Sept. 11th

[xane]

With great respect Perp, I have to say I agree with your views in principle, and many hold valid points, but succumbing to fanatical opinion does not help the situation.

My writing is normally guided by clear and concise information, I attempt to verify and validate any source I find as best as I can. If you start using fanatical rhetoric as a source then your writing becomes just as fanatically rhetoric. At least you admit that perhaps your sources are not as concise as you meant them to be, an error that I frequently admit to myself.

The middle-east situation has a long an bloody history, mistakes and atrocities have occurred on all sides, including (in no particular order) the American, Russian, Chinese and British. Failing to account for all sides of the argument is the biggest barrier to peace, fearing to admit that your own side has committed its share of tragic policies is what keeps people away from the negotiating table.

The diatribe of "jews run america" or "jews run business" or "jews run the media" is totally and utterly without foundation, it is frequently used by fanatical extremists to try and invoke fear and hatred as has been so for hundreds of years. I have many links in the jewish community and I can faithfully say I never encountered such a diverse and splintered group before, to imply that somehow jews have got together and finally agreed policies amongst themselves is itself unbelievable, to say they have gone on to inflitrate a huge empire together is bordering on miraculous.

The fact is that the world shares an equal amount of rich and powerful people from all cultures, in fact if anything the pro-Palestinian countries (arab and Iran) have the slight edge, there is no global conspiracy or world domination (except possibly by Microsoft).

I may have disputed your statement, but that does not imply I disagree with your overall view on the middle east situation, in fact you'll probably find me a supporter.

You find me hard evidence, not rhetoric, that jews run whatever, and I'll discuss it with you, but none of this sh*t you've brought up so far, it only goes to prove my point that its just a conspiracy theory spouted by angry extremists, not a reality.

 

[old.Aird Fitzdeagle]

Originally posted by Perplex
Nobody said they deserved it. My point was that this sort of thing has been happening to other nations for decades, and the americans havn't cared one little bit. Suddenly when it happens to them they expect the whole world to cry and grieve for them.

America has done worse to other nations for decades, yet they get a taste of their own medicine and they don't like it. I don't advocate the death of innocent individuals at all. Please stop being so overly emotional in such a stereotypical american way.

Ah, yes.. and we Europeans are all angels, right?
Well, someone else tried to tell you before, little hypocrit, that it is the GOVERNMENT of a country, not the PEOPLE living there, making decisions. You are really a bit thick, aren't you?

Get a taste of their own medicine? Well, than every bomb the IRA has ever placed in London is justified... how long has England dominated and terrorized Ireland? For freaking CENTURIES (yeah, using caps to make it a bit easier for you to understand...) -
oh, and before I get flames- I am not irish and I just used it as an example... the little hypocrit needs examples it seems...

"I don't advocate the death of innocent individuals at all."
Hypocrit! Change your nick into Hypocrates, kid.
So, according to your twisted logic, killing an (american, of course) baby is utterly wrong and against your view of the world...
but if that baby happens to be one victim amongst thousands of other because it was in the wrong daycare at the wrong time and place... then it is "an american who gets a taste of his/her own medicine..."
I admire your logic ...

Being overly emotional in such a stereotypical american way?
Wee... let me repeat it again, little fascist man... you are full of BS....

 

[Perplex]

Originally posted by Aird Fitzdeagle

blah blah blah...

Typecast overly dramatic American. Again, can't handle it when it happens to you. It's been happening in the UK for the past 30 years with the IRA - which your government funds. Hush, and run along now sonny - adults talking

 

[Perplex]

Sheesh, you rant like a child. Calm down, take deep breaths, pick all your toys up and put tham back into your pram.

 

[Embattle]

Originally posted by Aird Fitzdeagle


Ah, yes.. and we Europeans are all angels, right?
Well, someone else tried to tell you before, little hypocrit, that it is the GOVERNMENT of a country, not the PEOPLE living there making decisions. You are really a bit thick, aren't you?

Get a taste of their own medicine? Well, than every bomb the IRA has ever placed in London is justified... how long has England dominated and terrorized Ireland? For freaking CENTURIES (yeah, losing caps to make it a bit easier for you to understand...) -
oh, and before I get flames- I am not irish and I just used it as an example... the little hypocrit needs examples it seems...

"I don't advocate the death of innocent individuals at all."
Hypocrit! Change your nick into Hypocrates, kid.
So, according to your twisted logic, killing an (american, of course) baby is utterly wrong and against your view of the world...
but if that baby happens to be one victim amongst thousands of other because it was in the wrong daycare at the wrong time and place... then it is "an american who gets a taste of his/her own medicine..."
I admire your logic

Being overly emotional in such a stereotypical american way?
Wee... let me repeat it again, little fascist man... you are full of BS....

Aird Fitzdeagle at least have a clue what you're talking about and put it in a constructed way instead of the 4 year old ranting in the corner way you seem to be displaying right now and then just maybe someone will take notice.

 

[Perplex]

Originally posted by Embattle


Aird Fitzdeagle at least have a clue what you're talking about and put it in a constructed way instead of the 4 year old ranting in the corner way you seem to be displaying right now and then just maybe someone will take notice.

Exactly - It's fiunny that he calls me 'a child' when he writes exactly like one. Pot, kettle, black - just like the whole US scenario at the moment

 

[doh_boy]

Arid, I may be wrong, but I took what perplex was saying as

"The Americans wanted what was an american tragedy to be a world problem. IT WASN'T"

He had other p.o.v's which he expressed and which a few of us disagreed on, we didn't start namecalling.

I think the main point is this, killing people because they killed someone you liked is hypocritical. How can you say "life is sacred" and then proceed to kill someone?

The last few remarks, I think, were sorely needed.

 

[old.Aird Fitzdeagle]

LOL... Embattle.. uhm.. do YOU have a clue what your are talking about? What did I talk about? Did you actually read it or did you just hit quote?

Originally posted by Perplex


Typecast overly dramatic American. Again, can't handle it when it happens to you. It's been happening in the UK for the past 30 years with the IRA - which your government funds. Hush, and run along now sonny - adults talking

And Perplex (nomen seems to be omen, eh?) whoever said I was american? Because I don't have your fecked up attitude? Playing the cynic teenager? Bleh...

So.. it's been happening in the UK for the past 30 years (ah, check your history.. it's been going on for much longer..), which my government supposedly funds (again... me's no american... so you are drawing conclusions, smarty)... now come again... what was your point??

Ah... and why should America fund the IRA?
Hmm...ah! The IRISH JEWS, of course!! Red haired, hook nosed, little buggers who control the media and have ALLLL the money..
Ever been in Boston? Saint Patrick's-Jehova's day is a blast!
Celebrating upcoming world domination etc..

Now .. eagerly waiting for another pointless, stereotypical answer....

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Originally posted by Aird Fitzdeagle
God, how full of shit does one have to be to compare a number of victims with the other??
5000 die in Afghanistan... 3000 in NYC... Beg your pardon?
Does the average Joe Smokey have any say where the US Air Force blasts off?

Actually, the figures weern't being compared - The reactions to the deaths were. When do you ever hear about the deaths in Afghanistan? Never. Does the average Afghan have any say where Bin Laden sends his terrorists? No.

People like you and their little ideologies/stereotypes make me sick.
Yes, a lot of americans are very patriotic... and you want to deny them being proud of their country?
Well, so tell every patriot across the globe to stop loving his/her country... sheesh, what would that be... ah, FACISM... now there was the word again...

Actually, fascism is more synonymous with nationalism, than it is with an anti-patriotic view. Patriotism is similar to religion - It's a way for weak people to explain their existence.

 

[Perplex]

Now you're trolling son. And as a side note, please check my profile. I'm far from being a teenager. Are you the husband of the gushy little american lady that posted recently? She had some fair points, but she, as you, have totally missed the points made by myself and others.

Read what Doh_Boy said in his last point

 

[Embattle]

Originally posted by Aird Fitzdeagle
LOL... Embattle.. uhm.. do YOU have a clue what your are talking about? What did I talk about? Did you actually read it or did you just hit quote?




And Perplex (nomen seems to be omen, eh?) whoever said I was american? Because I don't have your fecked up attitude? Playing the cynic teenager? Bleh...

So.. it's been happening in the UK for the past 30 years (ah, check your history.. it's been going on for much longer..), which my government supposedly funds (again... me's no american... so you are drawing conclusions, smarty)... now come again... what was your point??

Ah... and why should America fund the IRA?
Hmm...ah! The IRISH JEWS, of course!! Red haired, hook nosed, little buggers who control the media and have ALLLL the money..
Ever been in Boston? Saint Patrick's-Jehova's day is a blast!
Celebrating upcoming world domination etc..

Now .. eagerly waiting for another pointless, stereotypical answer....

Any one got a 'I speak rubbish yet take forever to type it' translator on hand?

 

[Perplex]

Originally posted by Embattle


Any one got a 'I speak rubbish yet take forever to type it' translator on hand?

LOL, very well put

 

[old.Aird Fitzdeagle]

Well, Doh-boy, if somebody had started a thread saying:
"Finally them bloody Mullah's are getting what they deserve and it's totally ok that 5000 of them got the shaft etc."... I would have just disagreed the same way... I don't call it being a hypocrit.
I rather call that being opposed to a cynic, cold hearted, little fascist (or who started the whole zionistic world domination bull??)

Yeah, name calling.. cudos, I'll be on my knees and kiss Perplex' feet (not..) - and? Just because I don't pretend to be a pseudo intellectual bugger like Perplex I put myself into the "bad child" corner? LOL...

Nice- Arienh posts that people who are close to her lost friends at 9/11 is being called a stereotypical, melodramatic american...
and that is NOT an insult?? There we go, talking about who is being a hypocrit...

 

[Perplex]

Learn to type.
Learn to spell.
Learn to form simple sentances
Learn to debate
Learn

 

[doh_boy]

Originally posted by Aird Fitzdeagle
Well, Doh-boy, if somebody had started a thread saying:
"Finally them bloody Mullah's are getting what they deserve and it's totally ok that 5000 of them got the shaft etc."... I would have just disagreed the same way... I don't call it being a hypocrit.
I rather call that being opposed to a cynic, cold hearted, little fascist (or who started the whole zionistic world domination bull??)

But then, nobody did, so why the reaction?

Yeah, name calling.. cudos, I'll be on my knees and kiss Perplex' feet (not..) - and? Just because I don't pretend to be a pseudo intellectual bugger like Perplex I put myself into the "bad child" corner? LOL...

I said nothing about bad children but all you seem to be doing is (trying to) put people down and insult them for having a point of view. It's immaturity. BTW fascism is not allowing other people a voice/point of view. Which is just a quick walk away from where you are now.

Nice- Arienh posts that people who are close to her lost friends at 9/11 is being called a stereotypical, melodramatic american...
and that is NOT an insult?? There we go, talking about who is being a hypocrit...

she mis-read what he said and he was a bit harsh, the word overreaction springs to mind.

seriously though, if you have a view on this then I want to hear it. What I don't want to hear is "Aird: you're a c**t..blah blah"
ok.

 

[mr.Blacky]

I have read here that there were 3000 innocent civilians confirmed killed in Afghanistan by the US.
Confirmed by who? and who has said innocent?
I can believe 3000 but just cant believe then that they are all innocent.

As for 11th semptember.
ahem...cough
It was a sad day, nobody deserves to be killed especially that way. Religion is often misused to do evil actions like 11th september.
Considering the fact how terrorist are it should not have been a big surprise that the USA was attacked.
The US government is not a glorious/honourable one, but it has never said it was. Of course it is more interested in the needs and wants of its own people.

I would like to say the attack is imho a bit misused by the US government. Because most people see the government as being the same as the US people, they are saying look at the americans again.

Perplex from another thread I can understand why you feel and say the things you have said. But I dont agree at all. You are saying an eye for an eye. This is not the way forward nor will it ever bring peace and wealth to the Palestines. Also you and others that are saying this will allienate those that might help Palestine.
You are saying that Jews control the media, that is not true. You better ask yourself why it is possible that Isreal comes better out of the propaganda war. Part of the reason are statements like the ones you have made in this thread.


As for Iraq those sanctions are not bad. Yes Sadam is using it as a propaganda war. But what would you rather see: a strong Sadam or how it is now. As for the innocent people, they are accepting that Sadam is in fact starving them. Keep the sanction till he is dead.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Originally posted by Mr.Blackshirt
I have read here that there were 3000 innocent civilians confirmed killed in Afghanistan by the US.
Confirmed by who? and who has said innocent?
I can believe 3000 but just cant believe then that they are all innocent.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1740000/1740538.stm
That was in January, and 3700 civilian deaths were confirmed in Afghanistan.

 

[doh_boy]

IMHO the twin towers was the best thing that could have happened to bush, if it wasn't for that he would have been found out as the total gobshite he is, this way he is "the president who led the american people, nay the world, through the horrors of the twin towers."

 

[Embattle]

Killing/Murder happens all around the world every day yet it doesn't make the American news unless its Americans on the receiving end, which about covers how a large number of Americans portray the rest of the world.

New York has two names, Big Apple and New York. To that end most Americans seem to believe that while their homeland is called America it also goes by the names US, USA, Earth.

It's Americas own ignorance with regards to other countries that tends to annoy many people which is sad since I've been to America and its a nice country with nice people on the whole.

 

[xenon2000]

"Well, someone else tried to tell you before, little hypocrit, that it is the GOVERNMENT of a country, not the PEOPLE living there making decisions."

No shit, sherlock. You really thought Perplex was reffering to the individual civilians when he stated that America got a taste of their own medicine? Come off it.
3000 'innocent' people were killed along with two of America's national emblems (the towers) in a single attack. I doubt the terrorists had anything against these people nor the towers themselves; their clear intention was to make a statment of revenge to the government of the most powerful country in the world, and in a very harsh manor.
Yes, there were many lives lost and families ruined, but Bush just didn't see it that way - to him it was a major dent in America's ego. Why would he want to fight back and continue the killing otherwise?

I personally don't see how bombing a small country like Afghanistan justifies anything. If someone pulls off a feat as big as knocking down the WtC, you'd think they had some kind of message they wanted to get across... NOT wanting to provoke a retaliation. That's the US government's problem, it seems: ignorance.

(I know this post is probably ill-informed, but I'm merely speaking my mind. I apologise if any of the facts are far out, feel free to correct, minus abuse.)

On a side note, Aird: please refrain from using childish insults and flames in a discussion like this. The only people that the participants here are against are those of the US government, whom in my initial quote, you have put to blame anyway.

 

[xenon2000]

PS. Additional thanks to Perp, Damini, doh_boy et al for something interesting to read here for once

 

[Perplex]

Originally posted by xenon2000
PS. Additional thanks to Perp, Damini, doh_boy et al for something interesting to read here for once

I really thought the thread was going to be jumped on and locked by mods

 

[Cod]

Althought what happend to American was bad and everything, it was only a response to what American did previously.

 

[Wij]

Interesting read ppl. Can't agree with much of what you said tho Perp. I'm more with Cama on this one so I can't be arsed to argue it myself. My hangover is too bad for coherent thought anyway

 

[Stazbumpa]

I've skim read this only so forgive me if I'm repeating what someone else has said earlier:


9/11:
An attack on America yes, but global repercussions also. The single biggest British loss of life from a terrorist action happened on that day. So fuck Osama for that and all his mates also.

Jewish Control of the media/world finance/everything?:
Maybe, maybe not. Personally I dont care and the only people who do seem to be Muslims and Nazi's.

What Damini said several pages ago:
Lots of people seem to be up in arms about how the Afghan innocents have been slaughtered by the West in the "War on Terror" but, as she quite rightly says, those voices tend to stay quiet when Muslim regimes are seen to be some of the cruelest and most repressive in the modern world.

Israel:
Don't give a shit about the "who is right question". Israel is very much on the map, however, and I do believe they have a right to exist as much as anyone else. Besides, who the fuck is going to shift them? None of the Arab nations can. About time everyone in the Middle East put their guns down and had inter-religious group sex. Would solve most of the problems I can tell you.
The main reason for the mess over there is Yasser fucking Arafat anyway, but everyone conveniently forgets that part for some reason.

The bigger picture of who is right and wrong in the first place, or the Zionist plot to overthrow the world, or any other bollocks doesn't interest me. What interests me is terrorist groups, particularly backward Islamic ones, who want to see my way of life die. I say fuck them, and I hope that the "War on Terror" gets them before they get me.

Popular Islam doesn't like the West.
Fair enough. I don't like popular Islam.
Personally I would like to see any and all Western aid/monies sent to these regions stopped and then see how long they last.



And someone is bound to ask me what I mean by "popular Islam."

 

[Stazbumpa]

Originally posted by Cod
Althought what happend to American was bad and everything, it was only a response to what American did previously.

Dont recall Americans flying planes into buildings, declaring a Jihad on an entire way of life, bombing fellow religious brothers in the process, shooting women in the head for adultery or having shit human rights records.

Please correct me if I'm wrong of course.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Originally posted by stazbumpa
Lots of people seem to be up in arms about how the Afghan innocents have been slaughtered by the West in the "War on Terror" but, as she quite rightly says, those voices tend to stay quiet when Muslim regimes are seen to be some of the cruelest and most repressive in the modern world.

I'm no expert on the Islamic nations of the middle east, and i don't think you are, but i think you're wrong there. Firstly: Perhaps the most oppressive regime in the ME is Saudi Arabia. Does the US refer to the Saudis as evil? Does it impose sanctions on them? Or is Saudi Arabia the US' biggest ally in the region? I mention the US mass killings in Afghanistan, because the US claims to be in the right. Bush comes over to Europe claiming he's a fucking saint. He says "You're either with us, or without us". We're talking about the US, so i mention the casualities caused by the American bombing.

Originally posted by stazbumpa
Don't give a shit about the "who is right question". Israel is very much on the map, however, and I do believe they have a right to exist as much as anyone else.

Why do they have more right to exist than the Palestineans? Why? Isreal is the most untrustworthy nation on the Earth imo. I believe there's a list of ~300 UN resolutions, that have been passed, calling for Isreal to do/stop things, that have been ignored. The US comes into play here, as the UN descisions that can be enforced have to be passed by a smaller group of countrys. I believe there's been ~100 calls for action against Isreal(diplomatic/sanctions etc), which have been approved by every country on this panel, except the US. The US vetoes every plan that could take action against Isreal.

Isreal has broken far more international laws than Iraq. Out of all the countrys that spy on the US, Isreal spies on them the most. US Law forbids the weapons purchased by Isreal(from the US) to be used against civilians, but the US just ignores this fact; Most of Isreal's weapons have been bought from the US. Isreal itself was actually created after a successful terrorism campaign against the British presence there(the British ruled Palestine due to a UN mandate).

Isreal is breaking numerous international laws, and should have sanctions imposed on it.

 

[mr.Blacky]

Rofl because a nation has been started by violence doesn't mean that it doesn't have a right to exist. Perhaps it would have been better if Isreal never had exist in that area, but we will never know. But if I look at the countries in the ME I cant say that I am impressed.
The Saudie government is rather opressive but they dont send planes into buildings and dont harber willingly a wanted terrorist, a man even sentenced to death in his own country (yeah I know Saudia Arabia)
When has Bush said that he is a saint? Of course he is saying join me, why caus he knows he cant do it allone.

Staz agree with you but I want the nice looking woman.

 

[stu]

Originally posted by stazbumpa
Personally I would like to see any and all Western aid/monies sent to these regions stopped and then see how long they last.

You forget something VERY critical - the Middle East could bring the rest of the world to its knees in about 6 months, without firing a shot. One simple word - "oil". So before you start lauding it over these 'tin pot backward' countries, try remembering who holds the real economic power on this planet.

Dont recall Americans flying planes into buildings, declaring a Jihad on an entire way of life, bombing fellow religious brothers in the process, shooting women in the head for adultery or having shit human rights records.

Please correct me if I'm wrong of course.

The existence of the Taliban and Al Qaeda is a direct result of American funding of guerillas to shift the (entirely legitimate) former Soviet communist regime in Afghanistan. Without the intervention of the United States in a foreign matter that they had absolutely no interest in (other than to stem the 'evil red tide' across the globe - sounds worringly similar to all this religious and ethnic fanatacism, doesn't it), the Taliban and Al Qaeda would simply not exist. So actually, America is responsible for all of those things. Hence, you're wrong. And corrected.

 

[Sar]

Originally posted by stazbumpa


Dont recall Americans flying planes into buildings, declaring a Jihad on an entire way of life,

Oh they don't do that, they just use the media to completely demonise foreigners and whip up the americans into a frenzy of hatred so that their war mongering president can go to war and bomb the shit out of them feeling justified.

The Americans Forces are probably more evil than any other nation/regime on earth bar The Third Reich.

They just have better PR.