[RANT] Fix the fucking WE's!

[Calaen]

Agree with alot of what has been said about WE's versus tanks, but against clothies I think they are fine.

You cannot make a true determination about WEs based on one combat log in isolation. Yes, WEs can kill things fast, but that's because we HAVE to do so. The WE in the example most probably died straight after effectively making it a suicide mission, and that happens alot.

Arguing about WEs vs WHs is also daft - standing toe to toe, then yes, the WE will win, but where is the WE ranged ability? You are comparing apples with bananas

A good WH will not fight you toe to toe. You'll be parried and disarmed then systematically destroyed (yes I know we have sever blessing but by the time yuo respond with that an autoattack has swung and you are disarmed ).

Of course there are circumstances where you can get one over a WH for example they are afk or they are afk I prefer the afk method!!!

Speccing just to kill WH's takes to much of the group utility of my class away.

 

[Aiteal]

Arguing about WEs vs WHs is also daft - standing toe to toe, then yes, the WE will win, but where is the WE ranged ability? You are comparing apples with bananas

30ft finishers that require you to be in melee to build accustaions counts as "ranged" now?
Actually, with kisses up, a WE's throwing knives will outdamage a WH's snap-shot by a large margin

Yes, WEs can kill things fast, but that's because we HAVE to do so

as do WH's
The difference is that the DPS and spike damage of the WE gels better with the archetype design than 30ft range on finishers

 

[Platin]

This class is most ridicoulus class in a game, and i can't believe there are not really any noteworthy patches coming which nerf them, they really need it.

Their damage output is just sick, no other class ingame can acheive this.

Exin is the name your looking for in the pics

Since the WH (their counterpart on order side) are even more imbalanced, they should stay the way they are.

 

[Aiteal]

Since the WH (their counterpart on order side) are even more imbalanced, they should stay the way they are.

You can't actually be serious
Can you?

 

[Tiani]

You can't actually be serious
Can you?

I also lol'd a bit irl

 

[Nate]

If a tank is guarding a ranged healer/dps he should have time to get to the WE and stop it from killing the guarded target, theres something wrong with the game when theres absolutely no chance of that hapenning as the amount of damage coming from the WE is too high to do so. What's the point in a tank spending points in defending/protecting if his target still dies in 3 seconds?

 

[`mongoose]

You can't actually be serious
Can you?

You realise this will just result in a "no, you!!" response?

Seriously - Maybe it does need a little looking at. Maybe we should wait for patch 1.1 ?

I can assure you guys that I had the same from WH all the time on my shammy until I learnt to spot the colours of the debuffs and realise what they meant.

I must have killed myself so many times until a WE told me what the little swirls were. Likewise I find myself chuckling every time my Gork SeZ Stop get's someone - I just wish it wasn't a morale ability so I could spam it

Putting it lightly - get as much +w as you can and stick with friends. If you don't a WE will get you and when they do you can only blame yourself.

Both sides have their fair share of class whiners. Just ignore them and try not to lump the whole of that side into the OMFG X side Whiner bin.

Patch 1.1 or 1.06 or whatever they're calling it these days will ahve alot of tweaks in it and maybe then we will see what the score is. Personally I think the balance isn't as far out as people would like us to believe.

M

 

[Aiteal]

You realise this will just result in a "no, you!!" response?

I was hoping more for an explanation as to why WH's are more imbalanced than WE's

 

[Calaen]

I was hoping more for an explanation as to why WH's are more imbalanced than WE's

Its not imbalanced stop using the word. I do not want balance I want to kill things and have things kill me!!!!! everyone focuses on one class you have to look at the whole picture.

Not many WE's come out on top of a WH, if they do there spec has been picked specifically to do that. You say oh noes the range thing is crap, but that allows the WH to stay away from his target which means he does not have to hang around in the middle of a pack for as long as a WE does.

 

[Aiteal]

Its not imbalanced stop using the word.

You should probably go back and read the post I was refering to before throwing a wobbly

everyone focuses on one class you have to look at the whole picture.

I am
The whole picture
The one the devs laid out is that WE's should be weak versus Tanks and Melee Healers
They aint.

Not many WE's come out on top of a WH, if they do there spec has been picked specifically to do that. You say oh noes the range thing is crap, but that allows the WH to stay away from his target which means he does not have to hang around in the middle of a pack for as long as a WE does.

Well, the first bit is anecdotal

Stay away from his target?
No, the "range" comes from finishers
Which require melee
Thats like saying a WE can stay away from her target as she has throwing knives
And a WH will have to hang around longer as with lesser spike damage they spend more time at the target trying to get the kill in the first place.

It's almost as weird as a guy on WHA who said that WH's were better as they can "shoot their way out" of a fight

 

[Calaen]

Well, the first bit is anecdotal

Stay away from his target?
No, the "range" comes from finishers
Which require melee
Thats like saying a WE can stay away from her target as she has throwing knives
And a WH will have to hang around longer as with lesser spike damage they spend more time at the target trying to get the kill in the first place.

Like I said earlier a WH will have his target disarmed in a second if he is any good that gives him 5 seconds to get whatever he needs to get out and use his ranged.

I should be able to kill a melee healer. I have two weapons and they aint carrying a shield. I use heal debuffs which counters his healing so I should win. Again if said target has certain abilities up on his moral bar it might be a different story, the unfortunate things is I like the majority of other are average players. I on one hand don't care how many times I die to anyone. Its all fun. A lot of other average players feel they are good players and therefore expect to win more than they lose regardless of who they fight.

I wish someone would make a game where only people like me played. That way eveyrone would just have fun killing and dying and not moaning.

 

[Jupitus]

The thing that makes them appear to be OP, especiallt to clothies is the way it happens, countless times I have lost half my health by the time the WE is even on the screen, then its just basically stand there and die, ES really is an IWIN button imo, you cant run, but you cant afford to stand their either, both reactions to the skills will net the WE the result she is looking for a kill, it has 0 chance to fail, it is guaranteed death in almost every possible circumstance, and fine you may die after, but I have watched WE's kill 2 - 3 targets before they finally die a lot of the time, and they usually dispatch people in 6 second or less, and people call BW overpowered coz they can dot people up. lol

I do think WE's are slightly overpowered, I expect to be ass owned by them when they pop up next to me, its just the fact that no matter how good a player I am or what skills I have available they are going to win unless the whole Order healer team focus heals me.

Perhaps it is a game performance thing then, with lag giving the edge in favour of the WE, but it's a close call in my view. A point worth noting for those looking at the upcoming patch - MJ has openly stated they dont want ot nerf things, but to adjust and buff things instead, or words to that effect. When I read the patch note previously available there was almost zero mention of WEs, which to me implies they will stand still while other classes get some lurve, so perhaps things will be a bit closer after that.

I certainly agree that I would be disappointed if I got a 1v1 drop on a clothie and couldn't win, but in all honesty situations like that ARE rare in the real situations the game throws up.

 

[Vintersorg]

Ah well, I saw this one on my guild's forums and I just couldn't keep myself from posting it, after reading this thread...

 

[Jupitus]

I on one hand don't care how many times I die to anyone. Its all fun. A lot of other average players feel they are good players and therefore expect to win more than they lose regardless of who they fight.

This is my viewpoint aswell, so I don't mind suicide runs in the slightest

Tor Anroc, for example - Order have the bauble, I encourage folks to regain and hold the hill then set off on my own after the carrier, regardless of their class, to try and get enough damage on them for the bauble to drop... it often works but I always die

 

[Jupitus]

Ah well, I saw this one on my guild's forums and I just couldn't keep myself from posting it, after reading this thread...

Hahaha!!!

 

[Calaen]

It's to close to the truth!!!!

 

[Aiteal]

Like I said earlier a WH will have his target disarmed in a second if he is any good that gives him 5 seconds to get whatever he needs to get out and use his ranged.

Use his ranged?
Have you any idea how WH's executions work?
Use his ranged?

Did WH's get BFG's last patch that I missed?

If you have the opponent at a percentage health were running away and using a 30ft finisher would kill them
You're better of just firing it and not giving their healers an extra couple of seconds to heal your target whilst you run off to "use your ranged".
If your opponent isn't going to be killed by 1 30ft finisher
Why would you possibly move away from them?
Given that you'll have to move back into melee range to do any further damage to them.

I don't see where you are going with this.

 

[Tiani]

Perhaps it is a game performance thing then, with lag giving the edge in favour of the WE, but it's a close call in my view. A point worth noting for those looking at the upcoming patch - MJ has openly stated they dont want ot nerf things, but to adjust and buff things instead, or words to that effect. When I read the patch note previously available there was almost zero mention of WEs, which to me implies they will stand still while other classes get some lurve, so perhaps things will be a bit closer after that.

I certainly agree that I would be disappointed if I got a 1v1 drop on a clothie and couldn't win, but in all honesty situations like that ARE rare in the real situations the game throws up.

Thats the thing though, its not that you can win its more like you WILL win 100% and imo that is just plain wrong, having an advantage over another specific class is all well and good but it should not be 100% foolproof.


On the MJ crap he lies, he said he didnt want to nerf anyone then slapped loads of nerfs on BW/Sorc's (sorry but losing 15% crit chance in my eyes is a massive nerf, not even a little baby step nerf its huge!) and nerfed healing ?

So if BW/Sorcs are apparently doing too much damage and get it nerfed, where is the nerf to the sick amounts of DPS the WE puts out, I know the situations are different etc etc but still I cant say how its justified, WaR was supposed to have a higher TTK than most games but this just doesnt work for the WE class, I die quicker to WE on my BW than I did against Rogues on WoW with my mage, and even when they ganked you at least you had a slight chance of surviving, not like 'oh shit where did half my HP go, oh these a WE *dead*

It sucks but its one of those things I guess, personally I hate stealth!

 

[Aiteal]

On the MJ crap he lies, he said he didnt want to nerf anyone then slapped loads of nerfs on BW/Sorc's

Straight from the horse's mouth - Warhammer Forums

Hey guys.

I'll take a look into Detonate... We did have a fix in the original 1.0.5 patch notes about fixing the stat contribution on it. However that seemed to have gotten deleted when we put together the 1.0.6 notes.

Aside from that this thread has been VERY heated. I understand why as well, however Bright Wizards by far up and beyond any other career (including Sorc) were the complete reigning kings of damage by an very large margin. We had to bring you down, it wasn't an option to bring everyone else up.

Yes I know this sucks, but at the same time we tried to do it in such a way that you also took less damage (Lower miscast chance). Yes I know this seems like a pitiful bone to throw you for the damage reduction but it was appropriate.

Bringing the damage down will also allow us to go back in the next few patches and balance better between the 3 spec lines. We definately want to take a look at Immolation and Incineration and make them both match up better, but this was somthing we just couldn't do with the overall damage being as high as it was pre 1.0.6

-Agershowitz_EAMythic

 

[Tiani]

Ignore my tard typing im incognito at work

 

[Flimgoblin]

the 30ft range helps when you get rooted and they get out of melee range at 10% hp....

Not sure I'd personally go for that over more damage but I dunno the whole story.

 

[Aiteal]

the 30ft range helps when you get rooted and they get out of melee range at 10% hp....

Not sure I'd personally go for that over more damage but I dunno the whole story.

It does yeah
That the theoretical advantage

But if your counterparts spike DPS is that much higher that the opponent doesn't get out of melee range at 10%
Where's the advantage?

 

[Tiani]

Straight from the horse's mouth - Warhammer Forums

Very large margin I beg to differ, we did lots of damage sure but not by a massive margin

Average non BW RDPS puts out about 60 - 80k dmg in a scenario, I do around 150k (and thats probably a lot of AOE buffing damage) but when you factor in backlash damage I probably do 10 - 20k more dmg than say a SW ? but for the risk envolved I think thats about right imo.

Without crits the damage really is pathetic

Not that I am moaning, I will continue with my BW of course and I will still melt face in pvp, just be a LOT harder.

What worries me is that SW/SH/Magus/Eng etc will be putting out the same amount of damage as me without the inherent risk of backlash damage.

 

[Calaen]

We are never going to agree.

 

[Tiani]

we probablt do agree, im not arguing against you in any way mate, just I think WE should do slightly less damage than they do now, or some other way to hinder them. I dot expect to win but I would expect a small meager chance at survival

 

[Calaen]

we probablt do agree, im not arguing against you in any way mate, just I think WE should do slightly less damage than they do now, or some other way to hinder them. I dot expect to win but I would expect a small meager chance at survival

I was on about aiteal

We kind of do agree.

They are reducing the Elixir of insane power which will gives tanks a chance or something I aint carnage spec so I don't care though

I didn't want any buffs either, I just wanted them to fix the couple of abilities that are currently broken for my class and I would have been more than happy.

 

[Mr_Grumpy]

Ok id love to see other careers have this. Using a dps meter, ive recorded since launch that 55% of all damage done to me is from myself. Ive killed myself more than any other class.More than bitchelfs.

Wanna try that out guys? seriously lets have it everytime a tank taunts he builds some bloodpressure, until eventually theres a chance he has a small cardial infraction and takes damage.

Same for lets say, squig herders. Everytime you fire an arrow you build Whitefinger. Each arrow loosed buids this until your fingers are numb and you have high chance of shooting yourself in foot and taking damage.


Then bumped everyones damage to Bright Wizards level. THEN you will still all bitch and moan about how bright wizards or some other classs have x ,y, and z.

BW have a reason and a mechanic to dish the damage but they also have high chance to damage themselves.Get over it.By calling for nerfs youre all falling into old mmo ruts.Nerf this then that becomes better than this and nerf that to be better than this etc. Buff, thats what is needed and fixing resists would help too.


Problem with WE's is that they can hit when dead and hit so fast that server cant keep up.They get rooted and are still hitting melee even when youre miles away. They are atm a pita but then lots of classes are in their own way.

 

[Vintersorg]

Ok id love to see other careers have this. Using a dps meter, ive recorded since launch that 55% of all damage done to me is from myself. Ive killed myself more than any other class.More than bitchelfs.

Wanna try that out guys? seriously lets have it everytime a tank taunts he builds some bloodpressure, until eventually theres a chance he has a small cardial infraction and takes damage.

Same for lets say, squig herders. Everytime you fire an arrow you build Whitefinger. Each arrow loosed buids this until your fingers are numb and you have high chance of shooting yourself in foot and taking damage.


Then bumped everyones damage to Bright Wizards level. THEN you will still all bitch and moan about how bright wizards or some other classs have x ,y, and z.

BW have a reason and a mechanic to dish the damage but they also have high chance to damage themselves.Get over it.By calling for nerfs youre all falling into old mmo ruts.Nerf this then that becomes better than this and nerf that to be better than this etc. Buff, thats what is needed and fixing resists would help too.


Problem with WE's is that they can hit when dead and hit so fast that server cant keep up.They get rooted and are still hitting melee even when youre miles away. They are atm a pita but then lots of classes are in their own way.

Nice ideas, except that the damage done by tanks/archers doesn't come anywhere near the damage Bright Retards and Sorcs dish out...
Believe me, when you're on the receiving end, you notice the difference

 

[Calaen]

Ok id love to see other careers have this. Using a dps meter, ive recorded since launch that 55% of all damage done to me is from myself. Ive killed myself more than any other class.More than bitchelfs.

Wanna try that out guys? seriously lets have it everytime a tank taunts he builds some bloodpressure, until eventually theres a chance he has a small cardial infraction and takes damage.

Same for lets say, squig herders. Everytime you fire an arrow you build Whitefinger. Each arrow loosed buids this until your fingers are numb and you have high chance of shooting yourself in foot and taking damage.


Then bumped everyones damage to Bright Wizards level. THEN you will still all bitch and moan about how bright wizards or some other classs have x ,y, and z.

BW have a reason and a mechanic to dish the damage but they also have high chance to damage themselves.Get over it.By calling for nerfs youre all falling into old mmo ruts.Nerf this then that becomes better than this and nerf that to be better than this etc. Buff, thats what is needed and fixing resists would help too.


Problem with WE's is that they can hit when dead and hit so fast that server cant keep up.They get rooted and are still hitting melee even when youre miles away. They are atm a pita but then lots of classes are in their own way.

And for everyone getting hit while out range (never heard of this tbh) there is someone else not being hit by me when they are perfectly in range on my screen. I don't want anyone nerfed.

The difference between me and you though is that as a WE jumping the enemy back line, it generally means I die because I am out out of healers range. I accept this is the danger of playing my class. You however have healers left right and centre keeping you up so your backlash damage is kind of irrelevant. And you get all that healing and damage in the safety of your group.

 

[Legean]

Maybe they should just introduce Purge again and let every class have access to it. Maybe say 10 renown skill points, with a suitible recast timer and have it purge everything, including benifical buffs on a timer such as HoTs, so you are reset to a blank canvas. Leave persistant buffs and potions active though so as not to undermine their value. This way people will complain less about BW DoTs and people have more chance against a WE as they can purge the opening move or the stun/disarm and the BW DoTs.