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[Gwadien]

Amazon to axe 18,000 jobs as it cuts costs

Most of the job losses will come from human resources and retail including its shops.

www.bbc.co.uk

I wonder if this is related to all the unions popping up across Amazon...

 

[Raven]

Amazon to axe 18,000 jobs as it cuts costs

Most of the job losses will come from human resources and retail including its shops.

www.bbc.co.uk

I wonder if this is related to all the unions popping up across Amazon...

Not really, and this is mostly back end staff. Their warehousing is already running at near peak efficiency, with a minimal base staff topped up with agency where needed. There is currently little slowdown in their distribution network.

 

[Raven]

Londoner solves 20,000-year Ice Age drawings mystery

Furniture conservator Ben Bacon spent hours of his own time decoding cave paintings.

www.bbc.co.uk

This is much huger than it seems. Basically, an understanding of a calendar and a basic form of written language, 20,000+ years ago

 

[Aoami]

Londoner solves 20,000-year Ice Age drawings mystery

Furniture conservator Ben Bacon spent hours of his own time decoding cave paintings.

www.bbc.co.uk

This is much huger than it seems. Basically, an understanding of a calendar and a basic form of written language, 20,000+ years ago

Really cool!

 

[Scouse]

Starmer says Labour would reverse PM’s plan for anti-strike law

‘Minimum service level’ legislation covering sectors including health expected to be announced this week

www.theguardian.com

if they do this and Labour gets in and doesn't immediately reverse it in it's entirety then you'll know definitively that New Labour is just New Tory.

The only power Labour has against Capital is the withdrawal of it's labour.

 

[Raven]

Google "Metiorite"

 

[Scouse]

"Meteorite"

 

[Scouse]

Yeah @Embattle - the "optimistic" above doesn't cut it really. What are you saying about that exactly?

The only power Labour has against Capital is the withdrawal of it's labour.

Is this wrong?

Do you think the Tories should be putting in minimum service agreements - allowing striking staff to be sacked if they withdraw their labour?


This is fundamental to how we arrange everything in our society. Absolutely base rule of capitalism - labour does what capital wants, until labour cannot bear it any more and withdraws their labour.

If you change our ability to withdraw our labour then you make slaves.

 

[Embattle]

Starmer says Labour would reverse PM’s plan for anti-strike law

‘Minimum service level’ legislation covering sectors including health expected to be announced this week

www.theguardian.com

if they do this and Labour gets in and doesn't immediately reverse it in it's entirety then you'll know definitively that New Labour is just New Tory.

The only power Labour has against Capital is the withdrawal of it's labour.

I don't have an issue with minimum services levels in essence since it is used in other countries, the problem is what level do they set it at because then the government can take the piss and set it so high what is the point.

You can withdraw your labour, its called handing in your notice and going elsewhere which is a problem for the government already in social care and nursing due to pay.

 

[Embattle]

Yeah @Embattle - the "optimistic" above doesn't cut it really. What are you saying about that exactly?

@Scouse , see above so you can start your next endless argument.

 

[Scouse]

@Scouse , see above so you can start your next endless argument.

No. It's OK. Just read your argument.

You're "full cunt".

Prime Minister Embattle: "What, you studied and trained and put your money and life on the line to be a nurse or doctor for years - nurses or doctors we desparately need - but your pay and conditions are intolerable?"
NHS Employee: "Yes, it's soul-destroying".
Prime Minister Embattle: "Get back to work you twat, or fuck off to Tescos."

 

[Scouse]

NHS Wales: Man carries grandad into hospital amid ambulance shortage

There were no ambulances available to respond after an 83-year-old man collapsed.

www.bbc.co.uk

Tories did this. They've done it on purpose - because they want to trash the NHS and put in a new system - but we won't call for it's trashing until it's clear it's killing people. And part of doing that is creating conditions that are intolerable.

An estimated 500 people a week dying that don't need to right now and counting. That's not on the nurses and the doctors who had a limited strike.

 

[Tom]

Social care is a major part of the NHS's problems. Hospitals can't handoff elderly, weak patients until they know they're going to be safe wherever they're going. That's why there are so many ambulances queuing up - because beds that could be occupied by sick and ill people, are instead occupied by old people with nowhere safe to go.

And a bit part of the social care problem is the Tories not increasing spending on the NHS to deal with an ever-aging population. They've kept spending at about the rate of inflation, but this country's demographics don't work on the same scale. And they also removed a hell of a lot of young, fit, keen workers with Brexit.

And who pays for social care? Councils. Who've had their budgets murdered by austerity. My council has lost £250m funding since 2010. You don't lose money like that down the back of the sofa.

They've fucked it up completely, all in the name of reducing public spending, increasing corporate profits, and shooting more fucking pheasants for lols.

 

[Scouse]

They've fucked it up completely, all in the name of reducing public spending, increasing corporate profits, and shooting more fucking pheasants for lols.

100% - and I've noticed @Embattle agrees.

But Embattle's solution is to turn doctors and nurses into slaves.

 

[Embattle]

No. It's OK. Just read your argument.

You're "full cunt".

Prime Minister Embattle: "What, you studied and trained and put your money and life on the line to be a nurse or doctor for years - nurses or doctors we desparately need - but your pay and conditions are intolerable?"
NHS Employee: "Yes, it's soul-destroying".
Prime Minister Embattle: "Get back to work you twat, or fuck off to Tescos."

It is a statement of what is happening not what I want to happen but there is no right to get paid more money even if I believe you can't keep talking about hiring more nurses if the pay isn't good enough since why would you want to become one. In an ironic turn it is the government trying to stop capitalism in areas it has semi direct control on.

Social care is a major part of the NHS's problems. Hospitals can't handoff elderly, weak patients until they know they're going to be safe wherever they're going. That's why there are so many ambulances queuing up - because beds that could be occupied by sick and ill people, are instead occupied by old people with nowhere safe to go.

And a bit part of the social care problem is the Tories not increasing spending on the NHS to deal with an ever-aging population. They've kept spending at about the rate of inflation, but this country's demographics don't work on the same scale. And they also removed a hell of a lot of young, fit, keen workers with Brexit.

And who pays for social care? Councils. Who've had their budgets murdered by austerity. My council has lost £250m funding since 2010. You don't lose money like that down the back of the sofa.

They've fucked it up completely, all in the name of reducing public spending, increasing corporate profits, and shooting more fucking pheasants for lols.

It isn't just that, they seemingly have no long term plan on anything which is the result of short-termism because they kept kicking the can down the road believing it would be some one else problem however other than besides endless leader changes the Tories have been in power nearly 13 years so they've got no excuse for not having a long term strategy on social care, NHS, energy, transport, etc.

100% - and I've noticed @Embattle agrees.

But Embattle's solution is to turn doctors and nurses into slaves.

 

[Raven]

Social care is a major part of the NHS's problems. Hospitals can't handoff elderly, weak patients until they know they're going to be safe wherever they're going. That's why there are so many ambulances queuing up - because beds that could be occupied by sick and ill people, are instead occupied by old people with nowhere safe to go.

And a bit part of the social care problem is the Tories not increasing spending on the NHS to deal with an ever-aging population. They've kept spending at about the rate of inflation, but this country's demographics don't work on the same scale. And they also removed a hell of a lot of young, fit, keen workers with Brexit.

And who pays for social care? Councils. Who've had their budgets murdered by austerity. My council has lost £250m funding since 2010. You don't lose money like that down the back of the sofa.

They've fucked it up completely, all in the name of reducing public spending, increasing corporate profits, and shooting more fucking pheasants for lols.

Yes and no. I was in hospital overnight a few years back for a fairly minor op and I just could not escape, the next morning. It took me getting myself dressed and saying I would just walk for them to do anything. Specialist had seen me, had my note for work, had been fed and watered.

 

[JBP|]

The problem with the NHS (in my opinion) is the lack of front line staff.
The nurses I spoke to were telling me a few years ago there were 4 nurses and 2 students on the ward I stayed on. Now there are just 2 nurses and 0 students.
Also she said the top 5 people in the NHS currently get paid over 250k per year.

The lovely ambulance people that transferred me from one hospital to another couldn't believe I had to wait over 48 hours to be taken ( I considered this to be bed blocking although nurses said it wasn't). The ambulance person said the whole NHS should be looked at person by person and anyone not providing "value for money" should simply be removed allowing money to be spent where its needed.

It also took over 12 hours for me to be returned to my point of origin after my op. I protested several times that I could get a lift from my family members, that though is against the rules.

 

[Scouse]

OK, removing the incoherence, and boiling down your "sentence" to the bit that actually makes semantic sense:

It is a statement of what is happening not what I want to happen but there is no right to get paid more money

No - but there IS a fundamental right to withdraw your labour as part of wage negotiations - safe in the knowledge that you'll be returning to work once that is over.

The Tories are removing that basic foundational pillar. Inability to withdraw your labour makes you a slave. Do you even understand why that is a basic principle? Why "fuck off and get another job" is no answer?

Can you even wipe your own arse?

 

[Scouse]

a few years ago there were 4 nurses and 2 students on the ward I stayed on. Now there are just 2 nurses and 0 students.
Also she said the top 5 people in the NHS currently get paid over 250k per year.

The "people at the top get paid more" stuff is a distraction that keeps us proles fighting amongst each other.

It's the top two sentences that are important. Not the existence of executives - that's largely separate.

For me it's not just staff. It's infrastructure, procurement, procedures, hand-offs, areas of responsibility etc. etc. It's broken by design.

 

[JBP|]

For me it's not just staff. It's infrastructure, procurement, procedures, hand-offs, areas of responsibility etc. etc. It's broken by design.

It's broken by too many "management" positions. If there were enough staff in A&E you'd get seen quicker, If there were enough staff on wards treatment would be faster, if there were enough social care people could be sent home quicker.
There's is only ever so much money that can be thrown at the NHS, so you really need to make every penny count and as far as I can see no one iss worth paying 250k per year, seems some people in the NHS agree.

 

[DaGaffer]

For me it's not just staff. It's infrastructure, procurement, procedures, hand-offs, areas of responsibility etc. etc. It's broken by design.

Part of me agrees with that, because obviously, it's the Tories, but another part of me violently disagrees with that, because it's the Tories, who demonstrably can't find their arse with both hands, let alone run some nefarious scheme to destroy the NHS. They're just not that clever.

Look at this way, I live in a country with no conspiracy theories about destroying the health service and right now things look as bad, or worse, than the UK. Sure, there might be a bit of skullduggery, but if there is they're leaning into a foundational problem across the developed world:

‘A ticking time bomb’: healthcare under threat across western Europe

They’re supposed to be among the world’s best systems, but ageing populations, Covid and workforce issues are biting

www.theguardian.com

We're too old and the young don't want to work in medicine, health or social care if they can avoid it.

 

[Raven]

The same as teaching, who the fuck would teach? My sister is packing it in and my wife is getting fucked off with it, she has 2 degrees on top of her teaching qualification, she could earn double doing whateverthefuck.

 

[Scouse]

as far as I can see no one iss worth paying 250k per year, seems some people in the NHS agree.

Nobody is worth paying 250k a year - but those jobs are commonplace across all industries - so if you want to attract someone who can actually manage and think strategically, they have to pay it - or they just get fucking numpties.

Unless we're prepared to deal with wealth and the distribution of wealth across society - which we're resolutely not - then it's a pointless discussion (and not fundamental to the funding of the NHS anyway).

We're too old and the young don't want to work in medicine, health or social care if they can avoid it.

Largely because the pay and conditions are shite (for nurses) and doctors need to be clever people so they're already at a premium and can get paid better with less stress elsewhere.

Again, wealth and distribution of wealth across society. It's not just NHS funding though is it - our government could deal with the fact that 70% of us are unhealthily obese post the dietary advice changes and market freeing up in the 70's and 80's. They could tax the living shit out of anything that isn't actually food. By necessity being a big fat biffer would become a rich man's thing - and they've got private med anyway.

But we've no appetite to do that either. People whine like shit if they couldn't drink a litre of fanta a day.

Maybe you're right - it's just incompetence all round. But our governments are reflections of us. And we're all as thick as shit really. 🤷

 

[DaGaffer]

Nobody is worth paying 250k a year - but those jobs are commonplace across all industries - so if you want to attract someone who can actually manage and think strategically, they have to pay it - or they just get fucking numpties.

Unless we're prepared to deal with wealth and the distribution of wealth across society - which we're resolutely not - then it's a pointless discussion (and not fundamental to the funding of the NHS anyway).


Largely because the pay and conditions are shite (for nurses) and doctors need to be clever people so they're already at a premium and can get paid better with less stress elsewhere.

Again, wealth and distribution of wealth across society. It's not just NHS funding though is it - our government could deal with the fact that 70% of us are unhealthily obese post the dietary advice changes and market freeing up in the 70's and 80's. They could tax the living shit out of anything that isn't actually food. By necessity being a big fat biffer would become a rich man's thing - and they've got private med anyway.

But we've no appetite to do that either. People whine like shit if they couldn't drink a litre of fanta a day.

Maybe you're right - it's just incompetence all round. But our governments are reflections of us. And we're all as thick as shit really. 🤷

Even in a more equitable society (e.g. not the UK), the problems are going to remain; healthcare is labour intensive and the labour needed is highly skilled (nurses as well as doctors these days) with a long training time and loads of debt at the end of it. If you actually paid nurses what they're worth, the whole system would actually fall apart altogether. To an extent, we've always relied on people who work in healthcare treating it as a calling and not paying them their true market value, but as the barriers to entry (e.g. graduate or above) have gone up, the pool of altruistic people willing to do that goes down, and then you have the ageing population problem which means the size of the patient pool is going up as well. And your obesity argument doesn't hold much water either; it's not fat people that are the problem, it's old people, who are in hospitals because their obesity, or their smoking or their drinking, didn't kill them in their 50s and 60s like it used to. The main reason why 1 in 2 of us get cancer (when it used to be 1 in 3) is because we're living long enough to get cancers we wouldn't otherwise have got because we'd have been killed by something else. Nature's way I guess, but what it means is each individual ends up getting far more attention from the health service than they used to over the course of their (longer) lifespan. Until we get personal genome medicine or I dunno, fucking nanobots or something, it's really difficult to see how you can square this circle without paying a HUGE amount more in taxes for the kind of old cunts who vote for Brexit and the Tories.

 

[Bodhi]

NHS Wales: Man carries grandad into hospital amid ambulance shortage

There were no ambulances available to respond after an 83-year-old man collapsed.

www.bbc.co.uk

Tories did this. They've done it on purpose - because they want to trash the NHS and put in a new system - but we won't call for it's trashing until it's clear it's killing people. And part of doing that is creating conditions that are intolerable.

An estimated 500 people a week dying that don't need to right now and counting. That's not on the nurses and the doctors who had a limited strike.

Ignoring the conspiracy woo that makes up most of your post - I'll assume you're aware the NHS in Wales is run by Labour?

Given NHS Scotland (run by the SNP) is also struggling, I wonder when we'll have the real conversation that needs to be had - is the NHS still the best way to run a healthcare system?

What would be fantastic is if we could a) get rid of the religious fanaticism about "our" NHS, b) appreciate that the UK and the US system everyone jumps to when discussing alternatives are not the only options.

Until we can do that, things are just going to get worse and worse.

However you are correct the excess deaths we are seeing at the moment aren't down to the doctors and nurses - well, not directly anyway. It is however, what happens when you shut society down for 18 months for a respiratory disease. That's why society doesn't tend to get shut down, as it's a bit problematic to start it up again...

 

[Scouse]

And your obesity argument doesn't hold much water either; it's not fat people that are the problem, it's old people, who are in hospitals because their obesity, or their smoking or their drinking, didn't kill them in their 50s and 60s like it used to. The main reason why 1 in 2 of us get cancer (when it used to be 1 in 3) is because we're living long enough to get cancers we wouldn't otherwise have got because we'd have been killed by something else.

I was trying to find the data to back this up but it's not easy - but as far as I'm aware people are requiring a lot more medical attention a lot earlier in life - in large part because of our diet and our sedentary nature.

Cancer starts becoming a really big thing in our 50's. Diet, not age, is responsible for 1/3rd of that. So that 1 in 2 thing shoots right back down. If it kills you that's cheap - it's the fact that we're treating way more people than we should be treating. Not just for cancers, but for metabolic diseases, diabetes, heart disease, stroke etc. etc. - all of which go hand-in-hand with how shit we eat.

The healthcare industry is screaming about this - so I think the argument holds water. We can't afford to ignore the societal effects of fucking awful diet on scuppering healthcare.

If we're not prepared to intervene in society, and the NHS is as financially untenable as you assert, then we need another method - and that method will, invevitably, be worse for the poor. As ever. Whereas making it harder to be a big fat cunt would deliver better outcomes for everyone - in terms of day-to-day life as well as improving our ability to treat people medically.

The fit and healthy tend to die faster (and later), cost less over their lifetime and aren't a such a drag on the NHS.

Maybe you should get some tax off if you can prove you hit target weight and health?

 

[Aoami]

What would be fantastic is if we could a) get rid of the religious fanaticism about "our" NHS, b) appreciate that the UK and the US system everyone jumps to when discussing alternatives are not the only options.

100% agree with this and have been pilloried for raising it on here before. Most of my wifes family, and a few of my aunties and uncles work in the NHS and as far as they're all concerned its completely fucked beyond repair.

 

[dysfunction]

you're so cool and mysterious because you don't know who major pop culture figures are, and then feel the need to let everyone know

No

 

[DaGaffer]

Ignoring the conspiracy woo that makes up most of your post - I'll assume you're aware the NHS in Wales is run by Labour?

Given NHS Scotland (run by the SNP) is also struggling, I wonder when we'll have the real conversation that needs to be had - is the NHS still the best way to run a healthcare system?

What would be fantastic is if we could a) get rid of the religious fanaticism about "our" NHS, b) appreciate that the UK and the US system everyone jumps to when discussing alternatives are not the only options.

Until we can do that, things are just going to get worse and worse.

However you are correct the excess deaths we are seeing at the moment aren't down to the doctors and nurses - well, not directly anyway. It is however, what happens when you shut society down for 18 months for a respiratory disease. That's why society doesn't tend to get shut down, as it's a bit problematic to start it up again...

There's a reason for the "fanaticism" about the NHS and it comes down to "do you trust any British government to change it for the better?" And bluntly, the answer is "no". The Germans and French can have an insurance based system because it was enabled back in the days when trust and competence were broadly expected of our politicians and usually delivered (the Germans are now just as incompetent as the British, just in different specialist subjects); that's really not the case any more. Using a relevant example, we brought in compulsory health insurance to help the HSE in Ireland a few years back, and it's fucking useless. All it does it let the insurance companies peel off the lucrative bits (most elective surgeries for example) but they stay the fuck away from general medicine, chronic stuff and pediatrics like (*ahem*) the fucking plague. "But that takes the load off public health doesn't it?", I hear you cry. Tell that to the thousands of people on trollies who can't even get into A&E at the moment. Not to mention the absolute minefield of dealing with private hospitals.

 

[DaGaffer]

I was trying to find the data to back this up but it's not easy - but as far as I'm aware people are requiring a lot more medical attention a lot earlier in life - in large part because of our diet and our sedentary nature.

Cancer starts becoming a really big thing in our 50's. Diet, not age, is responsible for 1/3rd of that. So that 1 in 2 thing shoots right back down. If it kills you that's cheap - it's the fact that we're treating way more people than we should be treating. Not just for cancers, but for metabolic diseases, diabetes, heart disease, stroke etc. etc. - all of which go hand-in-hand with how shit we eat.

The healthcare industry is screaming about this - so I think the argument holds water. We can't afford to ignore the societal effects of fucking awful diet on scuppering healthcare.

If we're not prepared to intervene in society, and the NHS is as financially untenable as you assert, then we need another method - and that method will, invevitably, be worse for the poor. As ever. Whereas making it harder to be a big fat cunt would deliver better outcomes for everyone - in terms of day-to-day life as well as improving our ability to treat people medically.

The fit and healthy tend to die faster (and later), cost less over their lifetime and aren't a such a drag on the NHS.

Maybe you should get some tax off if you can prove you hit target weight and health?

Nope. All the chronic and long term health costs are down to increases in geriatrics. Did you know that men as a group used to barely touch the NHS at all once they were past 25? It was 15-25 "death by doing something stupid", then nothing, then dead of a heart attack or undiagnosed cancer (because men didn't do doctors) at 65. Now it's a long slow journey through replacement hips, knees, hearts and cancer anyway.