Why...those...mudder...fuggin...

[Cap'n Sissyfoo]

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSTARDS!!!

Hello,

More than a year after its launch, Dark Age of Camelot is going through a new evaluation of its subscription prices, while remaining the cheapest 2nd generation MMORPG on the market (from 9.16 ? per month).
This change of tariffs will take effect at the 5th of May 2003 onwards, and will affect the subscriptions signed after this date.
The subscriptions still valid before the revaluation will not be affected until they are renewed, after the 5th of May 2003 onwards.

>From this date the new subscription tariffs will be :

1 month subscription : 8£ or 12?
3 months subscription : 22£ or 32? (less than 11 ? per month)
6 months subscription : 41£ or 60? (10? per month)

On this occasion we have decided to create a new type of subscription, 12 months for 75£ or 110? (9.16? per month).

Sincerely yours,

The DAoC Europe Team.

BASTARDS!!
BASTARDS!!
BASTARDS!!
BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSTARDS!!

~sticks two fingers up at capitalism~

 

[old.Ramas]

Is a '?' a euro?

Thankfully my renewal is in April

PS.

2nd generation MMORPG

rofl.

 

[old.ST200]

whats funny about the 2nd generation bit?

 

[Tilda]

hahaha, i renewed on wednesday

 

[Flimgoblin]

1st generation = text-based-MUDs

2nd generation = 3d

3rd generation = VR?

or is it 1st gen = UO?

enlighten me

 

[old.Ramas]

imho

MUDs = not massively multiplayer

1st generation = static content; heavily reliant on class restrictions for balance; mostly based on static spawn camping rather than feeling at all like an rpg. Character advancement based on time sinks and massively multiplayer aspect used for the most part to provide someone to talk to. Frankly I see nothing in EQ, DAOC, AO, AC1or2, that takes us beyond this.

2nd generation = what SWG/SB/EVE are all trying to be and will be defined when someone doesn't kop out at the last minute and produce another static class/level game (which SWG seems to increasingly be). Features might include genuinely skill (as opposed to class) based, players having impact on game world, player built and controlled cities/shops/bases, an involving non-combat set of game roles (crafting as something other than a green-bar-watching time sink for instance), etc etc.

Putting the same game on a 3d interface was never, imho, worth declaring games to be genuinely new and exciting.

You could argue that UO is only 2nd gen MMORPG ever, and that isn't even really 3d.

But I do appreciate that you could cut this cake any number of different ways if you chose to.

 

[katt!]

Originally posted by old.Ramas
imho

MUDs = not massively multiplayer

1st generation = static content; heavily reliant on class restrictions for balance; mostly based on static spawn camping rather than feeling at all like an rpg. Character advancement based on time sinks and massively multiplayer aspect used for the most part to provide someone to talk to. Frankly I see nothing in EQ, DAOC, AO, AC1or2, that takes us beyond this.

2nd generation = what SWG/SB/EVE are all trying to be and will be defined when someone doesn't kop out at the last minute and produce another static class/level game (which SWG seems to increasingly be). Features might include genuinely skill (as opposed to class) based, players having impact on game world, player built and controlled cities/shops/bases, an involving non-combat set of game roles (crafting as something other than a green-bar-watching time sink for instance), etc etc.

Putting the same game on a 3d interface was never, imho, worth declaring games to be genuinely new and exciting.

You could argue that UO is only 2nd gen MMORPG ever, and that isn't even really 3d.

But I do appreciate that you could cut this cake any number of different ways if you chose to.

no.

 

[old.Ramas]

A truly forensic analysis katt.

 

[old.LandShark]

in other words, buy 6month sub before the 5th of May. Hell, that probably was the intention of this in the first place.

 

[Karlo]

Wonder if we get anything outta paying more or if they just get increased profits?

 

[katt!]

Originally posted by old.Ramas
A truly forensic analysis katt.

it contained about as much correct facts as your post.

 

[swords]

Isnt EVE online sceduled for release on the 6th of May...

coincidence??? i think not!

 

[old.Ramas]

it contained about as much correct facts as your post.

Ah,

So you would have access to information from the 'official government ministry of defining generations of computer games'?

Like I said, imho, nothing in any MMORPG I've seen has ever justified the title 'second generation'. You'd need to move the genre forward to be worthy of that.

 

[katt!]

so no fps has ever moved forward? the concept is still the same - its just a new gfx engine.

 

[old.Ramas]

Thief moved fpses forward by showing that stealth can work.

UT and quake3 showed it was possible to run a viable game solely online.

Team fortress moved fpses forward by showing that teams can work.

Rainbow 6 moved fpses forward by doing both the above and showing that dieing in one hit can be fun. Counterstrike showed that one hit deaths can be done right online.

The central point of an fps in the way you shoot people. Many fps authors have found interesting and new ways to shoot people.

The central point of an rpg is the way you develop a character and have that character work with others. People are having a real difficulty finding new ways to do this.

Putting an rpg online moved the genre on with MUDs.

Putting in a massively multiplayer context did the same, turning the server population into a community, rather than a clique.

But while character development remains one-dimensional and time-sink based, and no-one can move past the tank/caster/healer mechanic (even in sci-fi games!). I don't really see what we have in DAOC, or any other game that sets it apart.

Same concept, new content.

Not to say that overall DAoC hasn't produced interesting content and a fun game.

But it's not really revolutionary stuff now is it.

I'm not sure how you think daoc is significantly different from a "1st gen MMORPG".

The 3d graphics are very pretty but they don't actually affect gameplay.

 

[katt!]

Team fortress moved fpses forward by showing that teams can work.

guilds/realms/factions etc.

Putting in a massively multiplayer context did the same, turning the server population into a community, rather than a clique.

this is your definition of an mmog, and still you do not think a MUD is an MMOG?

The central point of an rpg is the way you develop a character and have that character work with others. People are having a real difficulty finding new ways to do this.

But while character development remains one-dimensional and time-sink based,

you want character development without it taking time (timesinks)?

Rainbow 6 moved fpses forward by doing both the above and showing that dieing in one hit can be fun. Counterstrike showed that one hit deaths can be done right online.

no, counter-strike showed that if you make a game insanely easy to play you can get an enormous playerbase.

Putting an rpg online moved the genre on with MUDs.

...

The central point of an fps in the way you shoot people. Many fps authors have found interesting and new ways to shoot people.

Same concept, new content.

run around and kill people in different ways, healing-tanking-etc in different ways.

 

[moo_work]

like buy 6 months before 5th may mmk

 

[old.Ramas]

guilds/realms/factions etc.

RvR was a brave attempt - but hasn't really acheived what was hoped, imho. Again, not to say it isn't fun, but I don't personlly feel it's all that different or new.

Guilds and factions have been in pretty much every MMORPG ever.

this is your definition of an mmog, and still you do not think a MUD is an MMOG?

No, most people don't consider MUDs to be 'massively' multiplayer - I'd agree it's a debatable point. But for me the community of a MUD is to small for the game to feel like a MMORPG.

If you want to call MUDs generation 1, and MMORPGs generation 2, then I guess you could look at it that way. But personally I've always looked upon them as totally different things.

NWN for instance, is a MUD package, but it certainly is not a MMORPG.

you want character development without it taking time (timesinks)?

No, I want character development not to be one dimensional and linear, and I want character development not to involve sitting on my ass killing the same mob over and over.

Moving from spot a to spot b to kill a different mob that acts in exactly the same way but has a different skin (or sometimes not even that) doesn't count btw.

Skill, rather than class/level based development would be good start.

Genuine economic activity would also help.

The SWG team have some great ideas in this area, some of which have been watered down or removed due to being too hard to set up, and some of which remain in place - guess we'll see how many and how effective they are.

Similarly, SB and SWG both have made an effort to include features they claim will allow players to impact the world they operate in, again, we'll have to see how this works out in practice.

run around and kill people in different ways, healing-tanking-etc in different ways.

You kind of make my point for me here

Maybe it's impossible to move genre forward again, who knows, but personally I doubt it.

 

[Ekydus]

This sucks.

Doubt much people will stay for longer.
-Either that, or subscribe for ages...

Although those annoying 14 year old kids with an attitude are bound to stay around, after all, it's coming out of their parents pocket.

Happened to come so soon after Shrouded Isles too...
Typical...

 

[Galiryn]

my sub runs out at 4th of may

 

[g0ldenbone]

Originally posted by old.Ramas
imho

MUDs = not massively multiplayer

1st generation = static content; heavily reliant on class restrictions for balance; mostly based on static spawn camping rather than feeling at all like an rpg. Character advancement based on time sinks and massively multiplayer aspect used for the most part to provide someone to talk to. Frankly I see nothing in EQ, DAOC, AO, AC1or2, that takes us beyond this.

2nd generation = what SWG/SB/EVE are all trying to be and will be defined when someone doesn't kop out at the last minute and produce another static class/level game (which SWG seems to increasingly be). Features might include genuinely skill (as opposed to class) based, players having impact on game world, player built and controlled cities/shops/bases, an involving non-combat set of game roles (crafting as something other than a green-bar-watching time sink for instance), etc etc.

Putting the same game on a 3d interface was never, imho, worth declaring games to be genuinely new and exciting.

You could argue that UO is only 2nd gen MMORPG ever, and that isn't even really 3d.

But I do appreciate that you could cut this cake any number of different ways if you chose to.

Depends on how you look at it. But I agree. DAOC has largely static content, albeit with various frills which hint at the possibilities (Keep ownership, forthcoming housing (LOL) ). In a lot of respects I reckon that it makes a game more accessable to a large audience. A lot of people need measurements in a game to derive satisfaction, whether they be wealth, level, RP's. And with static content its probably far clearer to gauge those achievements.

Personally I hope that a future MMORPG can, like you say, offer next generation gaming, with more dynamic and evolving gameplay.. thats where its at for me

Good post anyway

edit: oops, missed the point of the post entirely Suspicious timing by the goa folks..

 

[katt!]

RvR was a brave attempt - but hasn't really acheived what was hoped, imho. Again, not to say it isn't fun, but I don't personlly feel it's all that different or new.

if you put it that way, almost everything in every mmorpg in existence and development now, has been in muds for many many years.

No, most people don't consider MUDs to be 'massively' multiplayer - I'd agree it's a debatable point. But for me the community of a MUD is to small for the game to feel like a MMORPG.

then what is the limit for massively? some muds have a primetime population close to that of a single realm in daoc (not alb/exc numbers, but a couple of hundred).

If you want to call MUDs generation 1, and MMORPGs generation 2, then I guess you could look at it that way. But personally I've always looked upon them as totally different things.

no, i wouldnt put muds in the same category as graphical mmorpgs, because muds have gone through several "generations" themselves.

No, I want character development not to be one dimensional and linear, and I want character development not to involve sitting on my ass killing the same mob over and over.

you need the char development to "waste" time to avoid throwaway alts etc. im in favor of skill systems as well but wtf is the difference if you have to be fighting the same numbers of mobs as in a level based game, only the skills go up instead of exp.

Moving from spot a to spot b to kill a different mob that acts in exactly the same way but has a different skin (or sometimes not even that) doesn't count btw.

read above.

Genuine economic activity would also help.

daoc economy is pretty solid compared to other mmorpgs.

 

[skile]

Bring "aim" into MMORPG's :O.

 

[katt!]

www.planetside.com seems to have a nice combo of player-skill and character development.. sort of like r6/deus ex(cant remember if that was the game). higher skill = less recoil etc

 

[old.Ramas]

Just to clarify, by 'skill' I mean learning character skills independantly of any class concept.

I don't really mean player skill in the sense of fps skill. I mean allowing people to train their character skills whichever way they want rather than just 'straight up' the class/level system.

It would be a bit like if doac had no classes and so no 'baseline' capabilities, but anyone can train any spec line they like.

And ideally they earn those skills by practicing those skills, rather than by sitting in a group that is killing pygmies.

Of course this would require balance at a skillline level, rather than at a class level, and some kind of upper limit on how much you can learn, in order to prevent the tank-mage problem.

And as a side issue, I personally don't believe things like

higher skill = less recoil etc

...are a good idea, (incidentally, planetside doesn't do this afaik, they use levels as 'certifications' you use to 'open' weapons/armour/vehicles as available for your character to use.)

The problem I've always had with blended player/character skill is that the people it's meant to disadvantage (great players with crappy avatars) will also always be the people that are best at working through bouncy reticles etc. So they are maxing out quickest *and* being the best once they get there.

Not a problem so much in an fps, but in an rpg that's never seemed a good way to set the game up - at least not for me.

 

[katt!]

Originally posted by old.Ramas
Just to clarify, by 'skill' I mean learning character skills independantly of any class concept.

the thing is that it will be just like leveling, just your skills. ofc it will be alot more possibilities with skill-based templates but i rather not bash a training doll for 8hrs to get some sword skill.. compared to that grinding mobs in a group is fun fun fun ;/

sb may have the "solution" with a very fast level advancement and "free" templates.

 

[katt!]

that planetside stuff sounded too good to be true. well, i guess thats what you get for listening to someone who "knows a guy who has a friend in beta".

 

[old.Ramas]

From what I understand neocron works in the way you suggest (though I've never played neocron personally so I may be wrong).