Politics So...Europe then?

[Bodhi]

I'm also guessing the date for Easter keeps changing because Jesus and his mates turned that much of the Sea of Galilee into a nice Château Neuf du Pape that he lost 3 days sleeping it off in a cave somewhere, and as a result, no one is entirely sure when they started.

I'll also assume the Crucifixion refers to Mrs Christ's reaction when he finally made it home.

Because let's face it we've all been there

 

[Scouse]

Here's a rather good thing the EU is doing. Does that influence your thinking @Deebs?

 

[Deebs]

Here's a rather good thing the EU is doing. Does that influence your thinking @Deebs?

I am aware of that bill and it scares the living shit out of me as it is not a tool to fight terrorism but merely mass surveillance of the peons. However, it is merely attempting to legalise the illegal activities already happening by various parts of the Government.

What will happen is that they become more ineffective, already happened to the NSA, as they receive too much crap and cannot see the real crucial bits of information. They are dumb fuckers who think they can control mathematics but I suspect it will get halted at Lords stage. The whole world is currently watching this particular piece of lawmaking and many tech giants, lawyers, activists etc have all raised concerns.

Would I want to stay inside EU to stop this bill, fuck no. I am still voting to leave.

 

[DaGaffer]

I am aware of that bill and it scares the living shit out of me as it is not a tool to fight terrorism but merely mass surveillance of the peons. However, it is merely attempting to legalise the illegal activities already happening by various parts of the Government.

What will happen is that they become more ineffective, already happened to the NSA, as they receive too much crap and cannot see the real crucial bits of information. They are dumb fuckers who think they can control mathematics but I suspect it will get halted at Lords stage. The whole world is currently watching this particular piece of lawmaking and many tech giants, lawyers, activists etc have all raised concerns.

Would I want to stay inside EU to stop this bill, fuck no. I am still voting to leave.

The Lords can't stop anything, just delay.

 

[Scouse]

The Lords can't stop anything, just delay.

This.

Only the human rights legislation that was constructed to protect citizens from their own governments can help - and the brexiters want us out of that.

I think people are too trusting and without direct experience of how bad governments can turn think 'oh this shit'll never happen in this day and age' - but are hugely mistaken.

 

[Job]

Ca

Here's a rather good thing the EU is doing. Does that influence your thinking @Deebs?

Can I do a megalol on that one, UK survellance of Europe is beyond the law and always will be as part of US interests.

 

[Scouse]

Your post doesn't even make sense internally, @Job.

 

[Job]

Those data retention rules are just the fluff on top of europes largest data gathering network, the UK spies, retains and shares information gathered from Europe en masse, we track phone calls, txt messages on every EU nation we can manage, all government communications and allow the US access to it, we are their EU spy headquarters and they are just trying to trim the edges here.

 

[Embattle]

Either you know about it or you don't, it doesn't have any effect on it actually happening.

 

[Raven]

This.

Only the human rights legislation that was constructed to protect citizens from their own governments can help - and the brexiters want us out of that.

You're cherry picking.

If people are going to make the right decision then they have to look at everything they can in the short time we have left to decide.

 

[Wij]

These Tory messages show us why faith has no place in politics | Zoe Williams

 

[Scouse]

You're cherry picking.

Far from it.

From the very beginning I've framed the whole debate as a single-issue thing. I've repeatedly stated the biggest overriding factor, that trumps all others by a country mile, is the security of EU citizens.

I've been totally consistent in this and I'm glad you've accused me of cherry picking as it means you agree with me on this single issue.

No other issue/combination of issues trumps this one IMO.

 

[Raven]

But whether we are in Europe or not makes no difference to whether we adhere to it.

 

[Scouse]

But whether we are in Europe or not makes no difference to whether we adhere to it.

This argument carries zero weight.

For one, it's demonstrably incorrect - ECHR judgements have been adhered to and the very fact that there's pressure from certain politicians to 'leave' the human rights conventions is proof that they want to do things that the conventions prevent them from doing.


Secondly, and arguably more importantly, if what you said was true (which it isn't) then there'd be no need for the pretence of a rule of law, or sham democracy.

Yes, there are many and obvious abuses of law, due process etc., but they're only classed as abuses because there is law that attempts to hold people and institutions to account.

Saying 'bad shit happens anyway, therefore what does it matter' is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's a refusal to acknowledge that systems can be generally effective despite big imperfections.

UK withdrawal from human rights legislation (especially on such shonky intellctual ground) would have the worst sort of humans rubbing their hands with glee.

 

[Raven]

No, the point is, you appear to be basing your entire argument of remaining in Europe on something that, whether rightly or wrongly (an entirely different debate) can and probably will be ignored anyway.

 

[Bodhi]

And the fact that the UK have been leaders in Human Rights for centuries now, so I'm failing to see why that will cease to be the case if we were to leave.

 

[Ormorof]

And the fact that the UK have been leaders in Human Rights for centuries now, so I'm failing to see why that will cease to be the case if we were to leave.

Im sure many kenyans, indians, irish, iraqis and who knows how many others would 100% agree that britain has always been a shining beacon of human rights, a veritable example of goodness, peace and justice

 

[Job]

Human rights laws consistently let down the people who actually need them and are endlessly used as loopholes to protect individuals who are the celebrity cause of the month.
It is nothing but a shiny front painted over terrible abuses of power and it's removal at least would expose the reality of those who it ignores.

 

[Scouse]

whether rightly or wrongly (an entirely different debate) can and probably will be ignored anyway.

You've just stated the same argument there, without trying to rebuff mine.

They're clearly not being ignored and are causing an obstruction to some of the government's desired objectives. Which is why some are trying to take us out of them - because they want to do things that are prevented by them.

They're demonstrably doing their job.

@Job's argument is fallacious - it's taken straight from the daily fail or sun handbook of reducto ad absurdum - and proven wrong over the decades the laws have been in force. Human rights legislation, rightly, limits government power - and has been effective in doing exactly that - hence the righteous moral outrage of the right wing and undereducated.

In the absence of any rebuffal argument against mine, I stand fully by what I said. Security and freedom of citizens from the proven prime threat to citizens security and freedom (their own government) is granted by this legislation.

Regardless of economics, perceived "freedoms" (not ours, governmental freedoms, yes (the whole point!), but not public freedoms) gained from leaving the EU - this single issue is bigger than all the other arguments combined...

 

[Raven]

It's kind of odd you were whining about the danger of the Tories wanting to scrap those laws long before we had a referendum on offer then.

Which is it? The only way to keep said laws is to stay in Europe? Avoid a Tory government? What?

Do you now concede that the Tories could not scrap them regardless of whether we stay in Europe?

You need to go away and have a think about it old chap.

 

[Bodhi]

Im sure many kenyans, indians, irish, iraqis and who knows how many others would 100% agree that britain has always been a shining beacon of human rights, a veritable example of goodness, peace and justice

They don't count tho. They're foreign.

But then again we did kick the whole idea off with the Magna Carta. And most of the rules of the ECHR were based on legislation already in place in the UK.

 

[Job]

I don't take it from the Daily Mail, I take it from what is happening on the ground, if you are so convinced the act reigns in government, how come Europe turns a blind eye to the atrocities happening in our name, or does it only apply to EU citizens, it attracts celebrity self promoters like Clooneys missus and Cherie Blair who's entire use of the legislation is to milk every nook and cranny, totally against the spirit of it's intention.

 

[Scouse]

You need to go away and have a think about it old chap.

And you need basic education:

The European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) is an international treaty to protect human rights and fundamental freedoms in Europe. Drafted in 1950 by the then newly formed Council of Europe... All Council of Europe member states are party to the Convention and new members are expected to ratify the convention at the earliest opportunity.

The Convention established the European Court of Human Rights. Any person who feels his or her rights have been violated under the Convention by a state party can take a case to the Court. Judgments finding violations are binding on the States concerned and they are obliged to execute them. The Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe monitors the execution of judgements, particularly to ensure payment of the amounts awarded by the Court to the applicants in compensation for the damage they have sustained. The establishment of a Court to protect individuals from human rights violations is an innovative feature for an international convention on human rights, as it gives the individual an active role on the international arena (traditionally, only states are considered actors in international law).

The European Convention is still the only international human rights agreement providing such a high degree of individual protection.

Leaving Europe would substantially weaken my personal individual protection against the time-proven single biggest threat to my own liberty.

I'd provide the (misattributed but hugely accurate) relevant quotes, but you already know them...

 

[Scouse]

I don't take it from the Daily Mail, I take it from what is happening on the ground, if you are so convinced the act reigns in government, how come Europe turns a blind eye to the atrocities happening in our name, or does it only apply to EU citizens, it attracts celebrity self promoters like Clooneys missus and Cherie Blair who's entire use of the legislation is to milk every nook and cranny, totally against the spirit of it's intention.

Job - so you're answer to the anger you have about this (if you have it) is to scrap the only protections we have?

And replace them with what? (And how, given the people who want to scrap them don't want to replace them with something stronger, but something weaker?)

What is your point, again? Because you're bitter about your points above you want to fuck us over and hand more power to the people you profess to hate?

How would anything that you say, ever, help the common man you're so concerned about? Or are you just a whirling dervish, randomly raving like a madman?

 

[Raven]

And you need basic education:


Leaving Europe would substantially weaken my personal individual protection against the time-proven single biggest threat to my own liberty.

I'd provide the (misattributed but hugely accurate) relevant quotes, but you already know them...

Yes, I don't disagree. But you have previously stated that you believe the Tories will get rid of it, Europe or not. So which is it?

If you think the Tories will get rid of it even if we stay in Europe then what difference does it make?

 

[Job]

No one disagrees with the Human rights act, it's just that as with every bit of inconvenient legislation, it has been ignored when we need it and dragged out as a get out card when it suits.

 

[Scouse]

Neither of you two are making statememts or asking questions that are furthering anything. I've been clear so, for now, carry on amongst yourselves...

 

[Raven]

No, I am questioning your position. You are refusing to answer.

Actually, the only answer you are willing to give is that you are basing your entire decision on the human rights laws. The same laws that you have previously said would be scrapped by the Tories whether we stay in Europe or not.

From that I am saying your decision does not make sense.

Obviously the human rights laws are important...not fit for purpose...but important.

Its just another part of Europe that needs reform that will never get it because the gravy train keeps on a'trundling.

 

[Scouse]

You fail @Raven. We leave Europe and they won't be reformed, they'll be scrapped. Stay in and we cannot scrap them.

It's the Brexit members of the Tory party that want them scrapped and your and job's sort of idiocy plays into that. Leave Europe and get reform?? How??

Leave Europe and scrap our individual ability to hold the state to ultimate account on this incredibly important sort of thing.

Not fit for purpose? Hmmm. Another example of it doing it's job perfectly well.

Out of Europe and the De Menezes case would already be long closed.

 

[Raven]

erm...I am not arguing to leave Europe...I am undecided and will be basing me decision on a whole host of issues and I think it is incredibly important that everyone does the same.

And off you go again. The important bit.

You have stated in the past that they would be scrapped under the Tories. (I will find the quote later for you when I have time)

So either you were wrong, were scaremongering or just plain old making it up as you go along or have had a logic fail.