Politics So...Europe then?

[Scouse]

Theresa May and her policies scare the crap out of me. She's straight out of 1984.

Yep

 

[Raven]

Yep

But she won't drop it if we remain? ...or?

 

[Scouse]

But she won't drop it if we remain?

As I explained very clearly many pages ago - she can't.

Being a member of Europe means you're mandatory members of the ECHR. And quite rightly so.

 

[DaGaffer]

In fact the more I watch that the more cringe worthy it is.

Points it makes:

The right to a fair trial ( Magna Carta )

...if you a were a noble. Magna Carta did shit for the average peasant. It was a start point, nothing more, and the British haven't been very good on the whole "fair trial" thing whenever they've been given the opportunity, up to and including "the war on terror". With a free pass to do what the fuck they'd like we'd have transportation for poor people (to the Falklands probably) and rendition for anyone with a beard to whoever offered the best deal on pliers and battery chargers.

Right to Privacy ( that stopped our newspapers abusing peoples privacy eh? , not like newspapers tapped murder victims families phones and printed stories about them - oh wait max mosley got some money out of it ).

All the progress on limiting the excesses of American corporations is coming from Europe. Sure its not what it could be, but data protection laws would be laxer under laissez faire Tory policies.

Freedom from torture/degrading treatment ( uh we outlawed that in 1640... )

Unless we were doing it ourselves. Or you were brown. Or Irish.

Freedom of religion/expression/discrimination ( I can't even. )

From the country where you have to be CofE to be king. Please don't pretend our best instincts are to be all cum by yah and tolerant, they're not.

Freedom from Slavery ( 1805-1834, debateable when we got rid of it for ourselves/empire/colonies etc. )

Yes, but see the last point, who actually wrote the ECHR?

Protecting victims of domestic violence ( don't know too much about the echr / our domestic violence laws to be honest, but lamping your missus has been illegal since before we joined the eu ).

Protecting victims doesn't mean what you think it does. Its not preventing them from the initial violence, as that's impossible, its given them protection from further abuse.

Northern Island Peace Process. ( again no clue how it'd affect that ).

Because the ECHR was built into the Good Friday agreement to ensure things like internment couldn't happen in NI again (see point 1 about fair trial).

I actually thought it was a shite video, but the absolute most important thing; we wrote the fucking thing back when we actually saw ourselves as the moral compass for a wrecked Europe. If I thought for even a second that we still had that moral compass and said we were going to ditch the ECHR and replace it with something better, I say ditch away; but this is Theresa May and the Tories. Get real.

 

[Scouse]

Yip.

 

[Embattle]

TTIP trade talks: Greenpeace leak 'shows risks of EU-US deal' - BBC News

 

[Embattle]

EU referendum: Cameron warns UK exit could put peace at risk - BBC News

Jesus Christ seriously Dave give it a rest.

 

[Wij]

*invade Poland*

 

[Gwadien]

EU referendum: Cameron warns UK exit could put peace at risk - BBC News

Jesus Christ seriously Dave give it a rest.

I agree, even for the undecided, the fear of the break down of peace is kinda ridiculous, nations being united hasn't ever stopped wars in the past.

 

[Raven]

Stupid notion, from an ever more desperate man.

 

[Scouse]

Jesus Christ seriously Dave give it a rest.

Considering how we've spent so long at war with our European neighbours and given the fact that the EU's primary purpose is to provide stability to our permawar region of the planet - which it has been doing very successfully - I think the onus falls on you to provide an argument on why we won't start sliding back into nationalistic bitchiness and war.

 

[Raven]

Because it is in nobodies interest to do so. Plus it would be bad for business, your beloved corporations wouldn't allow it.

 

[Wij]

Because it is in nobodies interest to do so. Plus it would be bad for business, your beloved corporations wouldn't allow it.

I don't think Scouse is a lover of all things Corporationy. He's more Tim Robbins:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kswx1WqsTk4

 

[Scouse]

Matt Damon thankyouverymuch @Wij

Because it is in nobodies interest to do so. Plus it would be bad for business, your beloved corporations wouldn't allow it.

Bad for some business - and that never stopped war before...

 

[Jupitus]

I agree that this stay campaign is a dreary onslaught of scaremongering, but then the other day my Mum told me she want a stay vote because 'it was uniting Europe to prevent war that started the whole thing off'.... so there must be some method in Cam's madness in that there is a social profile with votes he can win through this message.... it's all pants, mind

 

[Scouse]

I think humans are complacent and the madness of war is very clear. Add to that we like to think of ourselves as rational actors.

But we're not. We regularly and often choose to act like utterly rabid dogs, on both a personal and state level...

 

[Embattle]

Yet ironically you and some others are under the belief the EU could stop it....no nothing else just the EU which is hysterical since it stands as good a chance of causing one as it does of stopping one in the current climate. I've stated before about what I believe actually helped stop another proper European war to world war and I won't rehash old arguments again, either way it wasn't the EU.

 

[Scouse]

Yet ironically you and some others are under the belief the EU could stop it....

A) Are we not in the longest period of European peacetime ever?
B) When was the last time we were at war?
C) What did we do to prevent such a war happening again?

See what I did there?

I get you're a nationalist and that you see nothing wrong with nationalism. Fair enough. :shrug:

 

[Job]

I think we've been through this, it's nuclear weapons, not the EU, we nailed the most likely country to the floor after the war, Nato contained the Balkans war (The US).
Any likely war is with Russia...and guess why......because the EU is land grabbing right up to it's border, starting an EU army and letting a million strong Turkish army in.
Without the EU , Russian relations would be much more cordial.

 

[Gwadien]

Poor Russian relations are down to NATO, not the EU, I'm pretty sure if Iran invaded France, we'd declare war on Iran due to the NATO, not the EU.

 

[Job]

Well yes, we have to defend ourselves, the EU wouldn't get involved anymore than spending two months getting a team together to think about it over Lobster and Moet.
I'm pretty sure the EU is the main problem for Russia, Nato is a natural defence force, the EU is empire building on their doorstop.
On a side note Putin is the most admired person in power on the planet, beating the Pope and Dali Lahmer, while Junckers is pretty well a nobody.

 

[Embattle]

We have been through it many times, although in his lefty dreams he tends to forget but as I've said I won't rehash old arguments especially not with Scouse hence I tend to rate his posts rather than wasting my time engaging in the endless repetition that often happens.

PS I've also said it many times I've no problem with Europe or Europeans, just the institution known as the EU.

 

[Gwadien]

We have been through it many times, although in his lefty dreams he tends to forget but as I've said I won't rehash old arguments especially not with Scouse hence I tend to rate his posts rather than wasting my time engaging in the endless repetition that often happens.

PS I've also said it many times I've no problem with Europe or Europeans, just the institution known as the EU.

If you're referring to me, you should probably read what I post again

If not, NEVERMIND.

 

[Embattle]

It wasn't

 

[Gwadien]

It wasn't

Fuck you then Tory.

 

[Raven]

A) Are we not in the longest period of European peacetime ever?
B) When was the last time we were at war?
C) What did we do to prevent such a war happening again?

See what I did there?

I get you're a nationalist and that you see nothing wrong with nationalism. Fair enough. :shrug:

NATO

We are at war pretty much all the time, war is actually great for business. We have just moved that war abroad.

 

[DaGaffer]

I think we've been through this, it's nuclear weapons, not the EU, we nailed the most likely country to the floor after the war, Nato contained the Balkans war (The US).
Any likely war is with Russia...and guess why......because the EU is land grabbing right up to it's border, starting an EU army and letting a million strong Turkish army in.
Without the EU , Russian relations would be much more cordial.

Europeans not in the EU have fought European wars, Europeans in the EU have not. And that Turkish army, the one that's already part of NATO you mean? Seem to be having your cake and eating it there.

 

[Job]

Yeah, but if they are put under an EU army, that,s a whole dfferent kettle of fish and you know what the Russians think of muslims.

 

[Scouse]

Europeans not in the EU have fought European wars, Europeans in the EU have not.

Shush Gaff. @Embattle can ignore me, but if he reads the same argument off someone else then maybe he'll feel pressured into offering up a cogent counter-argument of some description!

 

[Raven]

Your argument is unprovable though...

There are loads of factors that have prevented war in Western Europe, for the most part its been business, not European Union. Also, the cold war probably stopped any traditional war from breaking out, both within Europe and globally (or, should I say, where anyone cares about) Add to that the treaties that were signed post war, along with NATO and the general lack of appetite for war.

That's before we get into all the crazy leaders kicking about at the beginning of the 20th century and their general unaccountability.