Games Guild Wars 2

[Chosen]

Go down well with who?

The masses? it would fail hard, pvper's are a huge minority and WoW pvper's don't like anything other than battlegrounds or arena's so that would take 9million players out of that game before it even launched.

If it was lootable pvp again it would fail hard.

If it was DAOC pvp it would probably again fail hard, people have moved on from DAOC and only a minority still play it and want another DAOC pvp type game, the masses wouldn't want a DAOC pvp game because they like their battlegrounds and arena's or no pvp at all.

A pure PVP game would be laughed at by any major publisher and never see the light of day.

Indie developed? i ask you to look at Darkfall which is literally on it's last legs and if i'm not mistaken was made pretty much by a few guys working out of their parents basement in Greece?

A pure PVP game with the backing of a major publisher such as EA/Ubisoft? will never ever happen unless things radically change the minds of those in charge of signing off the $40 million dollar cheque's it takes to get a MMO up and running these days, and in fact if SWTOR goes the way it is i don't see EA giving the green light on any MMO for some years to come.

Where do you even get this info from? "The masses? it would fail hard, pvper's are a huge minority" - people like fighting against eachother in most games showing of their chars/skills, so I do not find this valid at all. + GW2 also has battlegrounds/arenas such as WoW.

The reason why people do not play MMO PvP games, is that there havent really been any good out there besides from DAoC. Also the reason why DAoC never really had that big playerbase was because Mythic never put money into getting it known before the release. I never saw a commercial or a article about DAoC at all while I played, but I saw a couple in a PC magazine after I quit(Maybe they realized they had to reach a bigger audience, but it was already to late).

WoW became popular fast, because Blizzard has a huge fan base and it was easier for them to reach a bigger audience. ArenaNet also already have a big fanbase after the success of GW, and they seem to put more money into marketing to let everyone know that GW2 is actually there(Read several articles already in our Norwegian newspapers and magazines already.).

GW2 is far from perfect, but its trying something different for a change. And before the first BWE started over 500k had pre-ordered it already, how many have pre-ordered it til this date is unknown now. The real case tho, is to make sure that the end-game is good enough to keep the playerbaser

edit: They have probably sold a lot more then 500k, seeing that they had 500k hard copies that got sold the first days!

 

[Aada]

Who the fuck cares about WoW pvper's? there are millions of people in this world with access to a PC which can play a WoW specced game. ...

Also 8million of the 9million wow subs are gold farmers probably

I totally agree that EA probably won't bother with a new MMO for at least 2 years.. if they do then it will be F2P from the start

Who care's about WoW pvper's? well considering if a pure pvp focused game did get the go ahead it would be a priority to get a chunk of those Pvper on board a new IP yes they are pretty fucking important to any publisher handing out the multimillion dollar cheque's.

This is my whole point though a pure PVP game will never get the go ahead, hell just look at the mistakes Warhammer made battlegrounds and open world pvp in the same game and guess which part of the pvp failed? the open world because 70% of people couldn't be arsed running around in an open world pvp zone because when they died they had to run all the way back again they probably did this twice before never stepping into the open world pvp ever again.

Anyway, back on topic.

 

[Aada]

Where do you even get this info from? "The masses? it would fail hard, pvper's are a huge minority" - people like fighting against eachother in most games showing of their chars/skills, so I do not find this valid at all. + GW2 also has battlegrounds/arenas such as WoW.

The reason why people do not play MMO PvP games, is that there havent really been any good out there besides from DAoC. Also the reason why DAoC never really had that big playerbase was because Mythic never put money into getting it known before the release. I never saw a commercial or a article about DAoC at all while I played, but I saw a couple in a PC magazine after I quit(Maybe they realized they had to reach a bigger audience, but it was already to late).

WoW became popular fast, because Blizzard has a huge fan base and it was easier for them to reach a bigger audience. ArenaNet also already have a big fanbase after the success of GW, and they seem to put more money into marketing to let everyone know that GW2 is actually there(Read several articles already in our Norwegian newspapers and magazines already.).

GW2 is far from perfect, but its trying something different for a change. And before the first BWE started over 500k had pre-ordered it already, how many have pre-ordered it til this date is unknown now. The real case tho, is to make sure that the end-game is good enough to keep the playerbaser

edit: They have probably sold a lot more then 500k, seeing that they had 500k hard copies that got sold the first days!

Pure PVP players (he was talking about a pure pvp game which would have full loot presumably otherwise what's the fucking point) are a minority and a pure pvp game wouldn't be battleground focused it would be open world full loot pvp which the masses wouldn't touch.

DAOC pvp again is open world the masses won't sub to it because they like battlegrounds and arena's. I don't need too many things to back up that claim because every game since DAOC has been battleground based with not a thought to open world pvp because the majority don't want or don't care for it.

 

[Madmaxx]

Another chance to play some GW2! It's another stress-test, this coming Wednesday, 10am to 2pm PDT (so 6pm to 10pm UK time):

http://www.arena.net/blog/help-us-stress-our-servers-on-june-27

Whoo hoo! only 4 hours but oh well I'll take it

 

[grizzy]

Pure PVP players (he was talking about a pure pvp game which would have full loot presumably otherwise what's the fucking point) are a minority and a pure pvp game wouldn't be battleground focused it would be open world full loot pvp which the masses wouldn't touch.

DAOC pvp again is open world the masses won't sub to it because they like battlegrounds and arena's. I don't need too many things to back up that claim because every game since DAOC has been battleground based with not a thought to open world pvp because the majority don't want or don't care for it.

The main reason why ''the masses'' do not wan't an open pvp game is they simply don't know about it. Warhammer failed by many many many more other reasons than just having to stroll a little bit. Personally I think it was because of a very poor production quality, 2 sides and very poor pvp design overall.

A pure pvp game could work very easily. Just look at Valve's TF2 and Dota 2 business model and bam -> profit. Also a pure pvp game would have battlegrounds and arena's and duels and whatever for those very specific people but if open pvp would be done well they would play that also. There just hasn't been any game out there to do this yet.

 

[Himse]

Who the fuck cares about WoW pvper's? there are millions of people in this world with access to a PC which can play a WoW specced game. ...

Also 8million of the 9million wow subs are gold farmers probably

I totally agree that EA probably won't bother with a new MMO for at least 2 years.. if they do then it will be F2P from the start

??

Even if 10% pvp, that's 1,000,000 pvp players in WoW, and I know for a fact ALOT more people pvp, not hardcore, but definitely do BG's.

Alot of people really enjoy pvp, also I think GW2 could bring something to esports if they develop their group instance pvp.

Nobody played DAoC to pve, and how many subs did that have originally?

 

[LordjOX]

Pfff, what a lie, DAoC PvE is very fun and easy. Plus you can do it all yourself with 3-4 accounts. (not sarcasm btw)

 

[grizzy]

Pfff, what a lie, DAoC PvE is very fun and easy. Plus you can do it all yourself with 3-4 accounts. (not sarcasm btw)

The 3-4 accounts part sounds especially fun.

 

[Himse]

Eve is a great example of letter players take control and letting it develop. That game looks crazy and pretty complicated.

I'd like to give it a go, but it seems time consuming?

 

[Soazak]

Eve is a great example of letter players take control and letting it develop. That game looks crazy and pretty complicated.

I'd like to give it a go, but it seems time consuming?

It's fun but the learning curve is a little steep, I tried it for a while but just couldn't get into it as I wasn't in a position to really play a MMO, so felt I couldn't really play enough to learn it properly.

Re PvP, of course it's viable, there are lots of PvP games drawing in millions of players outside of this genre. MMOs just have a habit of doing it wrong, as it's a genre that is plagued with copy+paste developing, everyone wants to immitate WoW. UO, EvE & DAoC did PvP right for years.

 

[Aada]

Ah the days of using Vanquish axes with my Lumber pvp character in UO, bring back some great memories.

 

[Ctuchik]

Eve is a great example of letter players take control and letting it develop. That game looks crazy and pretty complicated.

I'd like to give it a go, but it seems time consuming?

Yes it's pretty time consuming and it's not only complicated, the learning curve is practically vertical.

If you're interested in player driven gameplay then EvE is right up your alley, but everything else is really boring and takes a LONG time to do....

 

[- English -]

??


Nobody played DAoC to pve, and how many subs did that have originally?

To be fair the game is over 10 years old and when it came out I had never heard of an MMORPG nevermind played one just for PVP/PVE

 

[Killgorde]

Eve is a great example of letter players take control and letting it develop. That game looks crazy and pretty complicated.

I'd like to give it a go, but it seems time consuming?

Very time consuming - especially at the sovereignty level. Also not everyone's cup of tea - no instant gratification. There is also the "consequential death" aspect, which scares many away. However, with +40k actives at peak on one server, an ongoing (8 years and counting) perpetual universe with huge wars that even get column inches on the Wall Street Journal and New York Times, in gaming terms there is nothing out there that comes close on the MMO PvP front.

Its mentioned above that large scale PvP-focussed MMO games don't draw the long-term subs like WoW and to a far lesser degree its clones, which is absolutely true. It has always been the case. There are many crying out for DaoC MkII who cannot put their finger on the exact reason why. Many have done Warhammer, WoW, SWTOR etc and are left feeling disappointed. You only have to chart the rise and fall of all these games to see a dwindling attention span (Eve being the direct opposite when you look at the growth curves).

I compare WoW and Eve (and I believe GW2 in the Eve camp) using an analogy:

My son plays Nintendo Pokemon - been playing it for 8 years (and yes - that feckin music does my head in). "Gotta catch them all" etc is the hook - and every year or two the publishers bring out a new version with more of these creatures to collect. Guess what? He has to have the latest version. Been doing very well for a decade or more (sadly for my ears). I see WoW as no different in term of the motivation for playing, albeit within a group dynamic as opposed to solo. The average player's requirement is a) to be entertained by the content provided by the devs (cue expansions to maintain that enthusiasm), and b) to get that next armour drop from "Zed Lepplin, Umpteenth Boss on the Stairway to Heaven" to complete that epeen set bonus...until Blizzard bring out the next level of bosses to get more uber gear from. The treadmill keeps on turning, and people enjoy being on that treadmill.

Players invariably enjoy killing AI (brainless) mobs for drops. Never really been something with much appeal to me as an endgame, because I have been killing AI pixels since IBM launched their first PC, and you know what? As of today I have never found an AI mob that it was not possible to kill through fair means or foul (bugging out the 6th boss in ToVL etc). Sure, some are more challenging than others, their modus operandi needs working out, and you need to be at a level determined by the devs to take them down. Ultimately, though, you know the minute you load an AI-dominant game for the first time that everything will be doable - if you individually or as a team have the nous to work it out.

Its safe. Its cuddly. And peeps like it. Until the next one comes along with more bells and whistles, maybe in a totally different setting, and you start again, levelling up, killing bosses ad infinitum within your comfort zone. And sure, the game can be enteraining - maybe like watching Coronation Street, if thats your thing or some perpetual soap opera. But does it deliver satisfaction?

If you did play DaoC at its peak, ask yourself what was the one moment in that game that eclipsed all others, and which you have since found lacking in every game you have played since (and I'm not talking about dinging 50 at the Lair, although at the time... . I would challenge anyone to say that it was killing Zed Lepplin, Umpteenth Boss on the Stairway to Heaven, maybe as a guild group, but if that is the case, do yourself a favour and stick to WoW or a clone therof, because GW2 isn't for you. If, however, it maybe a successful relic raid or defence, where you were perhaps only a very small cog in the bigger scheme of things who played your part alongside many other players in achieving something worthwhile and as importantly memorable? Or taking that keep down at Renaris as a guiild and having a bun fight lasting all night? That ring a faint bell?

What makes a PvP-centric game completely different in the first instance is your non-AI opposition. Shit man - they have brains...they actually think, and they can even hand you your arse on a plate with a great loss of pride (or in Eve's case also a rather large dent in your wallet at the top end) if they are better than you. Not safe. Not cuddly. Like playing Monopoly against someone who owns Park Lane and Mayfair with a hotel on each and bankrupts you every time before you pass GO and collect £200, and you just want to punch the grinning bastard's lights out (usually a sibling). Rough place, and it doesn't appeal to the vast majority. But for those that this kind of consensual conflict does appeal to...the buzz you get from it, win lose or draw, cannot be beaten with an AI opposition. End of.

What CCP managed to do with Eve, and what I believe the devs at Arenanet have done with GW2, is provide an environment (sand box) where first and foremost the players are given the tools to create their own dynamic content when pitched against an intelligent opposition (in some cases, at least ). As opposed to being spoonfed content to keep the game interesting. Raiding and killing that boss for the uber sword? Not relevant to the end-game of GW2. Having an overpowered class on your team or a FoM group that owns all? Shit - the same opportunities are open to your opposition. A very level playing field. With a non-AI opposition that will constantly surprise you...err...or not, if they collectively lack ambition, co-ordination and skill as a realm.

It's interesting to chart the rise and fall of DaoC as a thriving RvR game. I'd departed way before Trials of Atlantis myself, but most I speak to seem to be of the opinion that ToA killed the spark in DaoC, because to remain competitive in the lakes (I gather) you were forced into the PvE accessed "arms race". That PvE arms race which can never stop, because its what publishers are totally reliant on to keep their balance sheet in the black. Mark Jacobs' biggest howler with Warhammer (and boy, did he have a few), was to try to compete with WoW on the PvE side (for a chunk of their subs, if nothing else), rather than going back to what made DaoC a "Heinekin game" in the early years (refreshed parts other games could not reach). PvE and PvP are poles apart in terms of what they deliver, be it entertainment or satisfaction, and the twain should not be linked irrevocably (as was done with Warhammer).

As an aside, some people judge a game by how many actives it has. This is bollocks - a daft argument. You will not be able to convince one Eve regular (300k subs) that WoW is a better game (+10 million) exactly the same way you could not convince a rugby fan that football was superior, even though football would win hands down on participation. Its irrelevant how many take up GW2, as long as those that participate derive that long-term satisfaction they have been without for a long time. And the great thing is...even if GW2 got 100k actives (it will be a lot more than that), at say a 2k server cap that is 49 other "realms" for your crew to compete and benchmark themselves against.

 

[grizzy]

Its true that you wouldn't be able to have a pvp focused game with monthly subs but there are other alternative business models available that work very well.

Personally I think its achievements and recognition for your achievements that make WoW style MMO's ''successful''. Which have totally diluted the concepts of community and the actual gameplay almost completly. Some people probably derive satisfaction from eating feces, there's only what people have experienced that matters and that happens to be a lot of WoW style MMO's and infact non MMO's. To go even beyond gaming actually, personal achievement is being showed down children's throats at a very young age. WoW just happened to fill the right niche and bam, profit.

What I liked about DAoC was that it didn't seem to do too much at its early days, but after a few expansions things just wen't out of hand. This is why I think many games fail these days is that they try to juggle too many objects and it all just falls apart very fast. GW2 is keeping WvW, sPvP and PvE separate rather well so far, only the future will tell if it will actually work. This is also why games like Counter Strike, Starcraft, DOTA, Team Fortress 2, Sims and infact WoW have so many players still. They'r simple, well focused and have good production quality.

 

[Killgorde]

Eve has monthly subs btw, Grizzly, its just that you can buy them as tokens using in-game currency, from people trading cash for in-game isk legally. CCP gets paid whichever way.

GW2 ticks two very big PvP boxes, which gives it dual appeal: Being a small cog in a large successful team of co-operating guilds, and the satisfaction and recognition that this brings with respect to WvWvW, is one.

This, though, is not necessarily of great significance to the more...err...epeen (for want of a better word) out there. For them, however, there is the Conquest FG tournie play for 5-man and up - because the focus and motivation here stems from what you can achieve as a guild, first and foremost. Though it may be too-level a playing field for those who in other games relied on superior gear and imbalanced mechanics to dominate proceedings.

Apologies if I come across as anti-WoW - I'm not. Its probably great escapism and floats many boats. You could probably trace its success (in the UK at least) back to the concept of "competitive sport is bad" that has being doing the rounds for a generation. Or maybe there just aren't that many guys and girls out there in MMO land who prefer mixing it with equal intellect for fear of coming a cropper. Whether or not you live or die on a regular basis surely it has to be infinitely more fun and more challenging than the alternative?

Here's a reply from Zilly (the Shadowblade some may remember on Excal) to a question I asked the Aesirs guys what they personally wanted from GW2, and sums up, I believe, what a lot of people have been missing for an awful long time...even if they don't realise it:

Fame, conquest, glory. I hope GW 2 copies as much of the spirit and essence of DAOC's ream vs realm as possible that is balanced and places emphasis on skill, tactics, strategies and team play. I want to see a thriving community emerge similar to how it was on Barrysworld.

 

[grizzy]

Eve has been around for a long time and correct me if I'm wrong but it is also the only MMO space fighting sim out there?
People will obviously pay huge amounts of money for what fancies them but what I meant was a fantasy pvp MMO. Maybe a bit of an overstatement that it wouldn't work with subs but it would require a lot of effort to bring such a genre to a community mostly familiar with WoW

I actually have many complaints about GW2 WvW. Homeworlds seem way too small. Orb of power system could be improved, lack of proper alliance system, particle effects are all over the place, clunky UI design etc. but that can still change for the better eventually. Was gonna make a detailed post on the official forums about my worries but the forums got closed off.
The biggest thing that needs to be implemented before release though would have to be a alliance/squad system to aid communication and strategy making.

 

[Athan]

Eve has been around for a long time and correct me if I'm wrong but it is also the only MMO space fighting sim out there?

Note quite, there was Jumpgate and I assume http://www.darkspace.net/ is still going. Neither anything like the scale of EvE though.

 

[eksdee]

The biggest thing that needs to be implemented before release though would have to be a alliance/squad system to aid zerging.

Fixed that for you. ;o

 

[slaughtererer]

to say noone wants pvp is simply a bit daft there are lots of games out there that pvp and exist simply because they ARE pvp none MMO examples are CoD , Battlefield , LoL , Dota , to name a few , to say whats the point unless it is lootable is spoken like a true WoW fanboi none of the afore mentioned games are lootable but still very popular Daoc none lootable and has been going for over ten years , although it is in decline now , as for eve i cant speak for that game as i played for 2 weeks and got bored quickly as it was too slow for me.
i played WoW and got to 85 as a friend had mentioned that there was pvp at the end , the pvp for me was boring as it revolved around pve unless you went into an arena , which became very samey very quickly , WoW revolves purley around gear and for me is a very selfish game and you have to do one thing to achieve another ie i must farm gear to do the next dungeon , perpetual boredom , Daoc you got RP's for better abilities but the mass pvp reward were relics which gave FACTION wide buffs , so you played for the good of the realm as well as yourself , this is something that i believe GW2 has taken on , if you do well in PvP your entire server benefits with buffs , not just some leetist idiot bragging that they have 10 million gold and the best gear in the game , THAT imho is what PvP should be all about , not selfish gains through drops

 

[grizzy]

Fixed that for you. ;o

I think zergs are inevitable, no reason not to give them tools to get themselves more organized. Besides it would benefit organized groups much more.

 

[eksdee]

Organised zergs.

 

[Ctuchik]

Organised zergs.

What about them? We had plenty of those back in the olden days with the RR's for example. Then came the RA revamp and albs won by default, fucking SOS....

 

[grizzy]

Organised zergs.

Whats your concern here? Just pointing out zergs doesnt say much.

 

[eksdee]

The more tools give to players to make zerging easier/more efficient, the worse the gameplay gets for everyone but them. Warhammer is the prime example, public Warbands made running around as just another brainless part of a mass of morons who want nothing more than easy RPs and this essentially turns PvP into PvE because there's no challenge and no user input beyond the very basics required. If it's easy to just log on, join a roaming source of easy 'PvP points X' or XP or whatever, why should players ever improve their skills and make friends who will help them to enjoy quality, challenging PvP? This isn't to say this can only come around from FG vs. FG or whatever, Warhammer is also an example of a game where large groups had organised, somewhat high skill level battles, with Warbands fighting 24v24. However, making it easy and accessible to just run around and zerg everything down does nothing but drive away anything but casuals from the game.

Tbh this is why, for me and many of my friends, MMOs just hold no interest anymore. They're completely catered to the lowest common denominator when it comes to PvP and it's just sad and dull.

 

[Killgorde]

The more tools give to players to make zerging easier/more efficient, the worse the gameplay gets for everyone but them. Warhammer is the prime example, public Warbands made running around as just another brainless part of a mass of morons who want nothing more than easy RPs and this essentially turns PvP into PvE because there's no challenge and no user input beyond the very basics required. If it's easy to just log on, join a roaming source of easy 'PvP points X' or XP or whatever, why should players ever improve their skills and make friends who will help them to enjoy quality, challenging PvP? This isn't to say this can only come around from FG vs. FG or whatever, Warhammer is also an example of a game where large groups had organised, somewhat high skill level battles, with Warbands fighting 24v24. However, making it easy and accessible to just run around and zerg everything down does nothing but drive away anything but casuals from the game.

Tbh this is why, for me and many of my friends, MMOs just hold no interest anymore. They're completely catered to the lowest common denominator when it comes to PvP and it's just sad and dull.

Valid points, Eksee, but I'm pretty certain, GW2 will deliver big time for that minority who see it for what it is - something diametrically opposed to the WoW-esque MMO format, with an appeal that cannot be delivered by WoW. I'll elaborate.

In the first instance, the vast majority who enjoy what WoW delivers best are wasting their time even considering GW2. They are far better waiting for their next fix of a new WoW expansion with all the bling and goodies that come with it. Why? Because Arenanet aren't targeting your core WoW player. At all. If you see killing the new mega boss and getting that epeen sword off him as your reason for playing WoW, don't waste your money on GW2. Stick to what you fundamentally enjoy doing. Killing interesting mobs and collecting things, whether as an individual or as a guild, be they physical items or titles. Ad Infinitum. Mark Jacobs tried to emulate the WoW model (with the addition of a putrid PvP mechanic), and failed dismally. SWTOR? The same. Blizzard are consistently better at that kind of game than their competition. And that isn't what GW2 is about - from all I have seen, read, and played in BWE, Arenanet have gone out of their way to offer something fundamentally different, and akin to the Eve or Planetside 2 genres, both at the far end of the spectrum from WoW in MMO terms.

The "End-Game" you get with GW2 (defined as that which will keep you playing long after you maxxed level) is perpetual non-AI team competition. Small scale with Conquest. Potentially very large scale with WvWvW. On a playing field that Arenanet have gone to great lengths to be as level as possible. You prefer killing AI bosses in raids as the be-all and end-all? Picking up that uber bit of gear that makes you more epeen than the other guy? Stick to WoW, because as the song goes "Nobody Does it Better (than Blizzard), and besides, your gear in GW2 is not a dominant factor.

Eksee mentions the headless chicken aspects of Warhammer (too true - it also applied to DaoC if anyone chooses to remember that far back). It will also apply in GW2, no doubt. But, with a huge difference:

Hypothesizing six months or a year down the line: when the servers have matured, communities on those servers have been established (whether organised or dysfunctional), a pecking order will be established - both at server v server level (WvWvW) on the league tables, and as importantly Conquest (an area that gives guilds & and players more individual recognition). What will guarantee a loyal following are a few intangibles that WoW etc cannot deliver on: Pride, glory and recognition: in your realm (server, in this case) as a team, and your guild as part of that team. Or your guild being the "Man Utd" of 5-man tournament play, if thats your play. Across all servers.* A measurable benchmarking of just how good you are as a team in either format, the plaudits that come with success (if achieved), or the embarrassment that comes with failure. And no amount of WoW expansionism (content-wise) can deliver the kind of buzz you get when involved in that kind of competitive team gameplay. Ask anyone involved at the sharp end of the "sink-or-swim" rat race that has been Eve-Online the past 8 years.

On the headless chicken front (Eksee's pet hate - used to be mine before I took a shitload of chill pills ), I also alluded to "dysfunctional" servers, and the two go hand in hand. The more organised a server is as a cohesive force, the higher on that server table it will go. And the less headless chickens there will be porting into the Borderlands to represent that server.

On the flip side the zergling and PvE focussed servers will bump along the bottom of the tables, equally matched by other servers at the same level of dross (for want of a better word) with respect to fielding a competent force in the war zones. During the above process anyone who doesn't get the whole "pride, glory, recognition" thing will more than likely depart for pastures new or old (WoW, SWTOR etc).

On final numbers consistently playing the game a year from release, consider a server cap of say 5k. For every 100k active players that is 20 servers filled (eventually, when the dust settles). Initial projections are between 1.5m and 3m players at release. How many servers would it take to make up a competitive environment?

There will be many discussions, using WoW's +10 million as a benchmark, to rate the success/failure of GW2. Absolute bollocks. What actually matters is the satisfaction gained a year or two down the line by those left playing the game. I can imagine a big drop-off after release as people find GW2 not to their taste, but I also see GW2 participation replicating EvE actives growth curve thereafter, as more and more players "get" the intangible rewards, the same way they did with Eve.

*Whether EU only or EU+US combined, or whether "leagues" will be sub-divided I have no idea.

 

[Athan]

I didn't play DAoC much, and certainly not the RvRvR aspect... so how different is the GW2 setup? I'm wondering here if the fort/keep and points ticking thing in GW2 will mean that zergfests aren't actually all that effective if the end result is just that all teams (chasing each other around the map) have about the same forts captured at each major tick and thus get the same points. People with brains will realise you need to hold forts and capture others to increase your points income.

Basically the "forts/ticks for points" system is different to a "points per enemy player downed" system.

 

[eksdee]

The difference in perspective here is that RvR/WvW is about keeps - to me that's PvE and nothing else. In that sense, zerging isn't necessarily the best thing to do, sure. As for winning PvP engagements, every MMO outside of DAoC - and to some extent Aion - reward having more numbers than your opponent than more skill and/or better tactics.

 

[Athan]

Well, yes, if 'the thing' is all about killing other players then numbers will always be an advantage. You'd have to start playing silly games with (de)buffs to even things up, and that would be difficult to get right.

I can slightly see your point about keeps being PvE... to a degree. It's a combination of both: 1) PvE - walls and other static structures to destroy, plus the defending NPCs - both of which are there so you can't just steamroller a keep when the other side has fewer players around, be that because they're fighting elsewhere or it's 5am, and 2) PvP - As no-one is going to believe a keep will withstand a concerted PC assault if there are no defending PCs. The PvE aspect is just there to give you time to react to the attack. Thus they're PvP hot points.

You are never going to get your force of ~166 players in a WvWvW zone to split evenly over (key) keeps to sit and defend when there's action elsewhere, i.e. nothing like a 'realistic' portrayal of warfare. Nor in fact should you, as the enemy will just put some of their 166 (and possible the 3rd realm's 166 too) into a zerg to take them one by one.

 

[svartalf]

NOT NEWS!

No, Guild Wars 2 is not launching today
by Shawn Schuster on Jun 26th 2012 9:15AMFantasy, MMO industry, New titles, Guild Wars 20


Call it stating the obvious or call it non-news, but the truth is, Guild Wars 2 is not releasing today. Despite the fact that GameStop is claiming the contrary, ArenaNet has stated many times -- for the last six years -- that Guild Wars 2 will be ready when it's ready.

GameStop has since changed their projected launch date for GW2 on their website to December 31, 2012, but several outlets still show the June 26 advertisement.

So let this be a public service announcement for all of you tricked by GameStop's sales tactics. Enjoy yourselves in the stress test tomorrow and we'll look for that real launch date announcement from ArenaNet hopefully coming soon!