Israel/Palestine (Conflict to more Conflicts)

[Scouse]

Couple of things whilst FH was down that I had links to (but CBA finding now). Prime was Israel seemed to be manufacturing evidence.

E.G. Photos of bags with AKs in them 'found' by the IDF, being updated / amended and having more AKs added to them.

Too much is riding on Israel 'finding' conclusive proof that Al-Shifa was a 'major' command and control centre. But given Israel is clearly collectively punishing 2.3 million really all their massive press-operation needs to do is give their supporters enough information to enable to be able to delude themselves that Israel's not just criminal. In this context their refusal to grant access to independent assessors to verify claims looks to be the time they need to manufacture the outcome they need.

Where's the sanctions? Russia's not gone anywhere near this hard into Ukraine, but they're sanctioned up the kazoo.

Meanwhile, we're closing in on 6,000 dead children now.

How many kids does Israel have to kill to meet their quota? Israel usually aims for between ten or twenty to one. That's normally the objective of their reprisals. But considering not many kids were killed in the Hamas raid (originally 14 was reported, although the (jewish owned/established) fact-check.org says 29, quoting UN figures, which is a-OK with me) - we're now at 206 - 1.

What needs to happen for the west to call for a ceasefire so we help 2.3 million innocent people go back to rebuilding their shattered lives?

 

[Wij]

Where's the sanctions? Russia's not gone anywhere near this hard into Ukraine, but they're sanctioned up the kazoo.

Attacking medical facilities?

That’s just not true. 144 totally destroyed. Many time that number attacked:

Russian Airstrikes In Ukraine: The ‘Largest Attack’ On Health Care In Europe Since World War II, Says WHO - Health Policy Watch

As the first snows fall across Ukraine, World Health Organization officials in Kyiv warn the coming winter will be “life-threatening for millions” of Ukrainians.

healthpolicy-watch.news

 

[Scouse]

On that point I stand corrected @Wij. < please note that.

However, to augment what you've posted there - from the WHO.

WHO records more than 1000 attacks on health care in Ukraine over the past 15 months of full-scale war

Kyiv, 30 May 2023WHO has verified more than 1000 attacks on health care in Ukraine since the invasion by the Russian Federation in February last year – the highest number WHO has ever recorded in any humanitarian emergency. This grim milestone yet again highlights the difficult and dangerous...

www.who.int

WHO defines an attack on health care as “any act of verbal or physical violence, obstruction or threat of violence that interferes with the availability, access and delivery of curative and/or preventive health services during emergencies”. This can range from violence with heavy weapons to psychosocial threats and intimidation that affect access to health care for those in need.

Whilst still absolutely digusting - and quite rightly we've sanctioned Russia - where's similar for Israel?

Israel isn't bothering with verbal, obstruction, threats or intimidation. And the attacks on healthcare professionals, ambulances, supply lines, intimidation aren't being counted towards the stats here @Wij. Israel has bombed the shit out the hospitals. Only 10 out of the 35 hospitals in Gaza are still "functional" on some level - with a total of 1400 beds for 2.3 million people.

The effect of the Israeli war crimes on Gaza are an order of magnitude more impacting. We're not counting clinics etc.
From the director general of the WHO:

...More than 2000 patients with cancer, 1000 with kidney disease, 50,000 with cardiovascular disease and 60,000 with diabetes, all at risk as their treatment is interrupted...
...Up to 200 women giving birth every day in the worst imaginable conditions...
...Premature babies dying as life-support systems shut down...

[and on and on]

Israeli agression isn't limited to 'just' Gaza. There've been 170 attacks on healthcare in the West Bank too.

Different order of magnitude @Wij. Sorry. Israel needs to be stopped.

 

[Wij]

Come on, Russia isn’t making any verbal threats to Ukrainian hospitals. These are missiles, bombs and cluster munitions. Israel is not doing worse than Russia has done in Ukraine and Syria.

 

[Scouse]

There are about 3300 medical institutions in Ukraine.

Gaza has 35 hospitals. 28% of which have any sort of function. Most are out of fuel. Food. Water. Medicine.

Gaza is 635sqkm. Ukraine is 603,628.

The situation in Gaza is incomparably more urgent.

 

[Scouse]

Less civilians killed in 15 months of war in Ukraine than in 7 weeks in Gaza.

More children killed every two and a half days in Gaza than in Ukraine since the start of the war.

 

[Wij]

Again, not quite the point. By saying that 'Russia isn't going anyway near as hard in Ukraine' you are implying that Russia is taking more care not to hit medical facilities. That's how I took what you meant and that's what I'm pushing back on.

Russia sends missiles and drones against Ukrainian hospitals constantly. And it doesn't give warning. And it doesn't claim there are any enemy combatants or military value. It just wants to destroy them.

The disparity in statistics just reflects that the two wars are very different. Ukraine has air defences. Anti-missile defences. Better intelligence and yes, it's more thinly spread. It's harder to hit. Gaza is small, tightly-packed, disorganised, ill-prepared for a war and poor. The supposed superiority of the Russian military over the Ukrainian one was just a figment of the imaginations of those who didn't want to give bad news to Putin.

The intent by Russia is just as bad (if not worse but we can leave that for now). If Russia had a way of destroying every hospital and power station in Ukraine (save for nuclear weapons) then it would have done so without a doubt. It tries every day to blow up civilian infrastructure. The intent to commit war crimes is absolute and it is committing massive amounts of munitions to it.

Much like when you suggested that Hamas exercised restraint because of the comparative deaths, you mistake capability with intent. The intent was there for Hamas but the capability was not on the same scale. The intent is there for Russia, but not the capability compared to what Israel can do in Gaza. The intent appears to be there for Israel too and it has the capability. We'll see what's left when they decide they've had their pound of flesh.

A word of caution though on the comparison of figures. You are comparing verified civilian deaths with unverified ones by an authority that seems to claim everyone is a civilian as far as I can see.

 

[Scouse]

Religious denialism tbh

 

[Scouse]

Head of the UN, talking shit again.

We are witnessing a killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any conflict since I have been secretary general

...

 

[Deebs]

Don't shout at me blame Osy instead




Gonna buy that for @Scouse

 

[Scouse]

Netenyahu talking shit again.

‘We are overwhelmed’: southern Gaza’s exhausted doctors forced to leave children to die

A surgeon at one of the territory’s last functioning hospitals tells of desperate conditions amid an acute lack of medicine

www.theguardian.com

Even if his interpretation of international law and his actions are correct (they're not, he's talking shit) the shutoff of water and denisl of humanitarian aid - inc. medical supplies - is designed to cause suffering to all.

 

[Marc]

Thought to myself "not been on FH for a while, must have a look". Decided on this thread to start. What a ride! Think I need another 6 month break again!

 

[Wij]

Thought to myself "not been on FH for a while, must have a look". Decided on this thread to start. What a ride! Think I need another 6 month break again!

 

[Delboy]

This is a useful talk on the Palestine Israel conflict arguing that the original issue (before 1948) is that one side wants a state(Israel) and the other side doesn’t want Israel (A Jewish state) to exist


back then the UK Gov view was that the situation was irreconcilable.


17:30mins starts the speaker that is most relevant here

50 mins starts the Q&A




View: https://youtu.be/At72-a-EDhY?si=jMrEybR_PlmaklD0


Below is what I reckon is the crux of the message.

The speaker believes there are very few Palestines that would publicly (on camera) recognise that a Jewish state should exist on the land that is widely regarded as Israel and that a separate Palestine state should exist alongside that state in peace.

Instead the speaker reckons that almost all Palestines believe that a Palestine state should exist where Israel currently is instead, with no Jewish state or peoples existing there at all.
This has been the case long before 1948. Palestines want nothing else, no extra land, no extra money, no economy building. Just want the Jews gone from the land and that's it, it's one of their most coveted beliefs and not just an extremist viewpoint.

 

[Scouse]

Don't disagree at all @Delboy - but the same applies to both sides.

 

[Wij]

This is a useful talk on the Palestine Israel conflict arguing that the original issue (before 1948) is that one side wants a state(Israel) and the other side doesn’t want Israel (A Jewish state) to exist


back then the UK Gov view was that the situation was irreconcilable.


17:30mins starts the speaker that is most relevant here

50 mins starts the Q&A




View: https://youtu.be/At72-a-EDhY?si=jMrEybR_PlmaklD0


Below is what I reckon is the crux of the message.

The speaker believes there are very few Palestines that would publicly (on camera) recognise that a Jewish state should exist on the land that is widely regarded as Israel and that a separate Palestine state should exist alongside that state in peace.

Instead the speaker reckons that almost all Palestines believe that a Palestine state should exist where Israel currently is instead, with no Jewish state or peoples existing there at all.
This has been the case long before 1948. Palestines want nothing else, no extra land, no extra money, no economy building. Just want the Jews gone from the land and that's it, it's one of their most coveted beliefs and not just an extremist viewpoint.

It's the majority opinion across most of the Arab world, not just Palestinians. No Jews among us.

History of the Jews in Syria - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The last Jew in Yemen is being tortured in prison:

MSN

 

[Scouse]

The last Jew in Yemen is being tortured in prison:

MSN

Yep. No doubt. And it's disgusting to read.

However, there's 2.3 million arabs being collectively tortured in their own country by the state of Israel right now. So I think our focus should remain there.

Whataboutery is the death of justice.

 

[Wij]

Yep. No doubt. And it's disgusting to read.

However, there's 2.3 million arabs being collectively tortured in their own country by the state of Israel right now. So I think our focus should remain there.

Whataboutery is the death of justice.

It's not whataboutery. It's making a legitimate point about how the majority of Arabs feel about Jews which is relevant to the thread. Just because it's not talking about what you want to discuss does not make it whataboutery at all.

 

[Scouse]

It's not whataboutery. It's making a legitimate point about how the majority of Arabs feel about Jews which is relevant to the thread. Just because it's not talking about what you want to discuss does not make it whataboutery at all.

You'd support action to stop these horrid little caliphates treating jews like they do. And christians, to a lesser extent (although Christians now live in secular countries - rather than in a jesus-based caliphate of their own which only serves to provoke the rest of the world into hating them). I know you would because you, like me, have plainly stated it.

And rightly so. We should be doubling down on islam and islamic states. It should be a matter of policy. Islam is a disgusting creed, a rip-off of christianity written by a semi-literate businessman which states that non-muslims are fit for slaves or death (just like all the judaeo-christian based religions). And, like christianity, puts women firmly at the bottom of the pile.

So I agree - we should be looking to achieve public policy goals to further human rights in those countries. We should be taking action to weaken them (in the correct manner).

Israel, however, is a special case. We prop the fucker up. The nature of our relationship means it is correct that we have more of a moral obligation towards Israel and it's actions than we do towards the others.

Going "oh, poor jew, look at the muslims that hate them" is a distraction. Especially whilst 2.3 million people are being deprived basic needs right now. And the state of Israel is the problem. The fact that it's a state for the jews doesn't mean that it contains only jews.

If Israel is going to be able to take any moral high ground here then it needs to treat the arabs and other non-jews in it's own country equally. Otherwise all these horrible little Islamic caliphates can look at Israel and go "well look how they treat muslims".

And they'd be right. Because they are.


And, of course, that's whataboutism from them too. Just like your "poor jew" analogies absolutely are whataboutism. Exactly the sort of whataboutism that protects Israel, and ourselves, from the actions we should be taking.

 

[Embattle]

🍿

 

[Scouse]

🍿

Glad you find it entertaining.

We're at 5,300 children now, according to the director of Unicef.

 

[Wij]

🍿

Nah, not rising to it. There was no disagreement with the point actually made that what most Arabs want is a Jew-free Middle East.

 

[Scouse]

The point was about whataboutism being the death of justice - and the thrust of your posts being precicely that. We've been agreeing on the rest of the point for years, never mind just in this thread.

It's not a source of surprise though. If nearly every western government is turning a blind eye to the 'war-time' suffering of 2.3 million people being inflicted by an ally on it's own population, (alongside 'peace time' apartheid, rape and murder) then I guess it's easy for people to feel the same.

 

[Scouse]

Blasé reporting about settler violence in the not-at-war West Bank:

West Bank: Eight Palestinians killed during Israeli raid

The Israeli army says it was mounting a raid in the city of Jenin to capture a Palestinian suspect.

www.bbc.co.uk

The UN says 200 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli troops or settlers in a new escalation of the conflict. Four Israelis have been killed by Palestinians

Four Israelis have been killed though. So that makes state-sanctioned murder by settlers OK.

 

[Aoami]

Glad you find it entertaining.

We're at 5,300 children now, according to the director of Unicef.

because posting a popcorn emoji is so much worse than sitting on a forum all day and fucking whining lol

 

[Scouse]

fucking whining

Trying to discuss war crimes that we're partly culpable for is whining now? K.

Valuable contribution as usual @Aoami.

 

[Aoami]

Trying to discuss war crimes that we're partly culpable for is whining now? K.

Valuable contribution as usual @Aoami.

Just like your contribution to society. The annals of history will be written by wankers wasting their lives on forums, i'm sure.

 

[Scouse]

My contribution to society eh?

You're contributing nowt but bile to a forum you apparently consider a 'waste of life'. Maybe a little self-reflection is needed on that post.

 

[Scouse]

Meanwhile, in "food for thought":

Antisemites supporting Israel is weird. Jewish support of them is even weirder | Sam Wolfson

Jewish organizations are embracing public figures who have circulated hateful tropes – because they support Israel

www.theguardian.com

 

[Scouse]

Activists calling for Gaza ceasefire begin hunger strike outside White House

Activists including Cynthia Nixon say they are launching five-day fast ‘to showcase the actions of President Biden’

www.theguardian.com

speaking as “the mother of Jewish children whose grandparents are holocaust survivors” ... “In seven weeks, Israel has killed more civilians on a tiny strip of land than was killed in 20 years of war in the entire country of Afghanistan

If the bombardment of the past seven weeks continued ... no Palestinian homes would be left standing by Christmas Eve