Politics So...Europe then?

[ECA]

David Camera-on / David Camera-off

 

[Wij]

Well, eehhh...no. The Elites (the ones who START wars) always went to France (and Germany and Italy), didn't stop them dragging the rest of us peons off to slaughter each other every few years. Scouse is mostly right, the EU is by far the biggest reason Europeans have gone from the most violent people on Earth, to the least, because it gave those selfsame elites a less risky way to wealth and power. The other big reason is of course the Cold War and effectively letting the Americans run our wars for us; and that chicken is now well and truly coming home to roost.

The elites did but now we all do and we have a vote to tell the elites where to shove their wars and we have access to learn about French, German and Italian people via television and the internet so that we can learn that they aren't the monsters our previous elites may have told us they were (yes I know this isn't perfect information yadda yadda yadda). The EU plays a part but the simple fact is people in Western Europe are (mostly) sophisticated, educated and civilised and would never support a war on our doorsteps (yes terrorism yadda yadda). No party that advocated a war with our neighbours would get within a mile of Downing St.

 

[Job]

Idiot. What's missing from your little analysis? Oh yeah, no-one in the EU has fought against each other. The EU keeps France and Germany from kicking each other to bits every fifty years and dragging the rest of us in with them. Not NATO, the EU, because it creates deep economic interdependence and common political outlook(ish) .



Well, eehhh...no. The Elites (the ones who START wars) always went to France (and Germany and Italy), didn't stop them dragging the rest of us peons off to slaughter each other every few years. Scouse is mostly right, the EU is by far the biggest reason Europeans have gone from the most violent people on Earth, to the least, because it gave those selfsame elites a less risky way to wealth and power. The other big reason is of course the Cold War and effectively letting the Americans run our wars for us; and that chicken is now well and truly coming home to roost.



WWI didn't put an end to European wars, hence WWII. One could definitely argue that the horrors of war should have made everyone forget about fighting each other, but it hasn't happened for most of human history. I actually don't think even the threat of nukes would have slowed down European enmities without something like the EU to bind the place together; historically we're an awful nasty bunch.

Nuclear weapons have stopped war in Europe, which has allowed peace to prosper, are you saying the peace caused itself?
The same argument is used by the greenpeace brigade,' we all get on fine, why do we need weapons?'
Er, we get on fine because of the weapons.

 

[DaGaffer]

The elites did but now we all do and we have a vote to tell the elites where to shove their wars and we have access to learn about French, German and Italian people via television and the internet so that we can learn that they aren't the monsters our previous elites may have told us they were (yes I know this isn't perfect information yadda yadda yadda). The EU plays a part but the simple fact is people in Western Europe are (mostly) sophisticated, educated and civilised and would never support a war on our doorsteps (yes terrorism yadda yadda). No party that advocated a war with our neighbours would get within a mile of Downing St.

Iraq War. How's that vote working out for ya?

 

[DaGaffer]

Nuclear weapons have stopped war in Europe, which has allowed peace to prosper, are you saying the peace caused itself?
The same argument is used by the greenpeace brigade,' we all get on fine, why do we need weapons?'
Er, we get on fine because of the weapons.

Nuclear weapons exist and plenty of countries, including inside Europe but outside the EU, still fight wars. Next.

 

[Shagrat]

Nuclear weapons exist and plenty of countries, including inside Europe but outside the EU, still fight wars. Next.

but it's the scale of the conflict isn't it (and I know I'm dehumanising it a bit but), there have been a number of 'regional' conflicts but nothing of the scale of the Napoleonic/First/Second with everyone piling in, it's that conflict escalation that nuclear weapons/NATO/etc. have helped to head off.

 

[Gwadien]

I disagree, I don't think nuclear weapons are a massive deterrent tbh.

We've been lucky not to have some absolutely bat shit crazy people in Government in Europe for a -very- long time.

Look at North Korea or Israel for instance, NK are constantly saying that they're prepping to pre-emptively nuke America before they get nuked, they're -openly- saying that, so if it was a deterrent, they should get nuked?

Israel - They're always saying how Iran are building nukes, and they'll pre-emptively attack them, if that isn't a declaration of war, I don't know the what the fuck is.

End of the day, if a mental leader takes over, the only chance he has is it hold onto power through nationalism and identity, it's the only way dictators have got away with it in the past, but in order to enforce that nationalism, they -have- to start doing things in the name of nationalism so that they're people are happily on side, and won't question the regime.

The Cold War would have happened even without the creation of nukes to be completely honest, I don't think the Americans and Russians are absolutely bat shit crazy, they understand if they declared war on each other, it would be a slogging competition, and it would only be a limited amount of time before uprisings happen within the country, which will threaten their power.

 

[Shagrat]

Look at North Korea or Israel for instance, NK are constantly saying that they're prepping to pre-emptively nuke America before they get nuked, they're -openly- saying that, so if it was a deterrent, they should get nuked?

There's a big difference being the rhetoric of saying your going to do something, and actually doing it.

 

[Raven]

Got the Tory propaganda in the post today. Went in the bin...not even going to bother recycling the fucking thing out of principle.

 

[Job]

So this is what the EU deem suitable to let in to expand their empire.


Turkey asks Germany to prosecute comedian for insulting Erdogan | News | DW.COM | 10.04.2016

 

[Gwadien]

There's a big difference being the rhetoric of saying your going to do something, and actually doing it.

Agree, and disagree.

In the past saying you were doing something was a declaration of war, and resulted in diplomatic means to fix it before it got too far - Munich Agreement.

Now, despots do say ridiculous things, but they largely get laughed off.

I'll ask you this, if North Korea have a missile and are about to send it off somewhere, would the US respond by nuking the shit out of North Korea or will they tactically attack it and possibly invade by more conventional means? - I believe the answer to this depends on whether you think a nuke is a deterrent or not.

 

[Wij]

Iraq War. How's that vote working out for ya?

Neighbours. It was in the sentence I wrote. Also we were talking about the EU keeping peace in Europe. Not Asia.

 

[DaGaffer]

Neighbours. It was in the sentence I wrote. Also we were talking about the EU keeping peace in Europe. Not Asia.

Oh come on, we were also talking about democracy stopping us from going to war in the first place, which pretty much never happens. Democracy can sometimes stop wars after they've started, but before? Not so much.

 

[Wij]

Oh come on, we were also talking about democracy stopping us from going to war in the first place, which pretty much never happens. Democracy can sometimes stop wars after they've started, but before? Not so much.

We were talking about Europe and knowing our neighbours. The population knew bugger all about Iraq.

 

[Raven]

Agree, and disagree.

In the past saying you were doing something was a declaration of war, and resulted in diplomatic means to fix it before it got too far - Munich Agreement.

Now, despots do say ridiculous things, but they largely get laughed off.

I'll ask you this, if North Korea have a missile and are about to send it off somewhere, would the US respond by nuking the shit out of North Korea or will they tactically attack it and possibly invade by more conventional means? - I believe the answer to this depends on whether you think a nuke is a deterrent or not.

They would not nuke them back. Regardless of what the North Koreans say, there is no way on earth they have a viable warhead, let alone the means to hit American soil with it and there would be no real point in nuking them back. Mostly due to Korea's location, it would be strategic suicide for the US.

The nuclear deterrent is there to guarantee that if anyone is stupid enough to launch a large scale nuclear attack then they would also become a wasteland.

Mutual assured destruction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It probably stopped the cold war from developing into a "proper" war but had virtually no impact on an internal EU war.

 

[DaGaffer]

We were talking about Europe and knowing our neighbours. The population knew bugger all about Iraq.

And if they did? Would that have made a blind bit of difference? If the Spanish invaded Gibraltar tomorrow do you think that the fact that we've all been to Torremolinos would stop a counter-attack? It wouldn't get to put to the popular vote, that's for certain.

 

[Wij]

And if they did? Would that have made a blind bit of difference? If the Spanish invaded Gibraltar tomorrow do you think that the fact that we've all been to Torremolinos would stop a counter-attack? It wouldn't get to put to the popular vote, that's for certain.

And the Spanish would not do it for the same reasons. They do not want military action against someone well-armed and in their own back yard. Spanish voters wouldn't want it.

 

[DaGaffer]

And the Spanish would not do it for the same reasons. They do not want military action against someone well-armed and in their own back yard. Spanish voters wouldn't want it.

That's a different argument

 

[Gwadien]

All it takes is a fanatical leader who manages to play on people's sense of nationalism, nukes or not, they'll do stupid shit.

It's kind of odd to suggest otherwise, we haven't had a crazy leader since WW2, so no-one has managed to do this, but I can see Israel/NK (If they're capable) of doing stupid shit in the name of nationality, regardless of the fact Russia could be like WTFLOL and end up nuking them.

 

[Wij]

That's a different argument

No it's not. The Spanish are also democratic, well educated, nearby and in the EU.

 

[Job]

Some good news at last.

What people living in the Middle East really think of Isis

 

[Deebs]

Seems there is a movement for the #Brexit camp to return the "fact" book so I shall be sending mine back to

Attn: Joanna George
Freepost RSBB-XRZT-ZTXE
The Conservative Party Foundation
30 Millbank
LONDON
SW1P 4DP

So the Conservatives have to pay my postage for unsolicited junk mail. Lovely

 

[Raven]

I think this propaganda leaflet has actually swayed me to vote out. If the in crowd and the "elite" are so willing use such underhand tactics and waste taxpayers money to get me to vote to remain then fuck'um.

I think it would also see pigfucker stand down, which has to be a win.

 

[DaGaffer]

I think this propaganda leaflet has actually swayed me to vote out. If the in crowd and the "elite" are so willing use such underhand tactics and waste taxpayers money to get me to vote to remain then fuck'um.

I think it would also see pigfucker stand down, which has to be a win.

To be replaced by Osborne or the arch-opportunist Boris. Lovely.

 

[Raven]

I am increasingly of the opinion that who the PM is makes virtually no difference whatsover. The current one fucks farm animals and nobody bats an eyelid. Business is who decides policy.

I don't like his face though and I am quite fond of bacon.

 

[Wij]

I am increasingly of the opinion that who the PM is makes virtually no difference whatsover. The current one fucks farm animals and nobody bats an eyelid. Business is who decides policy.

I don't like his face though and I am quite fond of bacon.

Glazed bacon?

 

[caLLous]

The current one fucks farm animals and nobody bats an eyelid.

Perhaps that's because there's precisely zero evidence to support the claim. You've obviously made your mind up, though.

 

[Embattle]

Some good news at last.

What people living in the Middle East really think of Isis

I don't think it is surprising at all personally, at best the majority in Isis areas are probably hoping to just to get on with their lives in a terrible situation.

 

[TdC]

the Ukraine..as expected is in even though the Dutch voted against it...rather obvious that was going to happen

two things:
1: NL referendum was an 'advisory'. This meant that the cabinet had to take it in to account but did not have to change their decisions according to the outcome.
2: Tbh all the business stuff has been decided yonks ago. I'm not a tinfoil hat wearer usually...but I would be quite surprised if large contracts by the Oil, fabrication and pharma/GMO companies don't surface soon.

 

[Job]

Thats exactly the point..the EU has quite simply become a dictatorship, because that's the way you get things done, Hitler would be proud.