Games Guild Wars 2

[eksdee]

Surmise what you like, the reason I posted more vaguely before was because I was actually playing the Alpha at the time and didn't want the possibility of being banned for breaking the NDA.

I recorded footage of my group playing in the Alpha if you want to see 'proof' that I played it. Lol.

As for open space, I honestly can't possibly believe that anyone could find those WvW maps as having 'plenty' of open space. There's a keep/PvE objective every other step you take. Not to mention the insane range of those bullshit cannons which take half of your HP and stumble (?) you. Ridiculous shit. If you play WvW for sieging, sure, it's great. If you play it for PvP, I just found it to be a horrible zerged-out clusterfuck.

I just can't agree on the support/healing. They're too limiting and not powerful enough. The game is just the culmination of years and years of pandering towards players who cry when they lose control of their character for more than 2 seconds. Hence, no proper CC because this game is built for those casuals. It's not like it's unique, all MMOs since WoW have been built this way and it's a modern problem in all gaming - everyone thinks they have a divine right to feel like they can always win, despite whether they're good or not.

I also thought the support abilities etc seemed cool at first, the Guardian invuln dome and the shield wall thing etc, the Elementalist walls and snare fields, and in SPvP they work a lot better, but open world PvP is what I really wanted - and especially after all the propaganda they spewed about GW2 being a spiritual successor to DAoC - but in WvW they're just too weak and/or small in radius. Add to that the downed system encouraging zerging so hugely and it will just never work in the sense of creating an environment for quality PvP in an open world environment. As for opening/closing gaps perhaps the wording should have moreso been about MAINTAINING gaps, which is a big problem in GW2. You're never really stopped from moving freely - and if you are, it's a stun lock from a Warrior and you're dead anyway due to the shitty heals and the incredibly high focus on burst DPS as a consequence of the lack of heals - which makes positioning mean next to nothing. Another thing that is common in modern MMOs and another thing that ANet simply lied about when they said positioning would be important.

 

[eksdee]

You seemed to change your tune when you posted the reddit article about some high end PvPers disliking the combat, and now are trying to suggest that you're too good for this type of game as you don't believe the skill ceiling is to your standard

'Too good' is certainly the wrong phrasing as it suggests I in some way feel I have something to prove. The skill ceiling is definitely abysmally low for what I'd hoped, however. That has no bearing on any kind of 'elitism' or whatever else you're going to accuse me of, but the reason is that I actually enjoy a challenge. I didn't feel after a month of GW2 that there was much more to learn or to improve on. After two months it was just dull. After three I quit. The last time I played DAoC, it was about 9 years since I had started and I was still learning new things and there was still scope to develop interesting setups and ways to play. Sadly, I think that sort of thing is lost forever.

Edit: Also that article was written by PvE'ers, talking about how dull the combat system was. If you had any idea of my disdain for 'serious PvE', you'd find your assertion that the article changed my view on the game even more risible than it already appears.

 

[eksdee]

Oh and I should also point out you're completely and totally wrong about the 7th March being 'way after Alpha testing had finished' - where did you get that 'information' from anyway? The last time I received an email relating to the Alpha (or Core Test as they call it) was the 24th April, along with information on beta invites for all the upcoming events. Of course, you obviously know better than me because I'm a pathological liar.

 

[Soazak]

WvW has always been coined as being for the casual PvPer, they've always said it's going to be casual in order to get the average PvE type into some form of PvP-lite. While they have said a sucessor to daoc, they've been pretty clear in that this isnt to the 8v8 that DAoC had, but more to the zerg taking keeps.

Again, stun lock on a warrior? they can stun you for 6s total (not back to back I might add as they need to swap weapons), assuming you have no form of stunbreak (which every class has 2-3 of). Using warrior as an example again, they can keep themselves alive indefinately though healing shouts etc...and they're not even a support focused class. If anything right now the problem in 5v5 PvP is that it's too easy to keep everyone alive so the matches become stale.

A single Guardian can pretty much keep his group alive through their massive healing potential (for example Heal Area spell which is spammable with no cooldown for the duration of Tome of Courage). There is no less support in this game than other MMOs, it's just this one has a lot of self sufficient heals, and other forms of support for your team (proactive rather than reactive).

Never stopped from moving freely? nearly every class can cripple or immobilise you...again Warrior is what I've played most of throughout beta so I'll use that as an example..but I can name at least 5 skills from the top of my head that control/CC the enemy (bulls charge, bolas, the 1h sword leap, the 2h sword rush, the shield rush... as well as the various snares they have), while the enemy can still cast through these, they control the enemy.

I'm indifferent about the downed system, it does cater more to the zerg, but in sPvP it's more of an extra dimension to the play, where people have to make the decision to either revive or continue to support their allys (as healers have to in all games). It's not really any different to killing & rezzing in other games, the only difference is that you can rally.

The problem I have with the PvP is that there is no room for pure support players, which is something I prefer. Instead it's like a full group of Valks/Wardens/Friars in daoc.

 

[eksdee]

Well, they must have changed something with Warriors then because when I last played you could be stunlocked and killed by a Fury Warrior in less than three seconds. It needed nerfing so it's good that they did.

And yeah, I've seen lots of games like that in SPvP with teams of defensive spec'ed chars that never died. This doesn't mean the healing 'works' however, it simply means that the healing system from a teamplay perspective is so utterly broken that people have to use these dull and one-dimensional specs to stay alive. This is another problem with catering purely towards the casual market - people play only for themselves, and the class system being designed so that (as you rightly say) there's absolutely no scope for pure support players means that this problem is exacerbated even further.

Regarding movement, this goes back to what I was saying about maintaining gaps. You can slow people down, you can stop them moving for 1-2s, but it doesn't really matter. Sure, there's no immunities and so you can spam these things on one player, but in a group fight you can't tactically control areas because there's no way to maintain distance from more than 1-2 players. In all honesty, it probably doesn't matter so much in the grand scheme of things since SPvP is designed to filter the fights down from 5v5 to multiple 1v1s and 2v2s. I guess this is the problem with the game for me, it's just not designed as I'd hoped for group PvP. It's a modern MMO in every sense. It's built for ADHD kids who: cry when they get CC'ed, so there's no proper CC; cry when they can't do everything on their own, so every class has pretty much every type of ability (supportive, healing, damaging, tanking etc); cry when they don't have an ability up, so almost all abilities have very low CDs making your choice of what to use mean almost nothing in most situations; cry when they lose, so they made dying almost impossible and ultimately meaningless.

 

[Soazak]

Oh and I should also point out you're completely and totally wrong about the 7th March being 'way after Alpha testing had finished' - where did you get that 'information' from anyway? The last time I received an email relating to the Alpha (or Core Test as they call it) was the 24th April, along with information on beta invites for all the upcoming events. Of course, you obviously know better than me because I'm a pathological liar.

I'm not calling you a liar, just saying some of the things you say don't seem to make sense, that's all.

I'm not saying you weren't in Alpha Testing, it is entirely possible, though it is said on their wiki that Alpha testing was only available for 'close friends and family' - so isn't something that the public are invited to. Granted they could have made exceptions to this, or you could be in some way related to Anet staff etc. it doesn't matter either way.

Given the nature of Alpha Testing (I do UAT testing irl for a living), it would make no sense to have public play it as the whole purpose of it is internal, usually to test independant elements of software rather than how they all come together (which is done in beta). Alpha nearly always ends prior to beta starting, and as closed beta started on 16th December 2011 it seems unlikely that Alpha would continue into 2012.

Again I'm not saying you're a liar, just doesn't add up with my understanding of the game from my own experiences.

 

[Soazak]

you're dead anyway due to the shitty heals and the incredibly high focus on burst DPS as a consequence of the lack of heals

so they made dying almost impossible and ultimately meaningless.

This is what I mean about some of the things you say not making sense.

 

[eksdee]

They invited guilds to test the PvP, our guild got invited after we sent them a bunch of videos and a link to our internal wiki to show them the testing, data we had compiled etc from other games. I guess this is why they moved away from calling it an Alpha test to a Core test, as it is ongoing in parallel to the Betas. During the Beta tests they shut down the Core test servers (which you play through the dev client) and the Core testers are able to play in the beta as well - though they're not supposed to reveal themselves ofc.

 

[eksdee]

This is what I mean about some of the things you say not making sense.

Rephrase the first part from dead to downed. This is just an issue of context really. Are you dead when you're downed? Is getting someone up from downed rezzing? I don't really know, I'm so used to people being on the floor meaning they're dead that I simply refer to downed players as dead. Hence the misunderstanding of meaning. It makes neither statement any less true once the intended meaning is made clearer.

 

[Soazak]

Thats fair enough, as I said I'm not saying your a liar, just that some things are odd in comparison with what's already in the public domain. That's a reasonable explanation

 

[slaughtererer]

i agree the concept of an 8v8 or 5v5 or whatever died long ago , even in Daoc , the 8 man groups would get swallowed up by the zergs , so much so , i remember that on pryd agromon was given to the 8v8's as an agreed grp fights only , and to be fair it was very rare to get a wide variety of set up ie mid always went with 2 healers and a shammie as a base most successful alb grps were caster grps hibs always had a base of druids and bard , Daoc was the only game that i was ever a fanboi of and probably will ever be , i am wary of all other mmo's as they in the past have promised much and delivered little and as has been previously posted not all games are for everyone , in Daoc i was very lucky , i was part of one of the best 8 man groups on classic AND i also ran relic raids , as i also like the big scale stuff , as i believe , as well as others , that the pure 8v8 / 6v6 / 5v5 in open rvr is dead , those that wish to play should find ways to adapt their gameplay , ie get behind the zerg and pick off reinforcements or stragglers off the back of the zerg , or take a strategic point that would break a supply line and hold until relieved then carry on with your geurillar type action , just a few suggestions is all

 

[eksdee]

Sad but true. And equally sadly I find, and most people I've played with over the years, zerg surfing and arena PvP to get dull a lot quicker than everything else. I think the biggest problem for me with modern MMOs and being forced into simply trying to farm zergs is that you aren't given the tools to succeed based on much outside of your opponents being idiots and/or having an advantage in terms of one or more of gear, getting the jump or abusing overpowered shit.​

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Not having control over one's own fate in terms of winning or losing is what really puts me off a game. It's horrible to lose not because you played badly, but because you don't have the tools to succeed. I think that's what irritates me more than anything with GW2, but frankly my experience is also coloured by my general disappointment at the development of MMOs over the years.​

 

[Chosen]

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Not having control over one's own fate in terms of winning or losing is what really puts me off a game. It's horrible to lose not because you played badly, but because you don't have the tools to succeed. I think that's what irritates me more than anything with GW2, but frankly my experience is also coloured by my general disappointment at the development of MMOs over the years.​

Actually this was more the case towards DAoC, seeing that items made a bigger difference in DAoC then compared to GW2. And when it comes to sPvP everyone gets access to the same items and can customise it the way they want, which will rule out "winning because of items".

This also goes for the realm rank system in DAoC, a new low RR character stood close to nothing in chance to beat a well established high RR character. Making it harder for new players who do not have the RR or items to compete on the same level, even tho they might be more skilled. This is why I like the PvP part of GW2, where I find it headed towards a direction where the last one standing is the one that knows his character and enemies the best. And not entirely based on your items!

 

[eksdee]

Gear in DAoC is hardly a polarising factor. As for RR, it can make an impact sure but saying a low RR character stood 'close to no chance' of beating a high RR one may be true in 1v1, but in groups it has been proven in practice to be untrue many many times. Just look at a group like EZP that went to the American servers when Ywain first came about and trashed all the American RR11-12 groups with new characters. After RR3 they never lost a single fight.

In most MMOs, things like gear will always be a factor, but DAoC was the one you can least level this criticism at imo. The only time it was true was early ToA. With that said, you are definitely right, GW2 has got it 100% right with minimising the impact gear has on the game.

 

[slaughtererer]

to be fair though it WAS proven that us 8's were far inferior to the eu 8 man players

 

[eksdee]

As in every game I've ever played.

 

[Chosen]

Gear in DAoC is hardly a polarising factor. As for RR, it can make an impact sure but saying a low RR character stood 'close to no chance' of beating a high RR one may be true in 1v1, but in groups it has been proven in practice to be untrue many many times. Just look at a group like EZP that went to the American servers when Ywain first came about and trashed all the American RR11-12 groups with new characters. After RR3 they never lost a single fight.

Ofcourse gear would be relevant in DAoC, seeing that their stats system both had a cap and everything in defence was based on a % chance and not how well you played. Which means without a good template, capping the correct stats, then you would be inferior to one that had it. But as you mentioned gear wise would most come to 1v1 fights or equal groups fighting, because the key was the teamplay part to winning a fight!

TOA made this gap even bigger, especially with the ml10 weapons. Which had part in ruining the game for many, seeing that it was quite hard to get these kind of weapons if you were not in a well organised guild(To easy now tho on the Ywain server, as all PvE is atm.)

 

[Chosen]

to be fair though it WAS proven that us 8's were far inferior to the eu 8 man players

I think it has something about the game "culture" where the EU players seem more based on a competetive level of playing in smaller groups. But I agree here, there was not many US guild groups I can remember struggling against on Ywain.

 

[eksdee]

Ofcourse gear would be relevant in DAoC, seeing that their stats system both had a cap and everything in defence was based on a % chance and not how well you played. Which means without a good template, capping the correct stats, then you would be inferior to one that had it. But as you mentioned gear wise would most come to 1v1 fights or equal groups fighting, because the key was the teamplay part to winning a fight!

TOA made this gap even bigger, especially with the ml10 weapons. Which had part in ruining the game for many, seeing that it was quite hard to get these kind of weapons if you were not in a well organised guild(To easy now tho on the Ywain server, as all PvE is atm.)

I meant that, in a relative sense to pretty much all other MMOs, getting gear is extremely easy in DAoC. Frankly if you don't have a proper template it's because you're too lazy and nothing else, whereas in a game like WoW for example you need a TONNE of time investment to get the best gear alongside being in a 'good' guild that can clear 'hard' PvE.

 

[slaughtererer]

its a lot easier to get gear now in daoc but we MUst all remember the hours of camping / grinding TOA gear , cos that stuff DID make a difference , thats why i went to classic server

 

[Chosen]

I meant that, in a relative sense to pretty much all other MMOs, getting gear is extremely easy in DAoC. Frankly if you don't have a proper template it's because you're too lazy and nothing else, whereas in a game like WoW for example you need a TONNE of time investment to get the best gear alongside being in a 'good' guild that can clear 'hard' PvE.

I can agree with that, seeing that WoW as a PvE game made the PvE parts more challenging, where DAoC was meant as a PvP type of game. But I can still remember spending hours and hours of grinding/raiding for gear in SI, TOA and DF

 

[Anar]

Hi Guys, Just thought id give you a heads up with this deal from Tesco [link removed], not sure if its 100% guaranteed as they are not on the approved retailers list, but hey ho, worth a shot. ill be picking it up anyhoot!

see you out there!

 

[Anar]

Ooops sorry didnt mean to advertise

 

[Keitanz]

How was that advertising? wtf......

 

[Fefner]

Surmise what you like, the reason I posted more vaguely before was because I was actually playing the Alpha at the time and didn't want the possibility of being banned for breaking the NDA.

I recorded footage of my group playing in the Alpha if you want to see 'proof' that I played it. Lol.

As for open space, I honestly can't possibly believe that anyone could find those WvW maps as having 'plenty' of open space. There's a keep/PvE objective every other step you take. Not to mention the insane range of those bullshit cannons which take half of your HP and stumble (?) you. Ridiculous shit. If you play WvW for sieging, sure, it's great. If you play it for PvP, I just found it to be a horrible zerged-out clusterfuck.

I just can't agree on the support/healing. They're too limiting and not powerful enough. The game is just the culmination of years and years of pandering towards players who cry when they lose control of their character for more than 2 seconds. Hence, no proper CC because this game is built for those casuals. It's not like it's unique, all MMOs since WoW have been built this way and it's a modern problem in all gaming - everyone thinks they have a divine right to feel like they can always win, despite whether they're good or not.

I also thought the support abilities etc seemed cool at first, the Guardian invuln dome and the shield wall thing etc, the Elementalist walls and snare fields, and in SPvP they work a lot better, but open world PvP is what I really wanted - and especially after all the propaganda they spewed about GW2 being a spiritual successor to DAoC - but in WvW they're just too weak and/or small in radius. Add to that the downed system encouraging zerging so hugely and it will just never work in the sense of creating an environment for quality PvP in an open world environment. As for opening/closing gaps perhaps the wording should have moreso been about MAINTAINING gaps, which is a big problem in GW2. You're never really stopped from moving freely - and if you are, it's a stun lock from a Warrior and you're dead anyway due to the shitty heals and the incredibly high focus on burst DPS as a consequence of the lack of heals - which makes positioning mean next to nothing. Another thing that is common in modern MMOs and another thing that ANet simply lied about when they said positioning would be important.

I agree with you on a lot of thing that what you've said but there have and still will be changes. A dev has already said that he will make sure that there will be less mobs by time of release to give that extra space in the WvW zones. Those seige weapons were nerfed before last weekends beta but someone forgot to add that patch ( arrow bucket is nerfed). The downed system has been slaughtered by tonnes of players on the forums and a lot of ppl say just what you have, they encourage zerging and almost everyone have asked them to rework it for the WvW side of the game or get rid of it. As for CC, they might not see the need for it straight away but maybe down the line they will make CC better so it won't be all about smashing buttons.
I played the beta along with my old daoc guild from Prydwen and Ywain, we all liked it but have our little concerns but since their isn't really any other games out there we will play it and as i've said before, i reckon we were all spoilt with Daoc and no game will come close to Daoc's combat as no-one out there wants to risk it just to satisfy a handful of players, they would rather satisfy the majority and that sadly is the WoW type of players.

 

[slaughtererer]

i agree that the arrow bucket needed a nerf , and that the downed system is a bit daft , but its not JUST the WoW players that have ever zerged , lets face it , eight man groups in Daoc never took a relic , and in fact would really struggle to take a keep , so as i have always said , there is always a place a place for zerging , its just nice if the people that want to do their 8v8 or whatever have a place to go and in GW2 they have the battleground thing , we were very spoiled in Daoc that the eight man thing took off and there was plenty of room to roam , but yes the devs HAVE to cater for the majority , they are running a buisness , and i know of noone that made any money from catering for 100 rather than 10000 simple economics

 

[AngelHeal]

lets face it, this game is as good as games get atm...

we've been waiting for daoc 2 since toa, and that is never going to hapen. For most people a game like daoc (mmorpg) was a new thing, lots of new gamers or new to the genre. And the impression was amazzzinngg... You will never get that again, period no matter what game no matter what rules no matter what setting.

If you want to evaluate it proper do so per game and not constant <new game> vs daoc... it wont work.

GW2 is what you make of it as a player.
Same as daoc!

 

[Chosen]

A rl friend and myself will play through the GW1 campaigns starting later today, if anyone wants to join in to unlock the armor/weapons/titles for GW2

 

[Tilda]

A rl friend and myself will play through the GW1 campaigns starting later today, if anyone wants to join in to unlock the armor/weapons/titles for GW2

Chosen, how often are you playing? I'm keen, but have exams coming so dunno how much a week I could do.

 

[Soazak]

Chosen, how often are you playing? I'm keen, but have exams coming so dunno how much a week I could do.

If you're just going for the bare minimum (30/50 gives you all item, everything 30+ is just titles), it's a fairly easy game, you basically just need to finish the three campaigns and collect a few easy stuff.

I've been playing it just two months in between SW:Tor and other stuff, and I'm on 44/50. I did the Factions campaign in one afternoon..

It's a really fun game even if you're solo imo