I am sorry....

[.z.]

...for the poor quality of the threads posted by myself in the mid-to-late hours of the evening.

As you could tell from the terrible grammar and overall "spamminess" of the threads, I wasn't completely...."with it".

Anyway; here is a thread actually worth replying to:

Why are British citizens still being held at Guantanamo Bay, with poor living conditions, no access to legal representation and not even being charged with anything?

And, more to the point, why is Tony Blair so quick to condemn Iraqi treatment of US soldiers, but keeps quiet when the US treats the citizens of his own country so badly?

 

[mank]

Word of advice: don't come near a PC when 'drunk', or whatever in the future.

 

[.z.]

Originally posted by mank
Word of advice: don't come near a PC when 'drunk', or whatever in the future.

*takes mank's advice*

 

[Jonaldo]

soem gooodo qeutiosons teehr

 

[mank]

Originally posted by .z.
*takes mank's advice*

I sounded like a twat, didn't mean to

 

[S-Gray]

tell us somethin we dont now Mank

 

[Jupitus]

If I were to follow mank!'s advice I'd never get to play anything

 

[Xtro 2.0]

Originally posted by .z.

Why are British citizens still being held at Guantanamo Bay, with poor living conditions, no access to legal representation and not even being charged with anything?

And, more to the point, why is Tony Blair so quick to condemn Iraqi treatment of US soldiers, but keeps quiet when the US treats the citizens of his own country so badly?

Fuck 'em. They're terrorists. Same goes for the stupid ****s that went over to Iraq as a "human shield". Couldn't wait to get the fuck out of the country when the war started did they?

 

[.z.]

Re: Re: I am sorry....

Originally posted by Xtro 2.0
Fuck 'em. They're terrorists. Same goes for the stupid ****s that went over to Iraq as a "human shield". Couldn't wait to get the fuck out of the country when the war started did they?

How do you know they are terrorists? No legal charges have been brought against them, and no evidence has been supplied to indicate any terrorist actions.

The simple fact is that they are muslim, and therefore a scapegoat for the US authorities (which consistently flaunt the international laws that they claim to be upholding).

 

[Xtro 2.0]

Re: Re: Re: I am sorry....

Originally posted by .z.
How do you know they are terrorists? No legal charges have been brought against them, and no evidence has been supplied to indicate any terrorist actions.

The simple fact is that they are muslim, and therefore a scapegoat for the US authorities (which consistently flaunt the international laws that they claim to be upholding).

1. How do you know they AREN'T terrorists?

2. You don't know where I work

 

[Will]

Surely the hypocrisy of the US stance on this doesn't escape you though.

"We are the good guys, God is on our side"
*detain without charge for over a year*

"He has breached international law"
*mount illegal invasion*

 

[.z.]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I am sorry....

Originally posted by Xtro 2.0
1. How do you know they AREN'T terrorists?

2. You don't know where I work

I don't know they aren't terrorists, but that's like detaining everybody in the country on the off chance that everyone might be a terrorist.

Where do you work?

 

[Gumbo]

I think that they had just gone to Afghanistan on holiday to look at the sand and the many and varied Kalashnikovs, and as such should not be detained.

 

[Will]

I don't have a problem with them being charged, but detained without charge is wrong in so many ways. Since Tony and George are special friends and all, why do we put up with them still being detained? I fail to see where the UK gains from this special relationship.

 

[Gumbo]

Yup, I do think they should get a trial, an open and fair one too, not a secret military tribunal.

However I'm sure Will and I will disagree that if found guilty of membership of Al Qaeda, and or plotting against the UK, then they should face the death penalty.

 

[Will]

Originally posted by Gumbo
However I'm sure Will and I will disagree that if found guilty of membership of Al Qaeda, and or plotting against the UK, then they should face the death penalty.

You're right, we will disagree.

For the liberal point of view, if you kill someone, you give up on them, you are saying that you will not even try to rehabilitate them.

For a more fascist point of view, where is the punishment in just switching off the lights? They die still convinced they were right, they become martyrs, and no one benefits from the killing either.

And some poor bastard has to live with the guilt of pulling the switch.

 

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Originally posted by Will
I don't have a problem with them being charged, but detained without charge is wrong in so many ways. Since Tony and George are special friends and all, why do we put up with them still being detained? I fail to see where the UK gains from this special relationship.

Thats why democracy isnt a great as everyone thinks, its just the least bad. Very few members of the public, (including myself, i hasten to add ) have a clue about the details of international relations, so if you try to form an oppinion on such matters it will invariably be inacurate. As the saying goes, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Things are never as simple as they seem.

 

[stant0s]

Well I dont believe they'd hold someone without any knowledge/info that the persons in question have done no wrong.

The fact that the people were caught and were allegedly in the ring of terrorism makes me believe its all right.

I couldnt give a monkies how they are treated.

They havent just picked on random people, they must have some knowledge - and fair play.

I doubt the treatment is worse than the way people are treated in places like iraq and dodgy middle eastern countries, and like minded places.

It amazes me why people are so two-faced as it were. One minute they are all against terrorism, then the next they find out some brits (yea who've been living in britain for 10yrs) are caught up in the mess and then the story changes, ooo get them out, they couldnt of possibly done any wrong.

the brits at guantanmo? bay are just as much in the shit as the other foreign terrorists, so why not give them a mention? Oh I know why, cos we couldnt give a monkies about them, cos they ARE terrorists... oh come on.

 

[Gumbo]

Facist might be a little strong, but I understand your point. I just feel that if you've had every intention of killing lots of innocent men women and children then you don't deserve any attempt to rehabilitate you. Killing them just saves you a fortune in keeping them alive for the next 50 years or whatever.

I think you'd find plenty of people who would press the button/flick the switch/pull the trigger, without too much trouble.

 

[Jonaldo]

Originally posted by Gumbo
However I'm sure Will and I will disagree that if found guilty of membership of Al Qaeda, and or plotting against the UK, then they should face the death penalty.

I'll disagree also.

They should be tortured but force fed and kept alive and the images should be made public as a lesson to any other potential terrorists.

 

[Deadmanwalking]

This special relationship as you put it, has less to do with mutual benefits but more along the lines of dependancy. As Tony and previous governments see it the Americans are someone they can turn to to get things done, where other countries aren't able/willing to do.

Not to mention being in bed with the worlds only remaining superpower has it's advantages. As i see it Britain not being in the Euro (Single currency) yet seen by alot as European, and being close to America puts us in a quite strong position.

And to bring that back to the prisoners. They never really gave a damn about them in the first place. Those "Human shields" were about as useful as asking Tony Blair to stop the invasion.

I will try and get a professionals point of view on it, as my step father is a Professor in International Relations he can prob give a much more informed opinion

 

[Deadmanwalking]

Originally posted by Jonaldo
I'll disagree also.

They should be tortured but force fed and kept alive and the images should be made public as a lesson to any other potential terrorists.

Thank you dear god, people like you are not taken seriously in countires like this. So you may never get near a position of power.

Oh hang on some are

 

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Originally posted by Deadmanwalking
Thank you dear god, people like you are hated in countires like this. So you may never get near a position of power.

Agreed. Hypocracy doesnt tend to go down well, especialy with terrorists, it would just give them an excuse.

Originally posted by Deadmanwalking
Not to mention being in bed with the worlds only remaining superpower has it's advantages...

Indeed it does. As i understand it, we've basicaly become the middle man between the US and Europe. The war again Iraq was pretty pointless, but going along with it, Tony has probably done this country a favour. His only mistake was to come up with a less than convincing lie.

 

[Will]

Without a trial, you'd all quite happily see the US put them to death, preferably tortured first?

Innocent until proven guilty and all that. Why not bring them home, trial them, then punish them as the law sees fit?

 

[Will]

And as for the advantages of the special relationship, you see it as in bed with the US and Europe, where you could see it as stuck between. We get punished with export taxes because the EU doesn't want American beef, but we also become a good target for extremists because we have sent troops into Iraq.

 

[Mr.Monkey]

"illegal combatants"

Fuck them. They want to go to war agains our troops, and think that once they are captured everything will be ok, and they can go back to their day to day job in britain?

Treason imo.

 

[.z.]

Originally posted by stant0s
Well I dont believe they'd hold someone without any knowledge/info that the persons in question have done no wrong.

The fact that the people were caught and were allegedly in the ring of terrorism makes me believe its all right.

I couldnt give a monkies how they are treated.

They havent just picked on random people, they must have some knowledge - and fair play.

I doubt the treatment is worse than the way people are treated in places like iraq and dodgy middle eastern countries, and like minded places.

It amazes me why people are so two-faced as it were. One minute they are all against terrorism, then the next they find out some brits (yea who've been living in britain for 10yrs) are caught up in the mess and then the story changes, ooo get them out, they couldnt of possibly done any wrong.

the brits at guantanmo? bay are just as much in the shit as the other foreign terrorists, so why not give them a mention? Oh I know why, cos we couldnt give a monkies about them, cos they ARE terrorists... oh come on.

I didn't mention the people from the other countries as I am British, but they are in exactly the same position.

They have been held in terrible conditions in a US camp with no trial or charges being brought against them. This is the issue; for all the good and freedom the US says it upholds, they hold prisoners without any of the rights they say they stand for.

How would you feel if someone came to your house, bundled you into a van, and left you in a steel cage telling you that you're a terrorist?

You can't say that just because they have been held that makes them terrorists, they haven't had any kind of charges or evidence brought against them.

They all deserve a fair and unbiased trial in the countries they come from, not to be put in front of a US military tribunal after being held for a year.

 

[Cdr]

Just to let you know, treason isn't punishable by death anymore - not since 1998.

 

[.z.]

Originally posted by Cdr
Just to let you know, treason isn't punishable by death anymore - not since 1998.

Though apparently you can still be hung for setting fire to the Queen's docks

 

[Cdr]

Nope. Nothing is punishable by death, up until 1998, the only things left were piracy on the high seas, and treason.