BWTFCL is european.. or so we thought

[old.[VIT]Augustus]

We were invited to this league some weeks ago, it was labelled as a European league.

Lately our UK-based opponents seem to have neglected to read the rules as they state all matches must be played on only BWTFCL servers.

We have now grown pretty much tired of these UK clans. We don't know what behaviour is acceptable in the UK TFC scene, but the European one is pretty much laid back and friendly with teams fakelagging their LPB up to minimum of 100 if ping difference is great.

Should we continue in a league that thinks it's British?

We are yet to decide.

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Augustus
VIT

 

[vuz]

UK Clans are generally OK with this, but as there are so many UK clans they often don't have to play abroad. This league does it best to be European, you'll be hard pushed to find one which has clans from more countries on such a scale.
I think the problem is not the above though, the problem is down to the fact that (unfortunately) your server is terrible for us in the UK, doing well to get under 350 pings....
There will be more to come from this matter as we try to make improvements, but although it is not a rule it won't be put down if a clan asks to play both maps on a BWTFCL server, unless you can find a server outside of the UK which gives you all great pings (/me suggests XS4All, 8th etc).
More to come....

 

[old.[VIT]Zaphod]

We expect that if we play on a opponent server where they have ping advantage we can play on our server where we have ping advantage.
We are ready to fakelag if the diffirence is great. But when half the opponent team have 4 times better ping than us and they don't want to fakelag and then we get to our server and we have better ping but are ready to fakelag and they say no way. What kind of manner is that ?
I don't know ... we are thinking of quiting.

Sorry just a little pissed at the moment.
I guess that the thing is that we have to play on a neutral server wether we like it or not.

Zaphod


[This message has been edited by [VIT]Zaphod (edited 17 July 2000).]

 

[old.[BC]Afx]

Ok lets fill the people in shall we?
#1 We played the first map Fortsake(catch up map)..On the BWTFCL server,BC(who until a few weeks ago were almost totally modemers) pinged 120 average..[VIT] pinged 200/250 average,Of course we had an advantage but hardly one id call insurmountable,Particulalry not as BC have played many clans with a large ping disadvantadge i.e DW and D-Walk without running off and bitching about it.
#2 Because we played the first map on an official BW server [VIT] thought it apt that map 2 should be played on there home server,Where [BC] pinged on average 350-400,WIth enormous ploss and [VIT] were pingin sub 50....Which one of these sounds fairer? i agree neither is an ideal situation but i certainly think the BW server offered a much more balanced game.
Now VIT see fit to turn this into a "european" issue,Which it isnt... weve played XL on a bw server and had an excellent game(albeit one map on the lame badlands) I hardly think that BC should even have to consider playing on Vits inferior server just because they suffer from crapping routing to british servers.
Bah i cant be bothered typing anymore i just think people deserved the full story.

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[BC]Afx

BODYCOUNT

 

[old.[BC]Afx]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I guess that the thing is that we have to play on a neutral server wether we like it or not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The BWTFCL is hardly [BC]s "home" server either( fair enuff thats a little pedantic with us being a British clan) But what im tryin to say is,IF we'd insisted on one map being played on OUR private server then i could understand you wanting one played on your own server..But we didnt.
Oh and BTW [BC] arent an entirely UK based clan either.


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[BC]Afx

BODYCOUNT

 

[old.[BC]Afx]

I cant stop posting tonight
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We have now grown pretty much tired of these UK clans. We don't know what behaviour is acceptable in the UK TFC scene<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Generalise a bit more why dont you....Yes [BC] are the worlds most evil clan....Were so fookin evil we even waited for 30 minutes for VITs 8th man to turn up then dropped to 7 so we could start the game with even teams.
Maybe we shouldnt have soddin bothered

 

[old.[BC]eat]

Hmmmmmm who is being unreasonable?
Unlike a lot of clans BC arent all broadband - on the VIT server we would have had 5 56k players and 3 ISDN players. VIT on the otherhand are all ADSL/Cable or better. When VIT joined this league surely they must have realised that they would have had to play on servers where they havent got a ping advantage.
BC have been around for a year now and have only just started getting broadband players - the majority of the team have always been modem players. But we have lived with this fact and got better as players - we drew with DW when we were all 56k players and all but 1 of DW were broadband. If VIT cant cope playing in clan games where they dont have a ping advantage maybe they should stop moaning and adapt to playing with a higher ping. YES its harder YES its annoying getting killed but a LPB and YES its more rewarding when you beat another clan with pure skill and not just because you can afford Cable.

 

[old.[BC]eat]

A football analogy...
UEFA cup semi final Leeds v Locomotiv Moscow 2 legged game......

1st leg in Leeds
Leeds pospone the game for 30 minutes because Moscows freight plane is late due to overloading of chickens. In the end david batty rides to the airport and picks the last moscow player on his scooter.
1st game is hampered by slight dizzle during the match making the game "unplayable" and "totally unfair".

2nd leg in Moscow
The pitch is under 3 feet of acidified snow but this is no surprise and this is the usual weather coditions. Moscow INSIST the game is to be played with a white football.

Sepp Blatter says this is totally reasonable and mumbles something about "the problem will not be to fill the stadia but to klum klum kladia..."


(PS no offence meant by this joke post and i dont care if you dont get the jokes - you should watch fantasy football league)

 

[old.Hat0]

Its very hard to provide a definitive ruling on this issue. Everyone wants 0 pings na dp/l, but it just isn't possible. Trying to fakelag level pings for foreign team seems a nice idea, but what about inequalities between home teams? We [SLH] played [MA], of which 7 out of 8 had pings below 80 (it's damn scary in prematch I can tell you, when you know you're facing a def solly with a ping of 30ish). We're almost entirely 56kers, but we just played the game in the best manner we could. We had no cause for complaint because this is the Barrysworld league and it was a Barrysworld server. IMHO clans that are unable to play on BW servers should not be in the league. This includes wireplay only peeps and foreign clans that insist on having pings below 50. I mean no offence to the foreign clans by this statement, and meeting some clans such as [TNT] during the course of the competition has been great. But so far every foreign clan we have played has had the ping advantage over us, so how about fakelaging to the advantage of the UK 56kers Having said that, my respect is only enhanced for clans such as [BC] that 0wn even though in the majority they play on poor connections.

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I would like it to be known that all facts are either absolute truths or tautological linguistic fallacies, and consequently the above is lies.

 

[old.[RA]Ring Peace]

Half the reason RA joined this league was because all matches were to be played on BW servers, I have been playing on BW servers since TFC came out and they usually rock.

I had no idea that this was going to be a european league, although our best and most friendly matches have been against euro clans, MPK and TFC, without a single complaint about ping or packet loss.

Surely VIT and other euro clans saw in the rules that the matches were on BW servers, I am not getting at VIT just wondering.

 

[old.[BC]eat]

Bah i cant be bothered typing anymore i just think people deserved the full story

WELL STFU THEN BRUMMY TWAT - DONT JUST DO ANOTHER 2 POSTS

 

[old.Alexia]

Erm... I personnally think that if VIT has been invited and as the rule is stating the game can be played either in UK on Barry's server or on any European server it is the responsibility to clans challenged by VIT to find a suitable server. For both teams.

XL joined this league for fun and enjoyable games with clans we've never played before... BW is the best to us from France and Belgium.

When we played VIT their average ping was 100+ more than ours on barry's server. We didn't fakelag because the other map was to be played on their server.

But when we went there our usual LPB were 800+ (whereas I was 400 so I laughed a lot after them ;p but errr not the subject here but still I was not the HPB yeeeepeeeee and most of us were having a lot of pl. They started to fakelag... which we really appreciated but it was still unplayable for us.

We spoke to the strong Augustus (is that right Round ? ) and the nice Zaphod (Round do you agree ? ) and decided to replay the war instead of agree on this unfair draw game.

What I learnt during the discussion we had is that they were suffering from a lot of pl on barry server...

Tbh we really enjoyed the first map it was really disputed, a nice game ! But not for them...

The point I am trying to make is that we all know VIT have routing problem to UK so as the rules are stating we can play on other European server... try to find one !

Errr the purpose of it is to enjoy the game... no ? And if we win after an unfair game, such as a loose or a draw, it just doesn't have any taste... no point playing really.


Al http://extralife.fr.st

 

[old.[VIT]Diogenes]

errrrrrrrr
ok MHO then.

[BC] were not in any way unfair. They even came to #VIT channel on irc to tell us we were undermanned - how many clans would do that?

It wouldn´t have been fair for them to play with a ping around 400.
But it wouldn´t have been fair either for us to play both maps with +100 ping disadvantage would it?

Iceland is a bit out of the way I know, but we have usually been able to find some servers where both teams ping equally. 8th Legion have been very friendly and on their servers Glottis and Meche we have had some serious fun, and also at Dia, the DONut's server.

However things changed when the biggest ISP in iceland cancelled it's link to europe, a long story wich I won´t bother u with.

But the only locical solution to this, is to find a neutral server, where both teams ping equally. Most likely when we are fighting british clans, that would be somewhere in scandinavia.

This is a job for the war-arrangers isn´t it and should be done before the match not during.

OK, this was MHO, VIT has not yet given any formal statement about this matter

Diogenes

 

[old.Alexia]

Just in case it wouldn't be clear... I was not refering at BC when talking about unfair games... we had a fabulous one though

Was just speaking generally


Al

 

[old.Ravenger]

In what I´ve heard from the Admins here they actually accept play on other servers if they are not in UK!

According to the rules BarrysWorld servers are the only UK server eligable.

Servers in other countries are still ok

 

[old.Chefamen]

I wouldnt take that statement for truth mate.

We where told that coz our match wasnt played on a BW server it wasnt a legal match even though we where told we could use the server by a BW admin, not good enough apparently due to him being on the oppossing clan we where about to play.

Do you admins realise that if you play a match you lose your admin statis for the time you are playing!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[old.Round[DONut]]

It's always hard to find servers which is good for both teams, some players has cable and some have 56K modems.

But you must always be allowed to play a map on a "home server"

excepttions are:

one team have pl and high pings on the server. Then either fakelag or find a neutral server for both half. And BW server are not a neutral server when one team has an average of 50 on it and the other 200.

and btw. BWTFCL is sponsored by Barrysworld
www.barrysworld.com

please not the .com adress. Com is international in my oppinion.

 

[vuz]

An unfortunate situation, there is little that can be done about lag, we can't make a rule saying you must fakelag because clans that pay for ADSL won't enjoy not being able to use it.
We do all we can but sometimes it just doesn't work out, and we can only say use BWTFCL servers as they are the ones we provide, unless both clans are happy to find a neutral one.
Also I wasn't best pleased when VIT come complaining to me about their 180 pings, but that is purely (100%) because 180 ping is the best I ever got (on BWTFCL server as it happened) and was dead chuffed......
Bring on broadband UK style........bleh

 

[vuz]

This is the Match Report VIT did about our Clanbase war ([tP] vs [VIT]):

Good game.
2fort on ISNET B Server
10-0
We had some troubles getting their flag but got it on the move after some minutes and capped shortly after that. We got their flag on the move after that but never made another cap since tP moved their whole team on D when that happened. In the last minutes we had our whole team on O unless one but didn't manage another cap. They had a few flag touches but nothing to serious.

Well on BWTFCL #4 Server
10-10
Even here on their server we had better ping advantage.
We got a cap in the middle of the match and so did tP shortly after. Both teams got the flag on the move a few times. In the end we got their flag out of their base and had some massive fighting around the flag. We managed to get the flag closer and closer to our base and we where just about to cap when the map ended. Ouch
Very good game tP. Looking forward to meeting you guys again.
Check out http://vit.tf
[VIT]Zaphod


This kinda says it all, they had ping advantage over us (all UKers) on BWTFCL server and a huge advantage on their server (y we were so defensive (altho we weren't lame enuf to put more than 5 def ....)).
Anyway, just a point.....

 

[old.[VIT]Augustus]

What 180 ping?

I never went below 210 and I'm a LPB, while 5 of them were 50 or less.

Also when we were invited to this league the rules said (if they have suddenly changed I haven't read the NEW rules..) that no UK servers except BW could be used, however you could use what foreign server you liked.

If this is no longer the case, I believe that VIT can only reach the decision of leaving the league. We would prefer to play our games on 8th Legions or DONuts servers where our pings aren't 200+, BUT if that is no longer acceptable to the admins of this league then we can't play.

We entered this league on the basis that we could use other servers than BW. Suddenly deciding that it isn't allowed puts us at a disadvantage we hadn't expected. Changing rules in mid-season is not how you run a league.

Also the Admins of this league seem to be Admins when it suits them, we have seen previous threads where admins are slated, I'm kinda getting the idea why now.

And as for the BC comments, I make no comment, they judge themselves.

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Augustus
VIT

 

[old.Ravenger]

All I can say is that we cannot be held responsible for other peoples connections. I have a 1.1Mbit connection to the internet via experimental SDSL and I am used to playing on icelandic servers with 20 in ping. For those of you that haven´t tried going from brilliant ping to poor ping, well it´s horrible. Totally wrecks one playing style, all of a sudden you need to change almost everything about your style and that may take 30 minutes, but that is one map.

Anyway. I used to play on a 56k modem and it sucks. Why people actually want to play on such connections is beyond me as I lost all interest for the game playing at that speed.

As for server issues. I´m one of those that is happy if everyone is happy. I don´t want the impossible, that is playing on a server GOOD for everyone. I just want to find an acceptable server for everyone. If everyone has 200 in ping that is an acceptable server. If one team has 5 below 50 and 3 above 300 that is not acceptable if the enemy teams all has 200 and average ping is close. The issues are many and trying to find an acceptable solution for all situations is almost impossible. But at least we try.

[VIT] Ravenger

 

[old.Ravenger]

Excerpt from BWTFCL Rules

BWTFCL Servers, provided by BarrysWorld are the only UK servers that may be used, European Servers may also be used.

 

[Atomic Rammer]

A&I are a mainly hpb clan. If we faced a purely lpb clan then I dont think any of us would even consider for a second asking them to fakelag. Its just tough on us that they have better connects. I dont like seeing talk of evening out pings, you play on the connects you've got - and no excuses.

When the league was announced I saw many new faces on the barrysworld public servers checking them out for the league seeing if they worked ok on their connections.

The way I see it is that you use the barrysworld servers for matches, but if say 2 french clans had a match then its crazy playing on bw uk server, so therefore use a european (french) server as the rules state agreed by both.

If any 1 clan does not want to use a european server then use the bw servers. Everyone knew how their connects performed on bw before signing up to the league. If you cant handle playing on them against l(ower)pb's then you shouldn't have signed up for the league.

Having the ability to use a european server is not a right, but it is the right of either clan to say we want to use the bw servers.
If you play a european clan that also want to use a european server then that is a bonus, but you should expect that at worst you will have to play every match on the bw servers.

 

[old.Hat0]

I was joking abot the fakelag (hence the ), I'm gonna 0wn some hpb ass when I finally sort my move and get cable in. I just agree with Sydeereal that calns have the right to play on bwtfcl servers exclusively.

 

[old.[VIT]Zaphod]

Well I guess the only choice is:
When playing against UK clans we play their home game on BWTFCL Server and our home game on 8th legion Meche or another server.
I agree that playing 300+ is not acceptable and if that is what you get we will just have to find a better server. But if you are 56K modem users you should be used to playing with high ping.

I ping very fine to the US and fine to Germany (at least IQ) around 100.
I think one must consider how much you ping is increasing from what you are used to and to what you are playing with. Ex. I am used to playing with 70-100 in ping so when I play with 230 in ping that is high for me

Hope this is ok with you guys ...

Cya on the battlefield.

 

[old.[tP]Merkz]

The point were al trying to make VIT is on your server we lag and get lots of packet loss where as u get sub 50 pings.

But on barrysworld server we have normal playble pings and so do u.

On your server we lag and it inhibits our gameplay.U get good pings.

On our server it normal.You get playable pings with no ploss or lag


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[tP]Merkz
www.theprophecy.co.uk

 

[old.[VIT]Zaphod]

Howdy there Merkz
Well we do get packetloss on BWTFCL and I have got 220 in ping and it is 120+ from what I am used to but OK I´ll play more on BWTFCL public servers and see how that is.

 

[old.[VIT]Diogenes]

ok merkz, where the hell do u get your info from? Did u even read what we were saying.

"But on barrysworld server we have normal playble pings and so do u."
--&gt;Might be normal for u modem users, but it sure isn´t normal for us. We also were +100.
It´s not only about ping though, It's about what ping u are used to. I was getting pretty good playing on a 56k modem, but it took a long time getting used to.


"On your server we lag and it inhibits our gameplay.U get good pings."
--&gt;yes, thats why we are talking about scandinavian servers where we would ping equally!

On our server it normal.You get playable pings with no ploss or lag
--&gt; No ploss or lag......routing through usa to get to britain, why in gods name do u say this?

I find some of the opinions posted here plain funny. Maybe we should make a new league, where ppl could only play at icelandic servers "if one clan wants to" (what kind of a rule is that?) Bleh!

We have made up being from iceland, buy spending a lot of money on bigger connections, but it doesn´t matter coz some clans have players using 33.6k modems and we are responcible for their pings......With a 33k modem what the hell do ppl expect?

And finally, do u really think that making things in favour if british clans is in any way fair? I have nothing against the british, don´t get me wrong, but this abuses my sense of justice.

 

[Atomic Rammer]

Look, if barrysworld had servers in other countries you would have a point - why dont you uk clans play us on the bw scandanavian server or whatever. But right now I dont think you have a point at all.

Its billed as a european league coz all are welcome, it might be billed as a world league but for ppl from autralia etc. not standing a chance.
European clans get good pings on bw servers so theres no reason why they shouldn't join in the fun.

The rules aren't like they are to be biassed towards uk ppl its just that using the bw servers is the most sensible way of doing the bw league.

 

[Atomic Rammer]

I would try asking rather than demanding that other clans play on a different server, you might get what you want. But bear in mind that finding a server that suits another clan could be problematic. 8 players have to check their connects on any proposed alternate server. Are you prepared to arrange all your match venues well in advance etc? Matches can turn into a shambles this way with ppl finding they cant play on the server and then theres even more trouble. Rule 9 is partly so that this is avoided by saying use our servers where we have rcon etc that everyone has checked out.

They've signed up to the league knowing that they have good working connects to the league match servers. If they insist on the BW servers it is also because they know all their clan members approve of using the servers with their connects.

If you want to stay in the league thats great, ask other clans for a different venue. I'm sure some will be happy to do so. But if they dont, dont assume they are just trying to get an advantage on you.

If you choose to leave don't do so thinking that you have been cheated by the league, the admins, or the other clans. You haven't.