Games Guild Wars 2

[slaughtererer]

The difference in perspective here is that RvR/WvW is about keeps - to me that's PvE and nothing else. In that sense, zerging isn't necessarily the best thing to do, sure. As for winning PvP engagements, every MMO outside of DAoC - and to some extent Aion - reward having more numbers than your opponent than more skill and/or better tactics.

sorry eksdee but with the greatest of respect you are talking garbage here , even in the completely broken warhammer i have been on teams which have WON against greater numbers due to good play and tactics and as far as Daoc is concerened , the main focus of the RVR in that game was to win the opposition relics , to do this you must mobilise in great numbers , thats why the organised relic raids had groups with group leaders in chat groups talking directly to the relic raid leader who was usually leading the battle group , which incidently could cope with 200 people , so ORGANISED zerging has been around for years , and probably STARTED with our beloved Daoc , yes the 8v8 was great and i was lucky enough to be part of a great 8 man on classic but you cant win relics with an 8 man unless there was noone else online and even then bloody hard

 

[eksdee]

I didn't say it was impossible, I said having more numbers was rewarded (more than I feel it should be). Please don't put words in my mouth. I recognise that this style of gameplay is around and, to some extents, necessary to facilitate certain elements of gameplay - Relic raids being a good example. However, it doesn't mean I have to like it or feel that it's 'fun' gameplay.

 

[AngelHeal]

Maybe, but even in DAoC.. after getting zerged 2 times.. a good 8v8 afterwards felt wayy better then having a random 8v8..

don't know how say it proper in english but im sure u know what i mean

 

[Killgorde]

An excellent informative take on the WvWvW by Yoshi here, I would highly recommended a read for anyone not fully aware of the tactical nature of towers, supply camps and of course keeps, and the impact all of them have on your server's point scoring with respect to attaining supremacy over your two rival servers over a two week period. It also highlights the importance of supply interruption, a dynamic that takes the gameplay to a much tactical level than that offered by DaoC or Warhammer. Whatever server you are playing on will find its own level, but I can guarantee if you are on a "Dysfunctional Mindless Zerg" type server, your opposition (both of them) will be at parity with you, based on their performance in the past - you may even possibly find they have adopted the same "gameplay". I can also guarantee your server won't be pulling up any tree stumps within the bigger picture.

There will be servers that do get their shit together, and full-time zerging will not be on the to-do list of whoever these guys have calling the shots in the warzones; because it is so easy to counter tactically if the warzone is big enough. Which GW2 Borderlands are.

 

[eksdee]

Still don't understand why people keep bringing up PvE objectives in a conversation about PvP.

 

[Poag]

Can we split off this

"Oh my god i am an elite pvper, goddammit!, so i only do xyz type of pvp" into a GW2-PvP thread?

The game is about so much more and this thread keeps circling the drain of "elite pvp". Hell i've recently come accross a group of friends who hate pvp but are getting gw2 for the pve alone! I refferred them to this thread and they responded "Seems to be aload of whiney pvpers in their, we'll stick with (wait for it) the official forum" !

 

[Chosen]

Compared to DAoC, it is harder for a smaller group to beat a bigger one in GW2. But siegeweapons have a much more important role in GW2 compared to DAoC, and is one of the keys to destroy a enemy zerg that is bigger then you. To do this, you also have to make sure you got access to the supplies needed and you have to figure out strategies to make this work.

Siege weapons can be used in both offense and defense, where you can combine the two(Put up a hidden rally point and lure the enemy into a valley where you have ballistas ready to fire). Things like this increases the fun of actually organising a larger group, and this is also what will differ the more organised servers from the rest.

on Far shiverpeaks we kept on trying types of tactics that we mostly used siegeweapons and the supplies to our advantage, and it worked out great. Especially the part with having siegeweapons at a rally point where you can pull back to if the enemy numbers become to big.

Ill use the stresstest today to try more sPvP(its only 4 hours anyway), seeing that I havent really gotten a hang of it yet with my Guardian. When it comes to PvE I can't say much, but from about level 10 and above I started to have some great fun at the major events.(So I will definitly level my character to 80 first).

 

[Chosen]

Only major thing I really hope they fix is the downing system, even if it works out fine in sPvP it is to much in WvW. Some battles where we are evennumbered, it drags out to long, because people gets back up alive to easily.

 

[Killgorde]

For anyone looking at the potential for small group action in WvW (and avoiding any zerg which may be in your neighbourhood), worth checking out this vid.


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1p2gp4OPNw&feature=player_embedded

 

[Athan]

Only major thing I really hope they fix is the downing system, even if it works out fine in sPvP it is to much in WvW. Some battles where we are evennumbered, it drags out to long, because people gets back up alive to easily.

Funny that, because I found that if I was downed in WvW I got finished off within 5s maximum, barely time for the initial CD on the self-heal to be done, let alone anyone else get close and bring me back up. If you want to be SURE they stay down, finish them!

 

[eksdee]

Can we split off this

"Oh my god i am an elite pvper, goddammit!, so i only do xyz type of pvp" into a GW2-PvP thread?

The game is about so much more and this thread keeps circling the drain of "elite pvp". Hell i've recently come accross a group of friends who hate pvp but are getting gw2 for the pve alone! I refferred them to this thread and they responded "Seems to be aload of whiney pvpers in their, we'll stick with (wait for it) the official forum" !

Why jump to the conclusion that it's about 'elitism'? Enjoying something doesn't have to be at the detriment of others, which is the entire point to why games that reward zerging over all else are bad for everyone except casuals. If you feel you're unable to compete in what you coin 'elite PvP', then fair enough, but don't project your insecurities onto what I'm talking about.

It's good when games are about more than just one thing or another, but again that's the point that you're missing - DAoC was great because it supported all facets of gameplay. GW2 doesn't, which is why it's dull. It'll be a comercial success, sure, and perhaps that's all that really matters, but I feel mislead by developers who constantly harped on about invoking the 'spirit' of DAoC in WvW and how they wanted the 5v5 arenas to be a potential eSport. I see no eSport potential or reverence to DAoC outside of the fact there are open PvP zones with keeps.

 

[Chosen]

It's good when games are about more than just one thing or another, but again that's the point that you're missing - DAoC was great because it supported all facets of gameplay. GW2 doesn't, which is why it's dull. It'll be a comercial success, sure, and perhaps that's all that really matters, but I feel mislead by developers who constantly harped on about invoking the 'spirit' of DAoC in WvW and how they wanted the 5v5 arenas to be a potential eSport. I see no eSport potential or reverence to DAoC outside of the fact there are open PvP zones with keeps.

There are already videos proving you otherwise in this thread, so I do not really see your point here. Like last time, you just spout out nonesense without giving any hard proof or information that actually backs up your own statement up.

 

[Poag]

Ha, nice try with a redirect there with the

"If you feel you're unable to compete in what you coin 'elite PvP'"

Almost subtle but not very. No i feel that this long discussion about "what is good pvp" in 'some peoples minds' detracts from the discussion about GW2 as a game. GW2 is what it is, if people dont like its PvP then move on.


And its not about elitism, but about people wanting to impoe there own PvP desire on others. If you dont like the style of PvP GW2 offers (which includes mindless zerg, small group battles or arranged battlegrounds/ladders) then noone is stopping those people from leaving. At the moment the last 4-6 pages of thise thread have become a circular arguement of one group of people saying "I want XYZ PvP" the other group saying "GW2 offers that in xyz form" group one then responds saying "Oh but theres zerging too?!?!?!?! OMG THAT SUCKS and therefore is a shitty game"

It circular, its boring and its the last 6 pages over and over again.

 

[eksdee]

At what point did me saying that a game like DAoC, that supported all facets of PvP, was the ideal not get through to you? I want to see all these different things, from solo to zerg, I just want the capability to deal with it in some form other than my opponents being braindead enough to just let me walk over them.

Chosen: I watched 10mins of that video, 5 people killing people who ignore them or just run away does not mean that small group PvP in GW2 is 'fine'. Similarly, as I said before, I recorded a night's PvP in alpha where we won fights 5v20 etc, but it's not fun because beating people who are that bad doesn't offer a challenge. No challenge = no fun.

My point is that in my eyes GW2 doesn't offer you the chance to win by outplaying your opponent, it offers you the chance to win by numbers or by your opponents just being stupid.

Really don't know why you take it so much to heart that I don't like the game, if posting my opinion is so upsetting to you I suggest you do what others talked about earlier in this thread and go to the official forum.

 

[Madmaxx]

At what point did me saying that a game like DAoC, that supported all facets of PvP, was the ideal not get through to you? I want to see all these different things, from solo to zerg, I just want the capability to deal with it in some form other than my opponents being braindead enough to just let me walk over them.

Chosen: I watched 10mins of that video, 5 people killing people who ignore them or just run away does not mean that small group PvP in GW2 is 'fine'. Similarly, as I said before, I recorded a night's PvP in alpha where we won fights 5v20 etc, but it's not fun because beating people who are that bad doesn't offer a challenge. No challenge = no fun.

My point is that in my eyes GW2 doesn't offer you the chance to win by outplaying your opponent, it offers you the chance to win by numbers or by your opponents just being stupid.

Really don't know why you take it so much to heart that I don't like the game, if posting my opinion is so upsetting to you I suggest you do what others talked about earlier in this thread and go to the official forum.

OR maybe said people arent good because they've only played it limited times can't believe you expecting world beaters before the games even come out hehe.

 

[eksdee]

Only major thing I really hope they fix is the downing system, even if it works out fine in sPvP it is to much in WvW. Some battles where we are evennumbered, it drags out to long, because people gets back up alive to easily.

They made quite a lot of changes to this back in the Alpha because it was just ridiculous at some point, people were just popping up and down more than a whore's drawers. I still think the downed system in any form is one of the worst pieces of game design I've ever seen, but they at least showed willingness to change it for the betterment of PvP before so perhaps they'll improve it further.

 

[eksdee]

OR maybe said people arent good because they've only played it limited times can't believe you expecting world beaters before the games even come out hehe.

And we'd only played for 2 weeks at most also. To be honest when we got into the alpha most of the people had been playing longer than us.

 

[Chosen]

At what point did me saying that a game like DAoC, that supported all facets of PvP, was the ideal not get through to you? I want to see all these different things, from solo to zerg, I just want the capability to deal with it in some form other than my opponents being braindead enough to just let me walk over them.

And GW2 provides it all from what I have experienced myself. Just to remind I still got my doubts that you ever tried GW2 at all.

Chosen: I watched 10mins of that video, 5 people killing people who ignore them or just run away does not mean that small group PvP in GW2 is 'fine'. Similarly, as I said before, I recorded a night's PvP in alpha where we won fights 5v20 etc, but it's not fun because beating people who are that bad doesn't offer a challenge. No challenge = no fun.

My point is that in my eyes GW2 doesn't offer you the chance to win by outplaying your opponent, it offers you the chance to win by numbers or by your opponents just being stupid.

Really don't know why you take it so much to heart that I don't like the game, if posting my opinion is so upsetting to you I suggest you do what others talked about earlier in this thread and go to the official forum.

Its not that it upsets me that you do not enjoy the game, but spouting out nonesense without backing it up with any valid information except your own personal opinion over and over again annoys me. This because you give what I see false information to players that might actually want to try it out once it gets out.

And the video you saw above aint the onlyone, but if you just took your time reading the actual posts once in a while you'd see it. And there is many videos out there like it, there is also videos of people beating up zergs(Like I stated in some posts above, with tactical and clever usage of siegeweapons). Which again makes your other statement "My point is that in my eyes GW2 doesn't offer you the chance to win by outplaying your opponent" invalid.

 

[Poag]

Really if you feel i am only responding to you, although in this part of the posts case I am, then you have a problem.

There are along string of posts, similar to the one above that have been posted by people unhappy with the way GW2 plays and whining about it.

Chosen: I watched 10mins of that video, 5 people killing people who ignore them or just run away does not mean that small group PvP in GW2 is 'fine'. Similarly, as I said before, I recorded a night's PvP in alpha where we won fights 5v20 etc, but it's not fun because beating people who are that bad doesn't offer a challenge. No challenge = no fun.

So you say your not after elite pvp but then say this. Join the pre arranged BGs if this is what you want. People keep offering up this solution and you (and others) keep throwing it down. This is whats really annoying me, not the constant whining. The fact that people show you a solution and you either ignore it or say its not good enough.


Games have moved on since DAoC, they are run by companies...and do you know what companies like? Not awesome pvp, not happy players...a good bottom line. They could not give two shits about a small (DAoC was small, and its hardcore PvP fg teams were an even smaller part of that already small pool) group think about its PvP setup. So long as the masses do like it, they play it and as a whole, the people who enjoy it are more numerous than those who dont, they are happy because people play their game and pay for the opportunity.

So no, I am not "anti elite pvp" i know some people like it. I am not anti DAoC either, I played it for along time, avoided the fg myself but have friends who enjoyed it, they enjoyed doign there thing, we enjoyed doing our thing. it was annoying when they rolled into our fun, but its an open world so that kinda of shit happens, if you can't learn to deal with it. Then playing MMOs is not for you.


Another thing, the complaining about people being bad...in an alpha! Do you listen to yourself? Its an alpha, people are just about figuring out how to use the abilities in PvP with all the lag and your complaining they aren't good enough players? Really?


*When i say "you" i dont mean you specifically, its a general "you damn people" its just alot easier to use "you" in a sentence than faff about.


TL;dr
The bottom line is tho, DAoC is not a successful game. Not by current standards. Sorry, at the time it was awesome, but atm its not where "the market is at", see my bit about bottom lines above for more info

 

[Athan]

Chosen: I watched 10mins of that video, 5 people killing people who ignore them or just run away does not mean that small group PvP in GW2 is 'fine'. Similarly, as I said before, I recorded a night's PvP in alpha where we won fights 5v20 etc, but it's not fun because beating people who are that bad doesn't offer a challenge. No challenge = no fun.

My point is that in my eyes GW2 doesn't offer you the chance to win by outplaying your opponent, it offers you the chance to win by numbers or by your opponents just being stupid.

I think the main problem you're experiencing is that the whole rating/change opponents thing isn't in yet. Right now it's very random as to if you're up against similar population Worlds, let alone the PvP-competency of the players on them. Hopefully after release and a few rounds of the 2 week matchups you'll be up against people with a clue. Also there'd always be the option of transferring to a World that you're matched against, that isn't quite organised enough, to play against the people you know you'd leave behind that do have a clue.

Really don't know why you take it so much to heart that I don't like the game, if posting my opinion is so upsetting to you I suggest you do what others talked about earlier in this thread and go to the official forum.

This is at best unhelpful, and at worst some passive-aggressive bullying.

 

[Chosen]

Here is one of the videos posted in our alliance forum about the use of siegeweapons to beat a larger number.

 

[eksdee]

And GW2 provides it all from what I have experienced myself. Just to remind I still got my doubts that you ever tried GW2 at all.



Its not that it upsets me that you do not enjoy the game, but spouting out nonesense without backing it up with any valid information except your own personal opinion over and over again annoys me. This because you give what I see false information to players that might actually want to try it out once it gets out.

And the video you saw above aint the onlyone, but if you just took your time reading the actual posts once in a while you'd see it. And there is many videos out there like it, there is also videos of people beating up zergs(Like I stated in some posts above, with tactical and clever usage of siegeweapons). Which again makes your other statement "My point is that in my eyes GW2 doesn't offer you the chance to win by outplaying your opponent" invalid.

Why am I not allowed to give my opinion but it's fine for you to accuse me of outright lying? Hypocrisy on a grand scale.

As for your tiresome, idiotic nonsense about me not being in the alpha:

So can you please stfu with that now?

 

[Chosen]

Really don't know why you take it so much to heart that I don't like the game, if posting my opinion is so upsetting to you I suggest you do what others talked about earlier in this thread and go to the official forum.

Behaviour like this is nothing we'd want to go on in FH. And as stated above, I do not mind you station your opinion but FFS get something valid atleast to back it up!

 

[eksdee]

Really if you feel i am only responding to you, although in this part of the posts case I am, then you have a problem.

There are along string of posts, similar to the one above that have been posted by people unhappy with the way GW2 plays and whining about it.




So you say your not after elite pvp but then say this. Join the pre arranged BGs if this is what you want. People keep offering up this solution and you (and others) keep throwing it down. This is whats really annoying me, not the constant whining. The fact that people show you a solution and you either ignore it or say its not good enough.


Games have moved on since DAoC, they are run by companies...and do you know what companies like? Not awesome pvp, not happy players...a good bottom line. They could not give two shits about a small (DAoC was small, and its hardcore PvP fg teams were an even smaller part of that already small pool) group think about its PvP setup. So long as the masses do like it, they play it and as a whole, the people who enjoy it are more numerous than those who dont, they are happy because people play their game and pay for the opportunity.

So no, I am not "anti elite pvp" i know some people like it. I am not anti DAoC either, I played it for along time, avoided the fg myself but have friends who enjoyed it, they enjoyed doign there thing, we enjoyed doing our thing. it was annoying when they rolled into our fun, but its an open world so that kinda of shit happens, if you can't learn to deal with it. Then playing MMOs is not for you.


Another thing, the complaining about people being bad...in an alpha! Do you listen to yourself? Its an alpha, people are just about figuring out how to use the abilities in PvP with all the lag and your complaining they aren't good enough players? Really?


*When i say "you" i dont mean you specifically, its a general "you damn people" its just alot easier to use "you" in a sentence than faff about.


TL;dr
The bottom line is tho, DAoC is not a successful game. Not by current standards. Sorry, at the time it was awesome, but atm its not where "the market is at", see my bit about bottom lines above for more info

You can't compare a game released in 2001's success to game's released now in a relative sense, that makes no sense. WoW completely changed the dynamic of how MMOs are received and perceived by the gaming public. With that said, DAoC is still active to this day, longer than most MMOs lifespans by a LONG way. That's a measure of success, no?

As it goes with BGs, I just don't like them because they're all about circle-jerking objectives in the same way WvW is, just on a smaller scale. This is the core of the problem - PvP saturated by way too much PvE fluff to keep people who are too lazy to improve as gamers happy by making them feel like they're 'winning' without actually having to do anything that requires more than the most basic input by the user. And again, having elements of this is fine and GOOD for the game, but it being the overwhelming focus of the game in general across most gameplay settings is my problem - not that exists at all which is how I feel people are perceiving what I'm saying (despite me constantly pointing this out).

 

[Chosen]

Why am I not allowed to give my opinion but it's fine for you to accuse me of outright lying? Hypocrisy on a grand scale.

As for your tiresome, idiotic nonsense about me not being in the alpha:





So can you please stfu with that now?

Because you're reasoning made no sense at all from what myself and from what other members of these boarders have personally experienced. Also from the reason which Carlos brought up with you earlier in this thread.

Again, I have never disallowed you to state your opinion. But sharing the same opinion over and over again without actually coming up with something relevant to back it up gets tiresome.

 

[eksdee]

Here is one of the videos posted in our alliance forum about the use of siegeweapons to beat a larger number.

This is pretty much the point I've been making consistently throughout this entire thread - I want PvP, not PvP saturated with PvE fluff like siege weapons. What is fun about sitting in an OP cannon of doom, with no danger to yourself, firing mortars at your enemies from a distance? Might as well play whack-a-mole.

 

[eksdee]

Because you're reasoning made no sense at all from what myself and from what other members of these boarders have personally experienced. Also from the reason which Carlos brought up with you earlier in this thread.

Again, I have never disallowed you to state your opinion. But sharing the same opinion over and over again without actually coming up with something relevant to back it up gets tiresome.

And what is relevant about your posts? All I see is the same kind of opinion, just with the constant insistence that I'm for some reason lying. You can't 'win' a debate by stating the other person doesn't know anything. Likewise you've posted videos, and I've given you my opinion on them - simply because my opinion on those videos differs from yours, you acuse me of lying about even being in the alpha. I give you evidence that I was/am and you go back to saying my opinions are invalid - why are they invalid, because they don't conform to your view of the game?

The bottom line is that there is nothing 'relevant' to 'back up' an opinion on an EXPERIENCE of a game. I don't like it because I don't feel the tools at my disposal are adequate for what I would hope to experience within the game, you disagree. Fine, but that doesn't mean I'm a liar.

 

[Chosen]

This is pretty much the point I've been making consistently throughout this entire thread - I want PvP, not PvP saturated with PvE fluff like siege weapons. What is fun about sitting in an OP cannon of doom, with no danger to yourself, firing mortars at your enemies from a distance? Might as well play whack-a-mole.

You can't just place the siegeequipment anywhere and think that you will dominate. it will be wrecked and you will have wasted important resources! This especially considering if you are running in a smaller group!

Why that group of people didnt flank around or spread out is a lack of communication. which is why organising the zergs is what makes a server strong. And again this video is one of many that are already out on youtube, and this game is still in a beta stage.

Also do not forget that you can't move the siegeweapons, combined with rescource cost it is important to place it smart and think ahead.

 

[Athan]

As it goes with BGs, I just don't like them because they're all about circle-jerking objectives in the same way WvW is, just on a smaller scale. This is the core of the problem - PvP saturated by way too much PvE fluff to keep people who are too lazy to improve as gamers happy by making them feel like they're 'winning' without actually having to do anything that requires more than the most basic input by the user. And again, having elements of this is fine and GOOD for the game, but it being the overwhelming focus of the game in general across most gameplay settings is my problem - not that exists at all which is how I feel people are perceiving what I'm saying (despite me constantly pointing this out).

So what you actually want is pure Arena PvP, even if in a massive open area? Else what is there to fight over/for ? It's either just about killing all the enemy players, which I think only has meaning in an Arena setup (points/ratings, leading to some sort of reward primarily as recognition for how good you are) or you need something to fight over/for, and we're into WvW or BGs with a different score-keeping system.

And in all those options you still have the possibility of just knowing you stayed alive whilst pwning multiple people (who hopefully gave you a good run for your money) and never mind whatever score system is happening in the background.

 

[Chosen]

And what is relevant about your posts? All I see is the same kind of opinion, just with the constant insistence that I'm for some reason lying. You can't 'win' a debate by stating the other person doesn't know anything. Likewise you've posted videos, and I've given you my opinion on them - simply because my opinion on those videos differs from yours, you acuse me of lying about even being in the alpha. I give you evidence that I was/am and you go back to saying my opinions are invalid - why are they invalid, because they don't conform to your view of the game?

The bottom line is that there is nothing 'relevant' to 'back up' an opinion on an EXPERIENCE of a game. I don't like it because I don't feel the tools at my disposal are adequate for what I would hope to experience within the game, you disagree. Fine, but that doesn't mean I'm a liar.

Your opinions matters when and if you can back them up, when it comes to my own opinion of this game I always try to explain why I think so.(Such as the siegeweapon tactics, and by using videos or refering to what other people have written here).

Anyway, this will just go into a eternal loop. so lets end this discussion here to not spam the 1 GW2 thread down to much.

And sorry for calling you a liar, but the reason is what I stated above.