Israel/Palestine (Conflict to more Conflicts)

[Wij]

Already covered all of these points in this thread. Including the demographic question.

I said policed by outsiders until the religious bigotry dies out. Yep, at the point of our gun is the least we can do for creating this problem.

Post that? Well US is doing a good job of maintaining it's constitution so far. And I suspect by the time we could leave then things will have moved on in the other caliphates.

Suggest an alternative that doesn't end in either caliphate + genocide or concentration camps for an eternity and I'd be all ears.

As it stands - the west should not continue to be functional supporters of criminal regimes. There is no excuse for it. Israel is strengthening Iran's hand. Death to the west is becoming an easier chant whilst we blindly support Israel.

Our support, ethically, cannot continue to be blind.

Must not.

This plan worked out well in Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm sold.

 

[Scouse]

This plan worked out well in Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm sold.

We didn't actually do what was required though did we.

We utterly failed in our obligation to Afghanistan. We should still be there.

But that's not an argument against us actually doing the right thing, eyes open.


(And the less seid about how we acted in Iraq the better tbh.)

(And for Israel we don't have to go in militarily to start doing the right thing do we...)

 

[Wij]

Sure - states just give up their sovereignty voluntarily all the time.

 

[Wij]

And the main reason Afghanistan was never going to be free of the Taliban unless the west stayed there forever is that the Taliban is effectively an offshoot of Pakistan's ISI. If you don't tackle the problem of another state funding constant religious terrorist fuckery then you have no hope. But you think we could do it just using our pressure on Israelis and without Iran being made to stop its coups-in-all-but-name.

The British and US public would just love having boots on the ground fighting Islamists (and probably Jewish-extremists) in perpetuity. Let's ask a political party to put that in their manifesto. It's sure to be a vote-winner.

 

[Scouse]

Sure - states just give up their sovereignty voluntarily all the time.

It just has to give up being a racist piece of apartheid shit.

I mean, why feel bad about the holocaust when all we're going to do is sit by and repeatedly watch it happen?

If all we can achieve is acting in a more moral fashion than we are doing today then that's fine. But your "do nothing" excuse is thin.

 

[old.Osy]

Dark insensitive take:

Conflicts do not last for ever. Eventually, one side kills more enemies than it is possible to sustain the conflict, and it ends.

What's Gaza? 2 mil. West Bank? 3 mil. Eventually, with the negative growth rate, there won't be enough people to sustain the conflict.

Drop in the bucket for 8 billion. Funny how such a small conflict impacts world policy and reverberates throughout our society deeply, while other conflicts, with higher number of casualties or amount of populace negatively affected are largely invisible to the public eye therefor little impact to perception and all the other things I've mentioned.

 

[Raven]

Israel does not want peace either.

They can claim that they knew nothing of the attack, but that many moving parts would have been known about by Mossad.

Israel wants conflict so that they can use it as an excuse to kill Arabs and take their land.

 

[Raven]

Dark insensitive take:

Conflicts do not last for ever. Eventually, one side kills more enemies than it is possible to sustain the conflict, and it ends.

What's Gaza? 2 mil. West Bank? 3 mil. Eventually, with the negative growth rate, there won't be enough people to sustain the conflict.

Drop in the bucket for 8 billion. Funny how such a small conflict impacts world policy and reverberates throughout our society deeply, while other conflicts, with higher number of casualties or amount of populace negatively affected are largely invisible to the public eye therefor little impact to perception and all the other things I've mentioned.

A huge part of the problem is our governments blind support for atrocities.

 

[Scouse]

A huge part of the problem is our governments blind support for atrocities.

This.

It's like supporting the holocaust. We've put sanctions up against Russia, and quite rightly so, for invading Ukraine. We're not only not doing the same against a country with a long history of war crimes - we're actively enabling and supporting it.

And at home we're enacting laws that make it illegal for councils to become involved with the BDS movement - so if any British want to exercise their principles they'll be prevented.

Prediction: At some point in Starmer's reign he'll officially adopt EHRC for all of Britain, so it'll become a hate crime to point out the fact that Israel is an inherently racist endeavour.

 

[Wij]

FTFY (and he said he "didn't know")

And yet another pointless sideshow where we talk about celebrity opinion rather than ongoing war-crime.

Oh, and we can talk about more than one thing in this thread. It was an interesting aside and hilariously predictable.

Hamas: We did it. We are proud to have done it. We’ll do it again. Here’s how we did it. There’s film and everything. We say all this using our official spokesman on live TV.

Waters: It could be the Jews. Sorry, Israel.

 

[Wij]

This.

It's like supporting the holocaust. We've put sanctions up against Russia, and quite rightly so, for invading Ukraine. We're not only not doing the same against a country with a long history of war crimes - we're actively enabling and supporting it.

And at home we're enacting laws that make it illegal for councils to become involved with the BDS movement - so if any British want to exercise their principles they'll be prevented.

Prediction: At some point in Starmer's reign he'll officially adopt EHRC for all of Britain, so it'll become a hate crime to point out the fact that Israel is an inherently racist endeavour.

It would be better if our government condemned atrocities on both sides yes, instead of just the one.

 

[Scouse]

It would be better if our government condemned atrocities on both sides yes, instead of just the one.

It would be better if our government acted ethically and in proportion to harm tbh.

 

[Scouse]

It was an interesting aside and hilariously predictable.

You're right Wij. I take it all back.

What a hilarious thundercunt:


View: https://twitter.com/rogerwaters/status/1712978707864797522?lang=en-GB

 

[Wij]

You're right Wij. I take it all back.

What a hilarious thundercunt:


View: https://twitter.com/rogerwaters/status/1712978707864797522?lang=en-GB

It's telling for what he doesn't say more than the obvious "Here's a solution that will definitely work" stuff that we could debate all day.

He doesn't address his ludicrous "Could have been a false flag". Decries Israeli crimes without much weight for constant terrorist attacks against Israelis.

And then mentions Syria. Where he has a terrible record of being absolutely, wilfully blind to war crimes.

Even pro-Palestinians call him out for being a cunt on this:

Roger Waters: Another star falls from grace due to Syrian civil war

Western countries are hypocritical on the concepts they claim to believe in such as democracy and human rights when it comes to non-Western people and...

www.dailysabah.com

Has he ever advocated for a single, democratic, secular state in Syria to replace the murdering dictatorship where no one has any representation at all? Of course not. It's anti-Israeli. That's all that matters.

And, given that he's spoken on behalf of Russia at the UN, which basically owns Syria, he can hardly claim that it's not his business as he only has leverage in western matters.

He's a cunt and calling for a ceasefire in this conflict, on terms that neither side is going to accept, isn't making him less of one.

 

[Scouse]

Decries Israeli crimes without much weight for constant terrorist attacks against Israelis.

You mean where the state of Israel continues to allow settlers, the police and the IDF to rape, pillage and murder Arab Israelis during "peacetime" - behaviour that they're just supposed to suck up?

Has he ever advocated for a single, democratic, secular state in Syria to replace the murdering dictatorship where no one has any representation at all? Of course not. It's anti-Israeli. That's all that matters.

Frankly, if he's a single-issue campaigner, and that single issue is correct, then that criticism is still correct.

This is just more whataboutism frankly. Lack of criticism elsewhere does not invalidate criticism of Israel, not one jot.

It's absolutely fine to be simply anti-Israel if Israel is a mahoosive cunt. Which it is. Expecting perfection out of people before you listen to valid criticism is just yet another avoidant tactic. Like insisting someone has to be a full-on tree-hugger before you listen to someone on global warming, or you condemn them as a hypocrite. But guess what - if they're tree huggers, you fucking ignore them anyway because they're weirdos.

"Johnny punched Bob"
"Johnny punched Billy too, I don't hear you moaning about that, and until you do, I don't care if Johnny punched Bob"
"But Johnny punched Bob, right?"
"Nope. Doesn't matter. Until you complain about both sets of bad, then Bob's shit out of luck".

 

[Wij]

You mean where the state of Israel continues to allow settlers, the police and the IDF to rape, pillage and murder Arab Israelis during "peacetime" - behaviour that they're just supposed to suck up?


Frankly, if he's a single-issue campaigner, and that single issue is correct, then that criticism is still correct.

This is just more whataboutism frankly. Lack of criticism elsewhere does not invalidate criticism of Israel, not one jot.

It's absolutely fine to be simply anti-Israel if Israel is a mahoosive cunt. Which it is. Expecting perfection out of people before you listen to valid criticism is just yet another avoidant tactic. Like insisting someone has to be a full-on tree-hugger before you listen to someone on global warming, or you condemn them as a hypocrite. But guess what - if they're tree huggers, you fucking ignore them anyway because they're weirdos.

"Johnny punched Bob"
"Johnny punched Billy too, I don't hear you moaning about that, and until you do, I don't care if Johnny punched Bob"
"But Johnny punched Bob, right?"
"Nope. Doesn't matter. Until you complain about both sets of bad, then Bob's shit out of luck".

Bollocks. He's a full-on war crimes denier for other regimes. That's as relevant as fuck.

 

[Scouse]

Bollocks. He's a full-on war crimes denier for other regimes. That's as relevant as fuck.

Does it make Israel's war-crimes less war-crimey?

Better tell those 50,000 pregnant women to stop worrying then.

 

[Scouse]

I'll just say that again:

Fifty. Thousand. Pregnant. Women.

 

[Wij]

I'll just say that again:

Fifty. Thousand. Pregnant. Women.

You say that like I'm condoning it.

It doesn't make Waters not a cunt. He's a cunt. He couldn't give a fuck about women and children killed elsewhere. He fucking denies it or blames them. Are you saying that doesn't make him a cunt?

 

[Embattle]

Using Roger Waters any time with regards to Jews is a failure, something you well know Scouse from previous discussions.

 

[Scouse]

You say that like I'm condoning it.

You don't have to condone. But you're plainly an apologist for Israel. You're engaged in massive apologetics. Pointing elsewhere, at fripperies, denying expert opinion on the realities of the situation (even Israeli opinion), whataboutism. There's not a single thing suggested - like withdrawal of financial or military support - that you support to curb the ongoing war crimes. Not a single thing. You've advocated for Israel continuing.


So, I'll ask again: Does Rogers being a cunt make Israels war-crimes less war-crimey?

I don't know where the cunt pays tax - but my tax dollar is subsidising Israeli industry and the weapons they produce, that we buy, which are sold as "battle tested". Yes - on Arab Israelis in Israeli concentration camps.

None of my money goes to subsidise, Russia, Syria or Iran. But we give political, military and financial backing to a regime that is killing their own innocent civilians by the thousands, It's absolutely indefensible - yet your arguments defend it.

 

[Scouse]

Using Roger Waters any time with regards to Jews is a failure, something you well know Scouse from previous discussions.

Anti-Israel. Nobody has ever seen him say anything antisemitic. Not that matters in this day and age, does it. That's even been through the German courts this year and if they can't find him antisemitic, then nobody can.

Anyway - I didn't bring Waters up. Wij did, as part of his campaign to talk about celebrity opinion, or Syria, or Russia, or anything really, rather than the 130 children being killed every day in Gaza. And it's a bit rich to hate Waters for not giving a fuck about Syria, when you plainly can't bring yourself to give a fuck about the same shit when Israel does it.

 

[Wij]

Anti-Israel. Nobody has ever seen him say anything antisemitic. Not that matters in this day and age, does it. That's even been through the German courts this year and if they can't find him antisemitic, then nobody can.

Anyway - I didn't bring Waters up. Wij did, as part of his campaign to talk about celebrity opinion, or Syria, or Russia, or anything really, rather than the 130 children being killed every day in Gaza.

Because it was funny. Him wondering whether Hamas did it and thinking it might be Israel is so on-point for Waters.

You were the one who then tried to portray him as a saint which I had to object to just on plain facts.

 

[Scouse]

You were the one who then tried to portray him as a saint

Nope. I absolutely accept everything you've said on him about Syria, Russia etc. But he's just an artist and a flawed human like the rest of us. You seem to demand perfection. I posted that video as counterpoint - because I personally think his heart is in the right place, even if he makes mistakes. But he's no saint. Nobody is.

 

[Embattle]

Anti-Israel. Nobody has ever seen him say anything antisemitic. Not that matters in this day and age, does it. That's even been through the German courts this year and if they can't find him antisemitic, then nobody can.

Anyway - I didn't bring Waters up. Wij did, as part of his campaign to talk about celebrity opinion, or Syria, or Russia, or anything really, rather than the 130 children being killed every day in Gaza. And it's a bit rich to hate Waters for not giving a fuck about Syria, when you plainly can't bring yourself to give a fuck about the same shit when Israel does it.

Something else you've claimed in previous discussions over that silly old cunt.

 

[Scouse]

Something else you've claimed in previous discussions over that silly old cunt.

What is?

 

[Embattle]

What is?

He isn't antisemitic etc etc.

Much the same way you've never seemingly had a problem with JC standing on a stage with Hamas in the past either.

Good stuff:

Organiser of Armistice Day Cenotaph event backs pro-Palestine march

Western Front Association, which holds the annual commemoration, believes in freedom of speech, says trustee

www.theguardian.com

 

[Scouse]

He isn't antisemitic etc etc.

Oh. You've got something that shows he is? Because if I had that, I'd be denouncing him myself.

Much the same way you've never seemingly had a problem with JC standing on a stage with Hamas in the past either.

I don't recall commenting on JC and Hamas tbh. But I have as much problem with JC doing that as I do with Sunak visiting Netenyahu. And Bibi the baby-killer has killed way more children than Hamas ever did.

But this:

Good stuff:

Organiser of Armistice Day Cenotaph event backs pro-Palestine march

Western Front Association, which holds the annual commemoration, believes in freedom of speech, says trustee

www.theguardian.com

We agree on.

I never understood why an anti-war demonstration shouldn't be able to be held on armistice day. You'd have thought it was more appropriate, not less.

 

[Embattle]

She really is quite the right wing courting scumbag:

London Gaza rally: Braverman accuses Met of bias over Gaza marches

The home secretary comes under fire after saying the force often "plays favourites" when policing protests.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Scouse]

Interesting fact: She was named after Sue-Ellen from 80's TV series Dallas - and that's her real name.