Ids

[xane]

Originally posted by throdgrain
Err I was tory supporter when I left school in 1980. Even when the dole queues went out the door of the dole office and down the road, i was a Tory.
By 1983-84 it became a few things became apparent.
The Tories ONLY help themselves and people like them.
...

Blimey, you went through the same kind of Damascian conversion as I did, in my case a heavy influence from my mother, who still carries a picture of Thatcher in her purse, I saw the post-Callaghan Labour party as washed up and run by idiots, the only party who could do anything was the Conservatives.

I went through the great Thatcher/Major years, at first it was fantastic seeing my wages go up 15-20% per year, but a bit shitty watching house prices go up 25-30% per year, when I did get round to buying a house it lost £15,000 value shortly afterwards and Mr Negative Equity came a-knocking, all down to the wonderful monetarist policies.

Blair is going through the "term and a half" syndrome. The Americans, bless them, recognised it over 200 years ago, that people need someone different at the top every 6 years so they cut their constitution to suit, poor old Maggie never realised that after all those years in power there was no-one left who didn't hate her guts, apart from the toadies she surrounded herself with.

IDS knows all about Tony's "unpopularity", unfortunately he's a bit of thickie to see that the party he heads and the shadowy ex-Thatcherites lurking in his shadow will never become any more popular, if he could only banish the lot of them to back-bench hell then he'd be okay, and why not, it worked for Tony B !

 

[xane]

Originally posted by FatBusinessman
And the Lib Dems have such a small share of the vote that they don't stand a chance of gaining power, and probably wouldn't know what to do with it if they did.

They'd legalise pot ! Mind you, they'd probably legalise child prostitution if it could get them some more votes.

 

[kameleon]

What Throd said. There is no way im going through the shit the conservative party put us through in the 80's/early 90's




The only good tory is a lavatory

 

[Tom]

Well, at the end of the day it is important to have a strong party in opposition. It isn't a foregone conclusion that Labour will win the next General Election, their are many things that could turn sour between now and then:

Trains
Hutton enquiry
Tax
'The Sun' turning on Labour

I'm not a supporter of any party in particular - I prefer to cast my vote on the candidate I feel best able to represent my interests. Its just a shame that there isn't a better medium for them to communicate their ideas than the press. It would be a nice idea for the government to set up an independant 'election info' website, listing the aims and policies of every political candidate in each election.

 

[Sir Frizz]

Originally posted by xane
They'd legalise pot !

What's wrong with that?

 

[cHodAX]

Originally posted by old.ignus
I'm not saying they can I just theink they're the lesser of erm....several evils.

You must not remember the 80's, they were a disaster for Britian. Our manufacturing output shrunk by 90% under those self serving twats.

 

[throdgrain]

You cant tell people that just will not listen
Perhaps they have to find out themselves ? Well I just hope they dont lose me my job in and income whilst thier doing it.

 

[SoWat]

Back to the original question....

I have no idea what IDS is up to. His 'quiet man' routine doesn't wash at all. I honestly think he's just not up to the job.

I loved reading about his speech calling for party unity. Wonderful stuff from one of the most disloyal party members ever!

New labour are not delivering... that's for sure, but even then I would vote for them over the Torys anyday.

Having said that, both of the main parties reward their donors when they get in power, not the people who actually voted for them. Now we are copying, politically, everything the yanks are doing, we're going to go down the same road of milking the working/middle class to reward those who donated dosh to the party in power.

On a slightly different note, what is it about the 'Special Relationship' we have with the US? I really think the yanks have the dirt on the UK for something, and inform every British Prime Minister to toe the line or else.

Oh yeah almost forgot, Thatcher's plan to break the Miner's Union is one of the most shameful episodes in this country's history. Whole communities laid waste, while jeering policemen (aka Government protection force) earned enough to pay off their mortgages.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Tom
Tax
'The Sun' turning on Labour

Strangely these two issue are related.

One of Labours original election pledges (the first one) was to close all the tax loopholes, thus avoid middle england paying for everything again, like the Conservatives did.

However, one of the major tax avoiders is News International, whe are foreign owned as well, publishers of toiletpaper-cum-tabloids like The Sun and The Times, in fact most of the "British" media are in this position.

If Brown ever gets to power in place of Tony, he'll know what to do, and start insisting that these rich companies start paying up at least double-figure tax rates, that'll put most of the media against him for a start.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by SoWat
Thatcher's plan to break the Miner's Union is one of the most shameful episodes in this country's history. Whole communities laid waste, while jeering policemen (aka Government protection force) earned enough to pay off their mortgages.

As much as I hate to stand up for old Maggie, I am afraid I was around in the 70's too, and can remember having dinner by candlelight because the bastards decided to go on strike at the drop of a hat.

I don't suppose those miners ever thought about paying off their mortgages, after all, they were not exactly poorly paid at the time.

 

[SoWat]

Of the 3 post-war miner's strikes, the 1974 one was perhaps the least justified. It did have the effect of toppling Heath though (who went to the country thinking they would back him!) so it wasn't all bad.

The 1984 strike was in response to Thatcher's assault on the mining industry. Unfortunately Scargill et al were too busy feathering their own nests to realise what was going on before it was too late. Calling a strike when Britain had the biggest stockpiles of coal ever was madness. They should have called it 18 months earlier. Thatcher's Government would have , hopefully, fallen then.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Originally posted by Summo
Yeah, Carlyle took Germany by storm! Working-class Scot makes good.

I also saw Kenneth Branagh finally solve that pesky Jewish Question once and for all.

Ahhh... one of these (once) again.

 

[Tom]

The very notion of large unions using blackmail to change government policy goes against everything civilised society stands for.

Unfortunately, its sometimes necessary to have civil unrest. I was born in 1972, but I do remember the power cuts, having to walk around the house with tea-candles. Say what you like, Thatcher's government brought this country out of the dark ages into the modern world. Think of all the large manufacturers that have fallen by the wayside - most noteably British Leyland.

I think its unlikely that IDS will become prime minister, merely because he is bald.

 

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I dont like the Tories, but i can stand Labours economic liberalism. Tax is going up and up, but nothings improving. Whats the point in plowing milions more into the NHS. It seems like its all going on the salaries of completely pointless new positions like smoking cessation adviser, rather than doctors/nurses.

Labours systematic destruction of the education system doesnt indear me to them either.

I think i would be happy to pay if it was going somewhere useful. What do you guys think, is the extra tax worth it?

As for who wins the next election, Im sure it'll be Labour. Goverment wont be voted out just because they've screwed up, but because there is a viable alternative... and there isnt one.

 

[Embattle]

Originally posted by Tom

Trains
Hutton enquiry
Tax
'The Sun' turning on Labour

Not really:

Trains - Will be Late and continue to be so....nothing new there.
Hutton Enquiry - Not actually sure how many people care but its unlikely to do great harm.
Tax - Will continue to increase as per normal.
'The Sun' - Pg3 then sports and then binned.

Its not that the current Lab government is great in any way but then people look at the Cons and look through hollow promises of tax cuts and realise they would most probably, at there very best, be no better.

 

[Mr.Monkey]

I'd love to see the UK now if the unions hadn't been so utterly crushed by Maggie.


France anyone? General strike once every month or so? Truck drivers blockading ports for fun?
The power of replacable individuals over the population as a whole? No thanks.

 

[(Shovel)]

For me, I cannot sympathise with the Tories at all. I disagree with them on most levels, but their current (and long running policy) of "not having any policies" is a big turn off for me.

By that, I refer to their constant marketing tactic of slagging off the oppoanant, rather than promoting their own agenda. It just says "We haven't got anything good to say" - and I dislike that.

I'm increasingly in the "Give the Lib Dems a chance" demographic. Their openness appeals to me, though I do have doubts about them. It's very easy to be open and cuddly when you at no risk of having to make good on what you say. I don' t think that outways what they do say though.

Personally, I'd like to see a shift away from the "Presidential PM" style, see party consensus running the country, giving more people a clear say, and maybe accomodate the input of constituents more in the process.

But then, that probably makes me some kind of utopian.

 

[Farsight]

As for who wins the next election, Im sure it'll be Labour. Goverment wont be voted out just because they've screwed up, but because there is a viable alternative... and there isnt one.

In fact, the whole party political system is outdated, corrupt, irrelevant and generally a load of bollocks.

The country needs to be led by people who are putting their energy into that rather than scoring points off the other team.


Natural Law Party anyone? Bouncing sounds nice

 

[SoWat]

The power of replacable individuals over the population as a whole? No thanks

Well there's no saying how it would have turned out, but at least power would be in the hands of the people that actually pay for the running of the country, and not big corporations who regard the general public as just a cash crop.

 

[(Shovel)]

Originally posted by SoWat
Well there's no saying how it would have turned out, but at least power would be in the hands of the people that actually pay for the running of the country, and not big corporations who regard the general public as just a cash crop.

Union power isn't any better than Corp power. If you are going to have one, representing the interests of one party, you have to have the other. The problem in all parts of the world is that the representation of the people, the unions and business (of all sizes) is disfigured and "the people" (who when it comes to the crunch have interests in both points of view) are usually at the bottom of the pile.

 

[Mr.Monkey]

Originally posted by SoWat
Well there's no saying how it would have turned out, but at least power would be in the hands of the people that actually pay for the running of the country, and not big corporations who regard the general public as just a cash crop.

In all the situations where the unions have got power, they have become much worse than any corrupt politician. The 70's are the living example in the UK. France still has the legacy of union power. Read a newspaper that covers foriegn affairs.

The common working man is no less corruptable than any "politician". Look at two jags.

I liked it when politicians were independantly wealthy, and would resign at the drop of a hat (even in protest). Nowadays they are carear politicians like mandy and mercer. They may quit/get sacked, but you know they will be back, and just the same.

But then I've never been hte biggest fan of democracy. Just because someone wants something, doesn't make it a good thing for them.

 

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Originally posted by Farsight
In fact, the whole party political system is outdated, corrupt, irrelevant and generally a load of bollocks.

The country needs to be led by people who are putting their energy into that rather than scoring points off the other team.

Agreed, but again its the whole problem of having to chose the lesser of the evils. Democracy is pretty crap when you think about it... if the goverment isnt bowing to pressure from the fickle, and sometimes stupid public, its lying to make us think they are. It just happens that thats better than all the alternatives (say, an indervidual answerable to noone).

The fact is, anyone who wants power really shouldnt be given it, and anyone who is will ultimately be corrupted by it anyway.

 

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Originally posted by Mr.Monkey
But then I've never been hte biggest fan of democracy. Just because someone wants something, doesn't make it a good thing for them.

Much more eliquently put that my drawn out ramble and counldnt agree more. Its one of the reasons policitians lie, but people never want to belive it.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Flamin_Squirrel
Democracy is pretty crap when you think about it... if the goverment isnt bowing to pressure from the fickle, and sometimes stupid public, its lying to make us think they are.

There is nothing wrong with democracy.

What corrupts democracy is the party political system, the polarising of candidates makes a mockery of the whole idea of individualism over "might makes right".

My first action as PM would be to ban any political organisation with more than six members, I love to start an "anti- political party" party but you can see the problem right at the start

Maybe you need something like the The Co-operative Party have done, piggyback on top of the existing system for while.

 

[(Shovel)]

Originally posted by xane
There is nothing wrong with democracy.

What corrupts democracy is the party political system, the polarising of candidates makes a mockery of the whole idea of individualism over "might makes right".

My first action as PM would be to ban any political organisation with more than six members, I love to start an "anti- political party" party but you can see the problem right at the start

Maybe you need something like the The Co-operative Party have done, piggyback on top of the existing system for while.

There's nothing that can be done to stop individuals bargaining with each other over legislation, that's what formed political parties in the first place I would imagine. The problem is from the entrenchment of the system - candidates are dependent on party funds to get elected. In turn, party funds are dependent on third parties. And so the conflict of interests begins. It is grinding down much of western democracy.

Also, with regard to democracy in general: George Monbiot has a very good (and readable) chapter on democracy ("The Least-Worst System - An equivocal case for democracy") in his book "The Age Of Consent".

 

[dysfunction]

Originally posted by throdgrain
The Tories are VASTLY inferoir to the Labour party, even with the problems atm.
Anyone who lived as an adult through the Eighties could only have nothing but contempt for the inherrently dishonest, self-serving corrupt collection of toffee-nosed bastards that are are the Conservative Party.
Hope Ive made my feelings clear

I couldnt agree more.

And IDS is so bloody useless. His speech was one of the worst I have ever seen. If he was doing a public speaking course he would have failed outright!! He looked and sounded like a nervous wreck!

Also his main subject was saying how bad Blair is...its time to change the record I think

 

[gremlin]

from b3ta

lol

 

[rynnor]

Its funny how most states no matter how corrupt/unfair their system of government is declare themselves to be a democracy.

Ironically no country in the world actually runs as a true democracy - the greeks who came up with the idea had the people regularly voting on decisions that affected them.

Instead of this all modern 'democracies' allow for people to vote for a very limited choice of parties/leaders to make all the decisions on their behalf.

The effect of this is clearly hugely different from people voting on real decisions - this is why voter apathy is so high - people realise that their ability to actually affect policy is practically nil...

With our current state of technology there is no reason why people couldnt actually vote on all major decisions such as going to war, budgets etc. etc. but it will never happen because it goes completely against politicians interests.

 

[Deebs]

Originally posted by throdgrain
The Tories are VASTLY inferoir to the Labour party, even with the problems atm.
Anyone who lived as an adult through the Eighties could only have nothing but contempt for the inherrently dishonest, self-serving corrupt collection of toffee-nosed bastards that are are the Conservative Party.
Hope Ive made my feelings clear

Sorry but I was better off under the Tories during the eighties.

Wish I never voted for the shifty ugly fucker that is in No10. Won't ever vote for labour again thats for sure. Christ they lie more than fucking Milosivic (sp?).

 

[SoWat]

Sorry but I was better off under the Tories during the eighties.

I used to see cars with 'Free Enterprise Works' stickers during the eighties. I used to imagine they belonged to sweat-shop owners.

I too did ok during the eighties, but I was very aware that a lot of people were a lot worse off. The Thatcher years spawned the 'I'm alright Jack' generation which is morally wrong to anyone who gives a toss about their fellow countrymen.

*Of course I'm not suggesting that you were a sweat-shop owner