Politics So...Europe then?

[Bodhi]

Not sure who that's even aimed at, but looking at facts objectively doesn't make you perfect. just informed.... ignoring facts and coming to false conclusions makes you idiotic. those are just basic truths in any walk of life, academic, political, professional etc....

If there is a correlation between the way people that believe the media without a second thought vote, and those that question everythong vote then that should speak volumes. But if no one is listening it doesn't matter how loud it is.

Not sure, but there does seem to be a correlation at the moment, when one side of the argument starts sneering and talking down to the other side of the argument, and using choice words like "racist", "thick", "little Englander/Yank/etc", "mentally deficient", and all sorts of made up words like "post truth", they tend to come second when it comes to the ballot box. I would have thought the Democrats in the US would have learned from Brexit, but then Hillary calls Trump supporters a "Basket of Deplorables", and well, the rest is history.

I dunno, maybe if they engaged in a proper debate without feeling the need to demonstrate how much better they think they are than anyone who thinks differently, they might have more success.

Although looking at the recent posts in this thread, I suspect we're a long way away from that.

 

[Raven]

Yup. Pointless even trying to debate anything these days if you do not conform to the majority (or even vocal minority) view. Just let them get on with their faux indignation and do what you like.

Thought is a crime at the moment and people are still scratching their heads as to why it's getting worse, in-between screaming insults at anyone that they disagree with ofc.

Whether its because they are all special snowflakes who have never been challenged, who knows. Frankly, who cares. Just make sure your own house is in order and wait it out because the recoil is going to get even more painful.

 

[throdgrain]

Hence my comment.

 

[gohan]

Hence my comment.

No your comments are just as bad, if not worse. you add no view or debate you just stand on the sideline flinging shit. at least job engages (even if his sources are sketchy as fuck).

Everytime I've seen you in this thread it's just purely to insult someone. Although according to everyone else that's the left's porogative

 

[Ormorof]

yes for someone complaining about other acting perfect your tone in most threads is pretty high and mighty throd (and your response was pretty reactionary so perhaps gaff has a point )

there is more debate going on in last few months about serious issues than ive seen in years, this is, in my view, a good thing it shows people are actually thinking and talking about issues, however when the extremes on both sides are represented as "the voice of <insert political faction here>" who stubbornly refuse to acknowledge other views or even reality in many cases then of course there are going to be problems

as Raven has said most people just want to get on with their own shit and dont care that much either way, which is a problem, because when something big comes along that they really should care about, they dont act thus the low voter turnouts, the brexit referendum turnout was "high" at 72% which is kinda pathetic

the USA has ended up with a president that only about 25% of the voting population wanted enough to bother voting for him, Brexit happened because 37% of the electorate selected it over remaining

so why arent people voting? because they feel their votes dont matter, why? because most democracies are tied to some absurd ancient structure and changing it is left to politicians who benefit from the status quo you can vote for a change candidate all you like but when a party or candidate that got less votes can still win you get apathy

 

[gohan]

Not sure, but there does seem to be a correlation at the moment, when one side of the argument starts sneering and talking down to the other side of the argument, and using choice words like "racist", "thick", "little Englander/Yank/etc", "mentally deficient", and all sorts of made up words like "post truth", they tend to come second when it comes to the ballot box. I would have thought the Democrats in the US would have learned from Brexit, but then Hillary calls Trump supporters a "Basket of Deplorables", and well, the rest is history.

I dunno, maybe if they engaged in a proper debate without feeling the need to demonstrate how much better they think they are than anyone who thinks differently, they might have more success.

Although looking at the recent posts in this thread, I suspect we're a long way away from that.

Both sides are equally guilty of this; for every cry of racist or idiot there is a retort of arrogant, pompous, high horse, bully etc. etc.

I don't really care how people vote as long as they have researched it or have solid, valid reasons. Unfortunately most people vote with their hearts, with what their mate down the pub said, or with what they read on facebook or in the paper.

Those are dangerous votes because they don't know the bigger issue (and again it happens on both sides). That type of voting is however larger on the right as there's a feeling of being ignored or voices not being heard. But it is the political equivalent of taking a shit in your bed because your wife is pissing you off.... it's your bed too.

There is no answer to it because people are beyond seeing reason and the media hypes up the fear and resentment to the point that it becomes fact. Go down the pub or football club or anywhere where loads of different people gather (as at work it's likely to be biased to one side or the other) and ask people simple questions like how many imigrants are in the UK. Who's statistically more likely to commit rape, murder, robbery or fraud. You'll be surprised how far opinon and fact are from each other

 

[Bodhi]

So are you suggesting me voting to Leave to

a) get cheaper fags when travelling around Europe
b) piss of Michael O'Leary and his infernal life-sucking airline

aren't valid reasons?

 

[Raven]

yes for someone complaining about other acting perfect your tone in most threads is pretty high and mighty throd (and your response was pretty reactionary so perhaps gaff has a point )

there is more debate going on in last few months about serious issues than ive seen in years, this is, in my view, a good thing it shows people are actually thinking and talking about issues, however when the extremes on both sides are represented as "the voice of <insert political faction here>" who stubbornly refuse to acknowledge other views or even reality in many cases then of course there are going to be problems

as Raven has said most people just want to get on with their own shit and dont care that much either way, which is a problem, because when something big comes along that they really should care about, they dont act thus the low voter turnouts, the brexit referendum turnout was "high" at 72% which is kinda pathetic

the USA has ended up with a president that only about 25% of the voting population wanted enough to bother voting for him, Brexit happened because 37% of the electorate selected it over remaining

so why arent people voting? because they feel their votes dont matter, why? because most democracies are tied to some absurd ancient structure and changing it is left to politicians who benefit from the status quo you can vote for a change candidate all you like but when a party or candidate that got less votes can still win you get apathy

I kind of agree, voter apathy is a massive problem. But my point is that people do not listen to debate and certainly cannot be bothered to get involved in debate because the moment they say anything that is in any way different to the vocal opinion they just get insults thrown at them, bombarded by them. It is completely pointless getting involved so their opinion, regardless of whether it is right or wrong, does not change and never will change.

People have to engage and open debate absolutely has to happen or we will keep going until we hit the wall.

The whole Brexit thing was a complete shambles from both sides and frankly, we should be collectively ashamed. On both sides we had people just making things up coupled with ridiculous name calling and elitist snobbery. It is no wonder we got the result that we got. The exact same thing happened in America with Trump.

The funny thing is, the horse has long since bolted and people are still just hurling insults.

One of three things will happen very soon.

Either we leave as it is now regardless of parliament
Parliament have the final say, they bottle it and we leave
Parliament have the final say and we remain.

Option 1 we have a few years of uncertainty and we and the world move on.
Option 2 would be pretty much the same as option 1 but would mean Sith Lord May would be in power for the next decade with virtually no opposition.
Option 3 would lead to a huge amount of civil and political unrest and while the elitist left think they would win, they would lose, it would be the nearest thing to civil war for hundreds of years.

All this could have been avoided if the debate had happened in an open and fair manner, instead of the shitshow that western democracy is descending into.

I am not sure what has to happen to fix ourselves but option 3 would be disastrous. The only thing that is different between our choice and the American choice is that they can turtle for 4 years and it all goes away, one way or the other we are stuck with our choice.

 

[gohan]

Firstly, you can't keep complaining about being shouted down and insulted by 'elitist snobs' that's pure hypocrisy. "All those ugly cunts do is insult everyone"

But other than that I agree. I can't help but feel the fall of democracy in the west (and by that I mean people voting to 'stick it to the man' rather than engaging) is linked to capitalism having had it's day. The rich are getting richer at the expense of the poor getting poorer and it won't be long until we're back in the middle ages in terms of wealth gap. But fuck it, if democracy doesn't work maybe we should just give Feudalism another go .

Things will steadily get worse throughout our lives but there's another big change in the wind a few hundred years down the line. Either than or post nuclear waste land.

 

[Raven]

Well, I don't insult people for the beliefs, I do it because they are tools.

 

[caLLous]

Tools who happen to believe something other than what you believe. Ok, got it.

 

[gohan]

But calling someone stupid because they don't do any research and spout nonsense, isn't insulting someone for their beliefs either. It's because they're literally stupid. And if you point out that what they're saying is factually incorrect, yet they keep flogging that dead horse, what else can you do but call a spade a spade and move on.

 

[DaGaffer]

Not sure, but there does seem to be a correlation at the moment, when one side of the argument starts sneering and talking down to the other side of the argument, and using choice words like "racist", "thick", "little Englander/Yank/etc", "mentally deficient", and all sorts of made up words like "post truth", they tend to come second when it comes to the ballot box. I would have thought the Democrats in the US would have learned from Brexit, but then Hillary calls Trump supporters a "Basket of Deplorables", and well, the rest is history.

I dunno, maybe if they engaged in a proper debate without feeling the need to demonstrate how much better they think they are than anyone who thinks differently, they might have more success.

Although looking at the recent posts in this thread, I suspect we're a long way away from that.

It's difficult to argue with that, since that's what has happened, but even when rational, coherent arguments around economics or what's actually going on in the real world are used, the response is usually some variation of "elites/experts/unelected bureaucrats" etc. etc.

For every "basket of deplorables" comment, there were hundreds of actual political and economic arguments against Brexit and against Trump's policies. No-one was listening. If one side is making (impossible) promises and the other is basically saying "more of the same because this is the way the world is now", it's not surprising what happened. The problem is the promises are still impossible, and it's really hard not to sound patronising when you're pointing that out.

Now, you may say, "but they're not impossible" and I'd be happy to debate that, but fuck me, you've got Boris Johnson on your team; feeling good about those Article 50 negotiations are we? Really?

 

[Bodhi]

On phone so will reply properly later, but I see your Boris Johnson and raise you a Tony Blair / Alistair Campbell, the two most repugnant characters in modern UK politics. Yes, even worse than Farage.

 

[Raven]

Tools

Nope, pretty much just you and Scouse. Bigsoz

 

[gohan]

On phone so will reply properly later, but I see your Boris Johnson and raise you a Tony Blair / Alistair Campbell, the two most repugnant characters in modern UK politics. Yes, even worse than Farage.

There was a list floating around for all the supporters of both sides, don't get me wrong, I can't stand Blair and hated labour for his cabinet right up until Corbyn. But Boris is your A lister! Blair is our footnote

 

[Raven]

At least Boris can be funny and rugby tackles kids like a champ, Blair does great Christmas cards though so I am torn.

Also, without Alistair Campbell there would be no Malcolm Tucker!

 

[DaGaffer]

On phone so will reply properly later, but I see your Boris Johnson and raise you a Tony Blair / Alistair Campbell, the two most repugnant characters in modern UK politics. Yes, even worse than Farage.

Blair has no power, no influence, and besides, there is no remain argument anymore, so he's irrelevant. Boris is important and thereby terrifying

 

[Job]

So Merkel calls for a Burqa ban...there's the right influencing mainstream politics and it won't stop there.

Angela Merkel calls for burqa ban in Germany

 

[Raven]

She is just clutching at straws, her political career is basically over.

 

[throdgrain]

Look, I was going to read all that, but I can't be arsed , you bunch of twats.





























Only kidding. Look, the thing is, I type as I think. I type what I think. I don't feel the urge to back it up with google or various /url . I think Job does too quite a lot, then gets coated by some of you lot in a high and mighty fashion that really irritates me. And yes Job, I know you don't need anyone to fight your battles either.

This conversation has gone around and around for 112 pages so far, and most of it is just bollocks. I see loads and loads of foreigners where I live. I see the roads chock a block day and night. And the government respond by building more houses, and more roads, something I really dislike. So, that's what I think. I want less of it. I don't need any formulas or links to websites to tell me how I feel, I already know how I feel.

Last nights comment was in fairness fuelled by quite a lot of gin followed by JD, I didn't even know I'd done it tbh. Which isn't an apology either by the way either.

 

[gohan]

So your problem isn't really with foriegners, it's with overcrowding in general. the population has gone from 6 to nearly 9 billion in 20 years so unfortunately nothing can be done about it. No one likes it. It sucks dick, effects house prices and jobs ect. But just be thankful that we don't have the overcrowding that India, China, Japan etc has. Really America should do their part more as they have millions of square miles of unused land (5 times our population but something like 50 times our land mass). That said tho, what's the option? Just say I'm sorry you were born in a shit overcrowded country but you can't come here, if that means you die before you're 20 then tough shit, try harder to be born somewhere better next time? Personally I'd rather everyone's life was slightly shitter if the end result is millions of vastly improved lives

 

[Raven]

The solution is birth control but the people in backwards countries don't believe in it or whatever.

 

[Raven]

Edit. There is absolutely no reason why these countries are poor except for reasons created by themselves. Humans are humans, they are no less capable than we are.

 

[Bodhi]

The biggest concern I have around immigration, is I simply don't see how this country, with it's creaking infrastructure and lack of investment over the last 20 years, has a hope of supporting an extra 300,000+ people a year.

That's all. I have no concerns over who comes here, what colour they are or what sky fairy they worship (as long as they don't force it unto others).

Unless, of course, they're French.

 

[gohan]

Edit. There is absolutely no reason why these countries are poor except for reasons created by themselves. Humans are humans, they are no less capable than we are.

I don't even know where to start with this..... Firstly there is luck of the draw to how farmable the land is, weather conditions, suceptibility to natural disaster. Secondly luck of the draw to natural resources, oil, gas, gold, iron, diamonds etc. And finally, how raped they have been by other countries and empires throughout their history for both resources and slaves....


Survival of the fittest brah!! Fun fact, Europe rose to dominance because of superior weaponry created from need because we have never learned to get along with our neighbours. Then we go to Africa, India etc. where they have had relative peace throughout their (longer) existence and haven't needed weapons. So we fuck shit up! kill everyone, take slaves, take land, take resources. Get rich in short. Then the world changes, we're like, whoops soz have the land back. Just the land, nothing else. It's like eating someone's dinner and giving them the plate back then saying "how the fuck are you hungry, you have an empty plate in front of you"



As for population grown. The top 10 ranger from 3-9% (3-4.1% really Lebanon is a bit out an outlier that skewe the chart) whereas us, Canada, Australia and the u.s range from .6 to 1.5%.

It's really not a massive difference. Specially when you consider the tiny populations of half of the top ten. The world grows, people recreate. It's a thing. Blaming 'backwards' countries is arrogant and rediculous and is basically doing the same thing you acuse the left of. They're to stupid not to fuck themselves over so leave them to it while calling them names.....

 

[Raven]

Most of the countries were at war long before the west got there. Yes, the west took advantage, a loooong time ago. The fact that they were so much at war made divide and conquer so easy. Most have had revolution since, most have plenty of natural resources.

And yes, religious folk are by definition stupid, not using birth control because it might upset the sky fairy, is stupid, demonstrably so... especially when food is somehow scarce and HIV/Aids is rampant.

I am not saying we should just fuck them off and ignore them but surely as a planet we should be living where it most suits us, a naturally rich, naturally fertile country is surely better than here, where our only resource is basically services and banking. We are an importer of food, we cannot naturally support our population.

 

[Bodhi]

It's difficult to argue with that, since that's what has happened, but even when rational, coherent arguments around economics or what's actually going on in the real world are used, the response is usually some variation of "elites/experts/unelected bureaucrats" etc. etc.

For every "basket of deplorables" comment, there were hundreds of actual political and economic arguments against Brexit and against Trump's policies. No-one was listening. If one side is making (impossible) promises and the other is basically saying "more of the same because this is the way the world is now", it's not surprising what happened. The problem is the promises are still impossible, and it's really hard not to sound patronising when you're pointing that out.

Now, you may say, "but they're not impossible" and I'd be happy to debate that, but fuck me, you've got Boris Johnson on your team; feeling good about those Article 50 negotiations are we? Really?

The thing is though, if that was how the referendum had actually been run, I would have been in full agreement, and to be honest would have probably voted the other way, but that just wasn't how it appeared over here. If the experts and talking heads had focused on how great the EU was, rather than all the terrible things that would happen if we were to leave, I don't think we would be having this conversation.

 

[Job]

Of course the EU is good, they have brought in thousands of really sensible rules and standards, harmonised trade and made Europe a world force.....but.
Then they smelt power, an economic block turned into a political ambition, got a problem..'if only I had just a bit more power I could fix it'.
Bit by bit, they are on a march to treat the seperate countries as simply cash cows to fund their desires, nationality is a problem..resisting cultural destruction doesn't fit their agenda.
Well all of a sudden it does when they realise the proles are revolting.

 

[DaGaffer]

The thing is though, if that was how the referendum had actually been run, I would have been in full agreement, and to be honest would have probably voted the other way, but that just wasn't how it appeared over here. If the experts and talking heads had focused on how great the EU was, rather than all the terrible things that would happen if we were to leave, I don't think we would be having this conversation.

There were tons of positives, but the Gentlemen of the Press got more mileage out of Project Fear, because of course they did. And just like with the US election, we've now reached a world where people get their "news" via Facebook, which only tells them what they want to hear, because apparently searching for information on Google to understand the issues is for intellectual poofs.

How many people on either side do you reckon actually bothered to find out actual information about the issues for themselves?