Politics So...Europe then?

[dysfunction]

I can't see that Britain will be any better off being out. I can't see the point in unwinding it all and negotiating new trade agreements etc. It makes no sense.
Being in has it's benefits and it's downsides. So does a Brexit but overall I think a Britain taking part and having a huge influence in Europe outweighs any negatives of being in Europe.

 

[Bodhi]

The big thing that would really make me want to get the hell out of dodge is the constant eye fluttering between the EU and the Islamist Dictatorship known as Turkey. From the tacit support of ISIS to the shocking attitude to free press of the current government, can't say I'd feel too comfortable if they were to join the club.

 

[Raven]

But the EU isn't really the problem there because of the net migration out (e.g. people like me, although apparently Brexit won't affect free movement between the UK and Ireland anyway). This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, what problems does Brexit fix? Doesn't seem to be much point in replacing a bunch of working Poles with leather-coloured retired Brits.

Most of the immigration we have does not serve us in the long term, they come here for a few years then return with their fortune. All it does is create more strain on an already struggling infrastructure. More people come here than leave.

 

[Scouse]

Waffle.

Bullshit.

You simply have no argument to justify why %GDP shouldn't be used to fairly measure contribution.

 

[Scouse]

Most of the immigration we have does not serve us in the long term, they come here for a few years then return with their fortune. All it does is create more strain on an already struggling infrastructure. More people come here than leave.

I'm confused. Do they come and fuck off with their cash or do they come and stay.

Pick one?

 

[Raven]

They leave, as you are aware... I would rather they stayed and became proper, long term, contributing members of society.

 

[DaGaffer]

Most of the immigration we have does not serve us in the long term, they come here for a few years then return with their fortune. All it does is create more strain on an already struggling infrastructure. More people come here than leave.

But if they're paying tax while they're here, and buying stuff, what does it matter? I take your point about infrastructure, but isn't that a failure of government more than anything else? Its not like there hasn't been a lot of warning about rising population levels, its pretty much a straight percentage increase on the previous year every year for the last 20 years. Its growing, but fairly predictable.



I'm also a bit confused about whether you think migrants who go home are worse than those who stay, or if they're all bad.

 

[Raven]

Who said anything about them being "bad"

They come, take a wage and leave. Money getting sucked out of the economy is not a good thing. Short term low-end tax payments are nothing to get excited about.

 

[Wij]

The big thing that would really make me want to get the hell out of dodge is the constant eye fluttering between the EU and the Islamist Dictatorship known as Turkey. From the tacit support of ISIS to the shocking attitude to free press of the current government, can't say I'd feel too comfortable if they were to join the club.

Turkey will not be joining the EU while Erdogan is in charge.

 

[DaGaffer]

Short term low-end tax payments are nothing to get excited about.

Aren't they? I don't have a frame of reference, but I do seem to remember something about EU migrants having a positive benefit on the Exchequer; whereas non EU migrants were a net cost. I'll do some digging.

 

[Shagrat]

Turkey will not be joining the EU while Erdogan is in charge.

I hope not, the guys a crook <other politicians may or may not also be crooked>

they should be done for human rights abuse for the way they are going after the Kurds, not be joining the EU.....

 

[Gwadien]

Turkey is interesting - its like America, they're completely secular in their constitution but unless you're Muslim you ain't being President!

 

[Scouse]

they should be done for human rights abuse for the way they are going after the Kurds, not be joining the EU.....

Not that the Brexit lot care about the human rights act tho eh? What, with it being one of the first things to go...

 

[Gumbo]

There's a different argument though; will Brexit Britain be better? As in a nicer, more democratic place to live?

Going to pick out that one bit. I'm not sure I really want the UK to get any more democratic. I'm quite happy with our level of democracy. Introducing more layers of it just adds complication and expense. I certainly don't want the general populace to get any more than a once in 5 year chance to change things if they don't like them. No shit would EVER get done.

I'm not sure that nicer and more democratic have to go hand in hand, once you have a certain level of democracy in place. In fact that might be a very good argument to Brexit.

Just a small point.

For the record I'm undecided, whereas politically I'm normally very decisive.

The EU has made some things very difficult for me commercially, and offered no real benefit, but then it's not all about me....

I am bloody terrified overall though, with Trump and Clinton, Putin and Brexit, the world is suddenly a very uncertain place and uncertainty is usually bad.

 

[Raven]

Not that the Brexit lot care about the human rights act tho eh? What, with it being one of the first things to go...

You mean the one that is being ignored whether we are in Europe or not, that one?

 

[Bodhi]

Not that the Brexit lot care about the human rights act tho eh? What, with it being one of the first things to go...

Not that Britain has ever done anything to advance Human Rights over the years. Ignoring the Magna Carta of course. And the British Bill of rights the ECHR was based upon. And the projects we're doing around the world to advance other people's human rights.

 

[DaGaffer]

Turkey is interesting - its like America, they're completely secular in their constitution but unless you're Muslim you ain't being President!

That's because they're backsliding. Turkey has "re-islamicised" over the last 10 years and an awful lot of people aren't happy about it, especially women, or indeed large parts of the army, who were the "protectors of secularism" since Attaturk.

 

[Wij]

Not that the Brexit lot care about the human rights act tho eh? What, with it being one of the first things to go...

Turkey has been a signatory to the ECHR for donkeys' years for all the good it does. They lead all the other countries in judgements against them. More than Russia.

 

[Wij]

That's because they're backsliding. Turkey has "re-islamicised" over the last 10 years and an awful lot of people aren't happy about it, especially women, or indeed large parts of the army, who were the "protectors of secularism" since Attaturk.

Islamification in the name of populism in the name of authoritarianism at the expense of rule of law.

 

[DaGaffer]

Going to pick out that one bit. I'm not sure I really want the UK to get any more democratic. I'm quite happy with our level of democracy. Introducing more layers of it just adds complication and expense. I certainly don't want the general populace to get any more than a once in 5 year chance to change things if they don't like them. No shit would EVER get done.

I'm not sure that nicer and more democratic have to go hand in hand, once you have a certain level of democracy in place. In fact that might be a very good argument to Brexit.

Just a small point.

For the record I'm undecided, whereas politically I'm normally very decisive.

The EU has made some things very difficult for me commercially, and offered no real benefit, but then it's not all about me....

I am bloody terrified overall though, with Trump and Clinton, Putin and Brexit, the world is suddenly a very uncertain place and uncertainty is usually bad.

I think Britain could stand a bit more democracy; given that its currently a one-party state versus a bloke in a duffel coat.

I do agree you can have too much (Americans voting for sheriff or county clerks for example), but I like the fact that Ireland has referenda every year or two, and I think people should engage with political decision making more than they do.

 

[Embattle]

I like Scouse, he can have a whole argument over a point you didn't actually make which is often just another reason to rate and not reply

Commentary that appears to help both sides - Brexit would damage EU and UK 'politically and economically'

I've been wondering why people often look at the US as some sort of example, they've been doing the united/union thing for over 200 years and it still seems problematic at times.

 

[Raven]

I think Britain could stand a bit more democracy; given that its currently a one-party state versus a bloke in a duffel coat.

That is entirely the fault of the opposition though, not UK democracy itself. Labour have voted in a succession of unelectable leaders and that is unlikely to change any time soon because of the unions.

 

[Embattle]

I think Britain could stand a bit more democracy; given that its currently a one-party state versus a bloke in a duffel coat.

Surely that is just the result of multiple layers of democracy, I'm not entirely sure it is a good example of requiring more democracy at all.

 

[DaGaffer]

That is entirely the fault of the opposition though, not UK democracy itself. Labour have voted in a succession of unelectable leaders and that is unlikely to change any time soon because of the unions.

Yes but if you have an established two party system and one is longer a viable opposition the system itself is failing. Like most countries, politics is fragmenting because the traditional parties aren't answering (or asking) the right questions, but the UK doesn't have many mechanisms to give more people of voice, so the Tories can run the country with a third of the popular vote. The flipside is the impasse we're seeing in Ireland at the moment, where no-one can form a government, but that's probably healthier for democracy, even if I don't like some of the minority parties and independents who may get a voice; its more representative of the people.

 

[Scouse]

I like Scouse, he can have a whole argument over a point you didn't actually make.

I raised a point, and haven't actually replied to anyone who commented, so you can hardly class that as an 'argument'.

Unless you object to different points being raised? Or just by me??

Either way, I notice you've played the man, not the ball, yet again.


As for argument - @Bodhi - doing 'good things' does not give you a free pass to do 'bad things'. And other people's indescretions don't excuse your own...

 

[Scouse]

I think there are very few problems that can't be eased by more democracy. We should definitely try it some time.

It's far too easy to ignore the will of the people.

 

[Job]

Turkey is interesting - its like America, they're completely secular in their constitution but unless you're Muslim you ain't being President!

They are secular, but are practically fighting an underground civil war between two cultures.
I couldn't think of a worse country to accept into the EU...all the politicians want is power by numbers, they are quite simply prepared to destroy 1000's of years of culture to get a bit more respect at the UN.

 

[Gwadien]

They are secular, but are practically fighting an underground civil war between two cultures.
I couldn't think of a worse country to accept into the EU...all the politicians want is power by numbers, they are quite simply prepared to destroy 1000's of years of culture to get a bit more respect at the UN.

1000s years of culture?

Nope.

Turkey is literally the border of Christianity and the Muslim world, now Muslim but now looking to enter the 'Christian' sphere of influence.

I personally think accepting a reformed Turkey is the best idea going in order to have some Muslim influence over the EU, ignoring a massive chunk of the planet is kinda weird for such a massive collection of countries.

If anything, having Turkey in the EU would help us to shape the future of the Middle East through European influence, rather than having them as a nation which is split between being backwards whilst some people are clearly progressive, and want in on the EU.

Sure, I'm not saying now, see how the next elections in Turkey play out, hopefully they'll sort their shit out, and have a more western approach to the Kurds, resulting in a united force against the darker forms of Islam.

Progression is inclusiveness, not leaving people out.

 

[throdgrain]

Fuck that, leaving people out all the way for me thanks

 

[Bodhi]

Second Senior BCC Spokesman Publicly Endorsed Remain

Something about that seems incredibly fishy. Chairman of neutral organisation is forced out of his job for having an opinion, yet 2 people in the same supposedly neutral organisation have the opposite opinion, yet are still there.

Hmmmm.