Politics So...Europe then?

[Job]

The EU wants..and will probably get by flashing other peoples money...a superstate that includes many North African countries, they will..have discussed and been encouraged by Labour in the past to offer a special membership that includes trade, the Euro and free movement of citizens.
Countries like Morocco, Libya, Chad etc will eventually become members in an attempt to either rebuild them or reduce terrorism...it is the obvious next step, to just keep swallowing countries so they aren't a problem on the border.
The EU has no final plan, just security by assimilation.

 

[Scouse]

Even if that's the endgame, so what?

If we spread western civilisation by economic assimilation then that's better than war. - I mean, most of you guys here are fans of capitalism - that's almost it's whole point.

And you'll be long dead by then @Job - so it'll be your great great grandkids who have to put up with the browns living next door and ruining our culture (after we've ruined theirs) - and they won't care a jot...

 

[Raven]

No, it would be a monumental fuck up. What makes you think people want to be ordered around by a foreign state?

 

[Scouse]

Nobody cares about the cling-on countries, they are surplus to requirements now.

I do. And lots of other human beings do.

You know. The humans who have empathy and care for the betterment of the species as a whole, because they realise that wiping out that inequality brings stability and security for all of us, even if it means making some sacrifices on the way.

You know. The better humans

 

[Scouse]

What makes you think people want to be ordered around by a foreign state?

But what makes you think people's notion of "foreign" is static?

Look at the United States. Used to war amongst themselves...

When I say United States - at least until they finally assimilate Canada and Mexico into a bigger superstate...

Bring on one-world government. Bring it.



Edit: Personally, I don't really give a fuck who's calling the shots in terms of where they're from. I'd like to be able to vote for them (reform is needed - in both the UK and the EU on that matter). But in terms of where our government is? I give zero fucks.

Federal superstate with devolved powers but organised rule-based co-operation. Now thats win-win. And the future, one way or another.

 

[Job]

Even if that's the endgame, so what?

If we spread western civilisation by economic assimilation then that's better than war. - I mean, most of you guys here are fans of capitalism - that's almost it's whole point.

And you'll be long dead by then @Job - so it'll be your great great grandkids who have to put up with the browns living next door and ruining our culture (after we've ruined theirs) - and they won't care a jot...

That would be nice except every step is heading to war as they make pyramid scheme economies, one after the other and trounce cultures with their political directives...it will collapse like the soviet union, but with a much bigger bang.

 

[Raven]

But it hasn't worked, has it?

The big countries are still rich and the small countries still live in abject poverty

 

[Raven]

Bring on one-world government. Bring it.

I fully agree with this, and have said (and still do) that we should have a fully democratic Euro superstate. That is not what we are heading for though. We are heading (or already there!) a superstate run by corporations and people we have never heard of, let alone voted for.

 

[Scouse]

But it hasn't worked, has it?

The big countries are still rich and the small countries still live in abject poverty

It's work-ing. Slowly but surely the economic disparites are being levelled out.

So yes. It has worked, and is working.

 

[Scouse]

I fully agree with this, and have said (and still do) that we should have a fully democratic Euro superstate

Then you're going about it the wrong way. You don't destroy and rebuild each time, bringing instability and uncertainty. You reform from within and keep the gains you've made...

 

[Raven]

10 years ago I would agree. Not now. Look at the EU/US trade deal to see how Europe is heading. That shit needs shredding, fast. It wont be though, power has been firmly placed in the lap of multi-nationals.

That isn't progress.

Edit, neither is prick teasing Ukraine into civil war, neither is playing Turkey (which before long will also end in civil war) neither is making Greece our bitch for the next 50 years.

Another edit (I get 10 minutes!) For the most part Europe is run by failed politicians and outcasts, its no wonder its completely fucked. We should just get rid and have PMs as the single representative at the table. The US senate, while not perfect should be the model for EU government. Once that is in place and working maybe expanding to a Euro rep from each country, working closely with each counties government.

 

[Bodhi]

Actually - it'd be lose-lose for the EU and the UK.

Apart from the fact that we'd have to negotiate your magic 'Flexit', you'd find the EU playing seriously hardline - the way they did with Greece - to show other EU countries' populations the folly of leaving.

We'd get kicked. Very very hard.


But that's not my reason for wanting to stay. It's just another nail in the coffin of arguments for leaving.

Woah. That's a lovely bunch of people you want us to stay in a union with if what you're saying is true.

Which of course it isn't, as the EU's own convention dictates they be nice to their neighbours.

 

[Scouse]

Look at the EU/US trade deal to see how Europe is heading. That shit needs shredding, fast. It wont be though, power has been firmly placed in the lap of multi-nationals.

That isn't progress.

The nature of political reform aside I do find it strange that you repeatedly bring up TTIP as a supporting argument.

It's the UK government that's pushing hardest for this - if we were out we'd have that or worse dumped in our lap.

Also, it has to be ratified by all 28 member states. The French have said they won't pass it in it's current form so being in the EU is actually protecting UK citizens from the ravages of it's own government.

Ditching the EU is tantamount to self-harming whichever angle you look at it.

 

[Scouse]

Woah. That's a lovely bunch of people you want us to stay in a union with if what you're saying is true.

They're not idiots. It'd politically be the correct thing to do.

Wishful thinking on your side apart, we'd get pummeled.

 

[Raven]

The nature of political reform aside I do find it strange that you repeatedly bring up TTIP as a supporting argument.

It's the UK government that's pushing hardest for this - if we were out we'd have that or worse dumped in our lap.

Also, it has to be ratified by all 28 member states. The French have said they won't pass it in it's current form so being in the EU is actually protecting UK citizens from the ravages of it's own government.

Ditching the EU is tantamount to self-harming whichever angle you look at it.

Nonsense. It will be ratified. The corps have already issued their edicts, its a done deal.

I don't care who has pushed for it, its poison. Its pretty much agreed that our government are scum (but at least they aren't Milliband) I don't think it makes any difference. Europe should fuck it off, otherwise, what is the point of them/it?

 

[Job]

The daughters boyfriend is Greek Cypriot and as you can imagine is over the Moon about Turkey joining the EU, how the fuck are they going to sort out Turkeys invasion of Cyprus, when they are both in the EU...oh yes I remember...fuck Greece.

 

[Scouse]

I don't care who has pushed for it, its poison.

That's convenient when it's the UK government that's backing it hardest and yet it's the EU you hate for it.

Your position is so desparately self-contradictory.

Its pretty much agreed that our government are scum (but at least they aren't Milliband)

Again funny. Miliband wouldn't have signed it, but the Tories would in a flash.

In fact, Labour are standing on their own Remain ticket - refusing to stand on the same platform as the Tories - because TTIP is one of the things they're pushing back against. And their natural allies against TTIP are all in Europe...

 

[Raven]

Actually, Labour are doing what they are told by the unions while not actually believing a word of it themselves.

 

[DaGaffer]

The EU wants..and will probably get by flashing other peoples money...a superstate that includes many North African countries, they will..have discussed and been encouraged by Labour in the past to offer a special membership that includes trade, the Euro and free movement of citizens.
Countries like Morocco, Libya, Chad etc will eventually become members in an attempt to either rebuild them or reduce terrorism...it is the obvious next step, to just keep swallowing countries so they aren't a problem on the border.
The EU has no final plan, just security by assimilation.

I think this is your size

 

[Job]

They have allready created this.

Along with the 28 EU member states, 15 Southern Mediterranean countries are members of the UfM: Albania, Algeria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Mauritania, Monaco, Montenegro, Morocco, Palestine, Syria (suspended), Tunisia and Turkey. Libya is an observer.

Sounds great on paper...lets build a big gang and we can all be best mates.

 

[Job]

Heres a really cool interactive map of where the worlds migrants are from and going to.
Origins and Destinations of the World’s Migrants, from 1990-2015

 

[Bodhi]

Good article on the case for joining the EEA below:

Evolution Not Revolution

 

[Embattle]

I'm not really convinced this exactly helps the remain campaign - JP Morgan warns of Brexit jobs threat - BBC News

 

[Deebs]

Fuck me, the crap I have seen from both the leave and remain has concreted my vote even more. As as aside, I spoke to my kids., wow, their views and votes are differernt. Anyway fuck the German European Government. We shall not be ruled.

 

[Raven]

I think it boils down to whether we want to continue doffing the cap to the multinationals (like JP Morgan) or whether we take a stand and tell them to fuck off. There has to be a point where we take a stand. France, Germany and the Netherlands will follow (as said before, nobody actually cares about anyone else) Their governments opinion is irrelevant. The remain lot are terrified of their masters.

Europe should be working to improve the shitty countries, not only in Europe but Africa too. Rather than giving people a "free" house they should be making it so that they do not want to move.

Immigration is obviously an issue, we cannot continue to take in so many in such a short period of time, there just aren't the houses for it. I know the Tories think affordable housing starts at 400k but in the real world it just isn't. Crazy population growth equals crazy house prices - supply/demand, the simplest of economics. How the fuck are young people supposed to afford a mortgage, let alone a deposit these days? We just cannot keep up with demand.

 

[caLLous]

Fuck me, the crap I have seen from both the leave and remain has concreted my vote even more. As as aside, I spoke to my kids., wow, their views and votes are differernt. Anyway fuck the German European Government. We shall not be ruled.

Seriously, what's the end game for the leavers? I don't think I've heard a single reason other than "muhhhhhh Europe tells us what to do" (which they clearly fucking don't). Banking could move to Paris or Brussels or Munich overnight and what else does Britain do any more? Car industry? Nope. Unless we're relying on Morgan. Renault/Nissan are up in the air about the Sunderland plant, Toyota are waiting to see what happens before dedicating to production in the UK. Britain imports more than it exports, how is it going to be in any sort of position to set up trade deals on its own? And any trade deals that are set up will take *years* to come into effect. What about agriculture? I saw Johnson on Countryfile the other day, he didn't have a single straight answer to give about subsidies or any other issue affecting farmers. Will Britain be able to guarantee prices to farmers if they Brexit? Will they fuck. Because nobody has a single idea what's going to happen. But yay because the country will fail on its own without being attached to the EU right?!

And Johnson is only in it because he sees it as his best shot at Tory leadership.

 

[Deebs]

Seriously, what's the end game for the leavers? I don't think I've heard a single reason other than "muhhhhhh Europe tells us what to do" (which they clearly fucking don't). Banking could move to Paris or Brussels or Munich overnight and what else does Britain do any more? Car industry? Nope. Unless we're relying on Morgan. Renault/Nissan are up in the air about the Sunderland plant, Toyota are waiting to see what happens before dedicating to production in the UK. Britain imports more than it exports, how is it going to be in any sort of position to set up trade deals on its own? And any trade deals that are set up will take *years* to come into effect. What about agriculture? I saw Johnson on Countryfile the other day, he didn't have a single straight answer to give about subsidies or any other issue affecting farmers. Will Britain be able to guarantee prices to farmers if they Brexit? Will they fuck. Because nobody has a single idea what's going to happen. But yay because the country will fail on its own without being attached to the EU right?!

And Johnson is only in it because he sees it as his best shot at Tory leadership.

Um, make a law that contradicts Brussels. See how fast it gets shit on. We are governed by by the EU. Try buying a hoover with a 2KW motor, they are targeting kettles now. My stance has always been "let us govern ourselves with the government we voted for". That has not changed.

 

[caLLous]

Ok so that's Brexit in a nutshell. Now let's talk about manufacturing, services, trade deals, imports/exports, movement of labour... all the actual important stuff that affects relationships between countries.

 

[Deebs]

Ok so that's Brexit in a nutshell. Now let's talk about manufacturing, services, trade deals, imports/exports, movement of labour... all the actual important stuff that affects relationships between countries.

sweet mary, are you Cameron? Fuck me, grow a pair of bollox. Either way we will be ok.

 

[caLLous]

I'm Cameron because I want to talk about actual issues which is something Brexiters seem to be shying away from. "We will be ok" isn't exactly a compelling argument.