the States, especially in those right by the border, and crossings have dropped to pretty much zero. There seems to be some progress in fighting the cartels as well, which is good to see.


No doubt some things he's done have been not so great - the tariffs seem to be a bit of a shambles and will end up hurting Americans, the Greenland thing is amusing but pointless and I'm not sure entirely what he has against Canada. Also whilst I love the idea of a more efficient government some of the ways Musk is going about it seem.... interesting.


Fact remains he was elected on a particular platform, and is going about putting it in place. I know politicians following up on promises is a slightly alien concept over this side of the Atlantic, but it is refreshing to see when it does happen, even if I don't agree with all of it.

 

[Scouse]

3) Biden could have signed a peace deal in Gaza at any point, yet it didn't happen until the day before Trump got into power and said there would be hell to pay if it didn't happen. Quite hard to suggest Trump wasn't a factor given the above. Also worth ignoring his plans for Gaza, as they were clearly an opening position of a negotiation. Since then the UAE and I believe Saudi have said no, but we'll help instead.

Nah. America was waiting until Israel had turned Gaza into a building site. Biden or Trump have no real bearing on this - the Israel lobby defines that foreign policy.

Genocide and total permanent removal of the Palestinian population was the objective, has been the objective for a long time. It's pretty much the same in the West Bank.

The idea that Israel isn't a genocidal wankfest of a country is absurd. Trump is just following through on the next stage. The middle eastern coalition of countries won't get an option to rebuild gaza themselves - because it involves Palestinians getting their homes back.

Fact remains he was elected on a particular platform, and is going about putting it in place. I know politicians following up on promises is a slightly alien concept over this side of the Atlantic, but it is refreshing to see when it does happen, even if I don't agree with all of it.

I mean. This is kind of true. It's not like they were hiding what they were going to do. And the Americans voted for it.

Of course, we've called them Barbarians for voting for stuff we don't like. Which isn't great is it.

 

[Scouse]

Excellent - Poland's working towards full conscription for men if needed, and wants to exit the agreements so it can obtain and use nuclear weapons, antipersonnel landmines and cluster munitions.

Donald Tusk announces military training plans for all men in Poland

Poland's prime minister said his government plans to have a model ready by the end of the year.

www.bbc.co.uk

I mean. If the heads of state want to invade another country, they should have to fight it out, on television, with the country that they want to invade. Leave the people out of it. Government by consent.

Ah well. We are stupid fucking monkeys after all. /sigh

 

[Embattle]

Katyn massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pinky swear agreements won't work.

 

[Scouse]

Katyn massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pinky swear agreements won't work.

Yes, we've established that. Nothing works. War is human nature.

The Katyn massacre is as relevant as the Holomdor - something that happened a hundred years ago under the Communist USSR. It's not related to today at all.

The only thing that's related to today is that we're all the same fucking animal, and it's humans that do this sort of shit.

 

[caLLous]

So, something that happened a hundred years ago isn't relevant but a video of how borders in Europe have changed since 400 BC is... Righto.