Politics So...Europe then?

[Scouse]

It should not be up to government though.

This.

 

[Urgat]

Serious question.

Can anyone point me in the direction of unbiased information on the pros and cons of both sides of the argument, please?

I am finding it hard to make an informed choice here to be honest.

 

[ECA]

unbiased information on the pros and cons of both sides of the argument, please?

lol.

 

[Urgat]

lol.

 

[Raven]

The BBC, the bastion of unbiased reporting.

...Oh wait.

 

[Raven]

I think I must have woken in a different reality today. Corbyn is actually talking sense. Lots of bollocks from both sides and the EU-US trade deal should get in the sea.

 

[Scouse]

Both major government parties support remain, with a few dissenters in each of their ranks not.

I wouldn't say the BBC is biased - they report all the arguments. However, there are a lot more arguments in favour of remaining. IMF, OECD, ECHR, environmental legislation, worker's rights, other EU countries and the US saying they'll impose tarrifs on UK goods if we leave (which they will), yadda yadda yadda.

Brexit is a rage against the establishment and elites, however - either way the vote goes elites win. We'll cut our noses off to spite our faces.

 

[Raven]

They would impose large tariffs if they didn't like exporting or making money yes. Meanwhile, in the real world, it would be in Europe and America's best interests to get tariffs agreed sharpish. Besides which, there are more countries in the world than those in Europe.

Its all scaremongering from the establishment and not a lot would change in the long run, except we could agree and trade with who we please and how we please.

Besides, Europe is a sinking ship. Get out early, get ourselves sorted out.

 

[BloodOmen]

It's all coming apart now, French voters are now demanding a referendum on leaving Europe as well.

 

[Scouse]

Its all scaremongering from the establishment

That's what the people who don't like the economic arguments being put forward say.

Don't like the argument? "Oooh, it's scaremongering by people who think they're better than us" /ignore.


Aside from the economic argument they've solidly lost, Brexit have already come out and said they're desparate to scrap the environmental legislation that is beginning to turn our environment around - you know, the stuff that's giving us cleaner beaches and rivers and the ability to challenge our government for the disgusting air quality that's killing loads of us.

But establishment haters will be haters. There is literally NO argument that can convince brexiters. They just want out, and they don't really give a shit about the cost.

 

[Raven]

Stop talking bollocks. Prove that those things wouldn't have been done anyway.

You know we have functioned as a country outside of the EU right?

Grow a spine.

 

[Scouse]

Grow a spine.

What, because I'm not stupid enough to ignore the economic, environmental and social arguments for remaining in the EU - arguments I already knew and supported before this shit kicked off because it's bleeding obvious - I'm now spineless??!

Okayyyy...

Brexit have said there's going to be a "bonfire of regulations" - and they've specifically come out and said they're going to scrap the EU's environmental legislations because they're too onerous (i.e. not profitable).

Grow a spine yourself - vote to stay in the EU, with all it's difficulties and contradictions, and work on reform - or give into your weak inner isolationist and cut us adrift from our allies and friends...

 

[Raven]

haha, yeah, ok.

 

[Scouse]

haha, yeah, ok.

Good argument.


Aaaanyway. In other news - this is very interesting, didn't know it'd got that far

 

[Job]

Its not about the fucking economy and this obsession with 20 quid here or there in peoples pay packets...we have joined an EU that now wants TOTAL control of it's citizens...Europe wide tax, prisons, army, laws, building regs, immigration, money, courts, insurance ,foreign policy...all controlled by an unelected dictatorship...this is happening in front of our very eyes and people are happy to be paid off with the threats of losing a few quid.
The advantages of the EU are the same goddam advantages of any federal dictatorship.
'Oh we have special trade...we can claim benefits anywhere...they helped build this homeless centre...we get cheap flights'
What a pathetic rolling over by communist sympathisers, really, we are about to give EVERYTHING to a EU superstate, run by Germany no less...and don't say it isn't...we have really lost the plot.

 

[Raven]

Good argument.


Aaaanyway. In other news - this is very interesting, didn't know it'd got that far

Yeah, interesting to see its not exclusive to European nations too...

 

[Scouse]

Yeah, interesting to see its not exclusive to European nations too...

Never said it was? Are you so bitter that you can't actually discuss something that is happening over in Europe tho?

 

[Raven]

Bitter about what? You are the one getting yourself in a flap...

Just noting that you are posting a good example of something we could still do with Europe while not being part of Europe.

 

[Fweddy]

Got my postal vote yesterday. I've voted remain.

 

[Wij]

Will the EU attempt to impose the French-style hairy fanny across Europe? Frankly I'm not sure whether I like that better than placing myself firmly mid-atlantic with a bald growler or a Hitler-cut.

Toughest question in a generation tbh.

 

[old.user4556]

Hairy. Not enough hairy fannies. Nothing more arousing than seeing a lady in knickers packing a serious hamster.

 

[Wij]

Hairy. Not enough hairy fannies. Nothing more arousing than seeing a lady in knickers packing a serious hamster.

Those are trannies. Different thing.

 

[old.user4556]

Those are trannies. Different thing.

I'm not fussy.

If I vote to leave, can i still suck off my girlfriend? What?

 

[Wij]

I'm not fussy.

If I vote to leave, can i still suck off my girlfriend? What?

If you want me to make your tea you will.

 

[TdC]

Its not about the fucking economy and this obsession with 20 quid here or there in peoples pay packets...we have joined an EU that now wants TOTAL control of it's citizens...Europe wide tax, prisons, army, laws, building regs, immigration, money, courts, insurance ,foreign policy...all controlled by an unelected dictatorship...this is happening in front of our very eyes and people are happy to be paid off with the threats of losing a few quid.
The advantages of the EU are the same goddam advantages of any federal dictatorship.
'Oh we have special trade...we can claim benefits anywhere...they helped build this homeless centre...we get cheap flights'
What a pathetic rolling over by communist sympathisers, really, we are about to give EVERYTHING to a EU superstate, run by Germany no less...and don't say it isn't...we have really lost the plot.

it's *always* about the economy

 

[Bodhi]

Must admit the more I read up about it the more appealing the 3Rd way becomes - Flexcit, or the soft exit. Leave the EU, but stay in the EEA, a la our Norwegian friends.

Sure, we have to keep the borders open (not that I'm too bothered about that) and we'd still have to pay into the EU budget (at a massively reduced rate) but would give us back control of things like agriculture and fishing, and massively reduce the amount of EU laws we have to bother with.

Sounds like win win to me personally.

 

[Scouse]

Sounds like win win to me personally.

Actually - it'd be lose-lose for the EU and the UK.

Apart from the fact that we'd have to negotiate your magic 'Flexit', you'd find the EU playing seriously hardline - the way they did with Greece - to show other EU countries' populations the folly of leaving.

We'd get kicked. Very very hard.


But that's not my reason for wanting to stay. It's just another nail in the coffin of arguments for leaving.

 

[Raven]

I imagine its all single issue with you, no bigger picture.

Germany and France will have left the EU within the next 10 years. The question is, do we want to be the ones left holding our balls or do we want to be set up to welcome them into the singles club?

 

[Scouse]

Germany and France will have left the EU within the next 10 years.

Yeah sure. And you base this on what?

I mean, you do like to make statements like "it's all breaking up"- but frankly, other than the crisis of our economic system (which is a global, not European, crisis) what are you basing this on? A hunch? Some conspiracy website?


Even if you're right (you're not):

do we want to be the ones left holding our balls or do we want to be set up to welcome them into the singles club?

If it happens anyway (which it won't) all we'd do is kick ourselves into economic penury now for the same deals we'd end up getting later. We'd just get poorer quicker.

 

[Raven]

The simple fact that the people are demanding it. It would be political suicide to not offer them the choice. I know its all butterflys and unicorns in your world but unfortunately that is just not reality. Your mate and mine, pigfucker, really dig fuck the pig when he gave us the choice, the French and Germans are increasingly wanting it too.

Nobody cares about the cling-on countries, they are surplus to requirements now.