GOA WAR Website Petition

[Pohan]

While the website definitely is one annoyances, it is more the overall attitude and service level of GOA which should be targeted.

Especially such as the lack of Realm War and Server status this long after live is simply disgustingly poor service level, for one thing. "Technical difficulties" or not, and "two to tango" or not - just give us the damn XML file if you can't make the website work.

I can live with a shitty website, as long as the content on there is good and fast updated, but even that seems impossible with much of the news value hidden away on user forums, for some obscure reason.

I'd love to sign this petition, but alas - GOA have never listened to customers, because we are just "bashing" out of hatred.

 

[Gef]

Sites like this are just spitting the the face of everyone who is working hard to try and improve web standards and accessibility.

It removes any possibility for Google spiders to index any of it, so if you actually wanted to look for a specific news article or page, your shit out of luck your going to have to navigate manually through their clunky interface to find it.

There's no text so you could never print anything from the site directly from the browser. So all those game guide pages, if you wanted a printed reference, you better go elsewhere.

The fact that there is no fallback AT ALL is shocking for a company of GOA's size. Its a real step backwards in web technology, not forwards.

The worst thing about it is it adds absolutely nothing to the site, its not even like it has any fancy animations or anything.

Edit: Also it doesn't work in Chrome, it eats 100% CPU and cuts off half way down longer pages.

 

[MagnusGOA]

I've passed this petition along to people within GOA and we'll be following it. Not that it's really needed - we're keenly aware of the general perception of our webpage as it is.

Obviously, Community Management have compiled many reports on this topic and we've continuously worked for a change. Events have recently taken a turn for the better and I've gained renewed hope for a real change. There's really nothing conclusive I can share on this at the moment but I certainly will as soon as I'm in liberty to do so.

Do know that this is something close to my heart and we're pulling all the strings we can here.


-Magnus

 

[Jess]

Have this petition been posted on the other boards as well?

Warhammer Alliance for example?

Might even get Mythic's attention that way

 

[Gef]

Do know that this is something close to my heart and we're pulling all the strings we can here.

That's good to hear, I've been in web development for many years and know how the cogs in larger companies turn. Often key decisions are made by people higher up who really don't have the knowledge or are informed enough to make them.

Its a shame really and I feel for the guys who have made it, I know how much work making Flash sites can be. But it really is a case of the wrong tool for the job.

If you want to create some flashy marketing based site to sell your new game or movie then so be it. But creating an entire information portal site complete with management tools in something like Flash is just crazyness.

Flash is for presentation not information.

 

[Penlid]

Have this petition been posted on the other boards as well?

Warhammer Alliance for example?

Might even get Mythic's attention that way

I dont have an account there, but feel free to post it anywhere you like.

 

[Ormorof]

i signed up, i hate the flash webby so difficult to use

 

[Phantomby]

If you want to create some flashy marketing based site to sell your new game or movie then so be it. But creating an entire information portal site complete with management tools in something like Flash is just crazyness.

Flash is for presentation not information.

Bing! hit the nail on the head.

Hope to see some updates regarding this matter on GOA's website tbh. Then maybe we will feel like we are being listened to.

 

[Raven]

Events have recently taken a turn for the better and I've gained renewed hope for a real change. There's really nothing conclusive I can share on this at the moment but I certainly will as soon as I'm in liberty to do so.

Sorry Magnus I think you are a brilliant CM but I can't quite help having massive deja vu with that

 

[MagrothJ]

I've passed this petition along to people within GOA and we'll be following it. Not that it's really needed - we're keenly aware of the general perception of our webpage as it is.

Obviously, Community Management have compiled many reports on this topic and we've continuously worked for a change. Events have recently taken a turn for the better and I've gained renewed hope for a real change. There's really nothing conclusive I can share on this at the moment but I certainly will as soon as I'm in liberty to do so.

Do know that this is something close to my heart and we're pulling all the strings we can here.


-Magnus

Thanks Magnus.

 

[Popov]

we're keenly aware of the general perception of our webpage as it is.

Just incase you aren't quite clear enough on that.......we think it's SHIT!

 

[Lubbock]

Thanks Magnus

 

[Frozenheart]

Thank you Magnus!

 

[Punkcheese]

Obviously someone at GOA needs a good beating with a clue-stick, so here's a few things that you can put on it:

The short version: Flash sucks hairy, smelly donkey balls.

The long version:
- Flash was originally meant for multimedia presentations and games - not whole sites. And that's the way it should be.
- Despite efforts by Adobe and others, Flash is not really accessible. It's getting there but it's still nowhere near HTML, and probably never will be.
- Usually doesn't work on mobile phones and similar. When the Realm War pages goes up sometime around 2045AD this could actually be important (assuming there's anything worth looking at).
- Often requires a fair amount of CPU power, even for the simplest things.
- Requires the installation of a plug-in, which - depending on any number of things - may or may not be up to date or even installed/installable.
- Usually messes with the expectations and habits of the user.
- Where did my right-click/context menu go?
- While not generally considered insecure it has certainly had it's share of problems, some of them quite recently.
- Does not degrade gracefully (see point about mobiles) [1] [2] [3]. To ensure that everyone can access the content basically means having an HTML version as well. And then you might as well just stick to that.
- Check Morons in web space! Quite a few of those points are equally valid for Flash, and are even "encouraged" when using Flash. Pro Tip: Print it out and stick it in a place where management and the web team can see it.

Problems specific to WAR-Europe:
- Compare, say, the latest Grab Bag and Witching Night info. Notice how the GOA versions lacks presentation and actually manages to not work properly (try clicking all the images for Witching Night and see what you actually get).
- It does NOTHING that plain HTML + CSS and a bit of JavaScript can't do just as well or better. With the exception of the "main" animation, which would probably be fairly heavy should it be done as an animated GIF.

That said - Credit where credit's due.
Whoever made the war-europe site does seem to know what he's doing:
- Back/forward buttons (usually) works.
- It, for the most part, looks nice and is well laid-out. Please do keep this when redoing it in HTML. While Mythic's may be functional, it's not terribly pretty.
- It's not overloaded with useless and wasteful (as in CPU sucking) animations.
- It loads reasonably fast.
- It's actually possible to select and copy text.
- ... Hmm ...
- I think that's about it.

Oh, Magnus, feel free to submit your horror stories to The Daily WTF I'm sure you have plenty of them. Come to think of it, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if there's already a story from GOA.

 

[Punkcheese]

Since I can no longer edit my previous post:
Burningbird | The Importance of Degrading Gracefully
Another good article about graceful degradation.

 

[Zebidie]

As a web developer myself I've worked hard for many years to get web standards and accessabity into the minds of clients/designers and marketing people. I've come to accept that its a pretty impossible goal to aim for, many clients and consumer groups dont give a monkeys bottom about it and will whine and moan if the site doesnt have tons of images, flash and a design thats practically impossible to develop without tables.

I've been developing web sites since 1997 and worked with every version of Flash since FutureSplash. I personally dont have an issue with companies using Flash on thier sites depending on the target audience and how they use it, I do have a problem with the site being made poorly though and unfortunatly the war-europe site is just a poor implementation of flash.

It removes any possibility for Google spiders to index any of it

This used to be the case but a of earlier this year google can index text in flash sites. Adobe gave them a special version of the flash player that thier spider can use to read flash movies. Heres a link if you're intrested Official Google Webmaster Central Blog: Improved Flash indexing theyre working with Yahoo to do the same with thier search engine as well.

 

[SonicBorg]

I've passed this petition along to people within GOA and we'll be following it. Not that it's really needed - we're keenly aware of the general perception of our webpage as it is.

Obviously, Community Management have compiled many reports on this topic and we've continuously worked for a change. Events have recently taken a turn for the better and I've gained renewed hope for a real change. There's really nothing conclusive I can share on this at the moment but I certainly will as soon as I'm in liberty to do so.

Do know that this is something close to my heart and we're pulling all the strings we can here.


-Magnus

I fail to see what the issue is, why is it so hard to realise just how crap the web design is on GOA websites and that you need to fund a teenager out of school to do a better job. £15 per weekend should do it.

 

[Punkcheese]

I fail to see what the issue is, why is it so hard to realise just how crap the web design is on GOA websites and that you need to fund a teenager out of school to do a better job. £15 per weekend should do it.

The problem - most likely - is a manager, or someone else high up in the chain of command, with a Flash fetish.
The way this often works is that said manager has heard/read that all the cool kids uses Flash, Java or whatever and therefore his team/company has to use it as well. Never mind that it's the wrong tool for the job and everyone under him says so; since "everyone else uses it", it must be the only thing that works. Browse around on The Daily WTF a bit and you'll find several stories like that.
That said, the design itself is not bad; it's the fact that it's done in Flash when HTML would have worked so much better, that's the problem.

 

[arknor]

so when do we get realmwar pages?

 

[Penlid]

Could always take GOA to trading standards for false advertising. That might wake the vague bastards up.

 

[Xandax]

Sorry Magnus I think you are a brilliant CM but I can't quite help having massive deja vu with that

Yeah - sorry to say but we've been spoon-fed with promises and good intentions (well, apparently good intentions) but with very little action to back it up and changes from this.

It is empty words to say that "you listen" etc, when nothing seem to change.

 

[Penlid]

Just to knock a nail on the head here. Someone who signed the petition mentioned the DDA which i didn't think about before.

I showed my Uni lecturer which deals with Professional Practice in Computing and she agreed with me that the GOA Site does not conform to DDA Regulations as they do not provide a text based alternative website.

So the question is , because they're in france are the rules different? Or... as my lecturer said, they can be reported for this as their website does not meet the W3C standards either.

 

[Cadelin]

So the question is , because they're in france are the rules different? Or... as my lecturer said, they can be reported for this as their website does not meet the W3C standards either.

DDA is a UK law so doesn't affect a French company. W3C as far as I am aware is just a set of guidelines.

You also have to remember that GOA = France Telecom so you will have trouble forcing it to change even if it was breaking laws.

 

[Penlid]

W3C is more about accessibility which should be provided i thought.

However the french DDA:

* [French] Circulaire du 7 octobre 1999 relative aux sites internet des services et des établissements publics de l'Etat, 1999 (Government circular of 7 October 1999 concerning internet sites by state public establishments and services)

Additional information:

* Translation of extract from government circular: "People responsible for web site will particularly pay attention to provide access to information to all Internet users, notably people with disabilities, blind users, visually impaired or hearing impaired. They will find on the MTIC site [formerly at http://www.mtic.pm.gouv.fr/standards/accessibilite/] a document on this topic. They can also refer to the level 1 recommendations of the World Wide Web Consortium devoted to accessibility of Web Content which are available at the same address.

 

[Bahumat]

Just to knock a nail on the head here. Someone who signed the petition mentioned the DDA which i didn't think about before.

I showed my Uni lecturer which deals with Professional Practice in Computing and she agreed with me that the GOA Site does not conform to DDA Regulations as they do not provide a text based alternative website.

So the question is , because they're in france are the rules different? Or... as my lecturer said, they can be reported for this as their website does not meet the W3C standards either.

The Warcraft 3 Standards? I'd love it if you were right and they had to make a text based one hehe

 

[Penlid]

The Warcraft 3 Standards? I'd love it if you were right and they had to make a text based one hehe

The World Wide Web Consortium = W3C

Here is an idea so for examples sake i have difficulty reading some text and want to make it bigger as it affects my eyes and is giving me headache or if im partially sighted

I log onto the GOA website and notice that the text is quite small as with other websites i want to make the text bigger, oh i can't! With flash increasing text size or even zooming does not work.

This does not them conform to the rules and regulations of the W3C nor does it to EU Law.

Therefore, Magnus if you read this. Someone needs to pull out their finger otherwise they're going to have a case on their hands.

 

[Flimgoblin]

There's ways to make Flash accessible (though the main efforts tend to be more about video/audio content) but it's a whole load of effort for what could be just text on a page...

DDA only really applies if you're restricting people from accessing a service - given you'll have the same issues playing the game as you'll have accessing a flash website if you're blind/partially sighted it's probably hard to make a case for.

I'm no lawyer though

Punkcheese says it well:

That said, the design itself is not bad; it's the fact that it's done in Flash when HTML would have worked so much better, that's the problem.

Flash in itself isn't always a bad thing, but the site doesn't gain anything from being in Flash (other than annoying some people and killing the right-click/mobile browsers).

 

[Penlid]

You can scale the UI ingame, and text size. I know someone who plays this game and has the UI scaled up unlike most people the UI is scaled down, and text size is really in your face. Mythic made the UI to conform with regulations and their website too. GOA just dont give a shit.

 

[Urme the Legend]

Time to fix the god damn website soon..

I went there to check Realm WAR (which hasn't been updated in 2009 at all) and I got this website:

http://www.urme.com/wareurope.jpg

Funny? A company this big running a large mmorpg in Europe should have a much better website.

 

[MagnusGOA]

Time to fix the god damn website soon..

I went there to check Realm WAR (which hasn't been updated in 2009 at all) and I got this website:

http://www.urme.com/wareurope.jpg

Funny? A company this big running a large mmorpg in Europe should have a much better website.

We had some issues with our website yesterday, resulting in a 1103 error as well as the problem your screenshot show. These issues have now been solved and a simple flash update should fix it for you.


-Magnus