Who Are The real SoldiersThen, Eh?

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ShockingAlberto

Guest
Ok then, this my little say on the whole system of ``support classes and soldiers''. Wherever you go, everyone will point out that the Med/Lieuts are support classes, the Engie is the one with the bomb, and that the Soldiers are there for the fighting. Now there's one problem with this. Soldiers suck for fighting/attacking!

Ok then, let me explain. I shall go through the weapons of the soldier, and by the end, we shall see that this isn't a guy who you wan't to lead the assault.
First of all, there are the 2 sub-machine guns. By most people's standards, these are the main weapons in the game. What sane person would play as a Soldier and choose one though? The only advantage the Soldier has over a Medic is grenades and ammo, and the Leuit can really better him on these points, as can the Engineer with reguards to grenades. The simple fact is, no-one will play Soldier and use a sub-machine gun(i shall point out why later).
Next there is the sten. The fact is, the Lieut has acess to the sten, so anyone who really wanted it would play L(again, i shall explain this later). Besides, the Sten is more of a support gun than an assault weapon, as it overheats stupidly fast, making it rather pish close up.
Now we have the Mauser. Anyone who considers a sniper rifle an assault weapon is obviously losing it, and i'd say not mnay people would consider it an assault weapon. It is indeed a fine gun for defending an objective, and also good for supporting your team as they attack. For this reason, i'm sure we can safely class it as a support/dfensive weapon.
Ok then, we can move onto the panzerfaust(sp). This weapon is bloody marvelous! I have to say, when i'm defending the radar as an allie on that big, long map with the airplane, i use this beauty. Now there's a but here, and it's a biggy. You can only fire it once every 15/20seconds!! The simple fact is, you can't use this gun for fighting. Now lets look at what you can use it for. Defending. This is a prime choice for defenders, as the blast radius can take out whole offence partys. Supporting attacks. Yes, the other main use is for support assaults. Even inside, this gun is useful, as if your team gets held up on some stairs due to clever defenders, the chances are only you can blast them. So i'd say this is a great weapon for attack, but only if you have a team. When using it, you rely on your team to do alot of the fighting, as you have to usee your pistol! There is nothing wrong with this, but i'd say it makes the panzerfaust(sp) more of a support gun than an assault weapon, as you rely on people with SMGs.
Next up is the Venom. Now this is the only real gun special gun that can be used effectively as an assault weapon. It is a frightening gun that kills increadabley fast, and here we get the first problem. If you're n a combat situation, you will often find the enemy next to your own team in terms of line of fire. Shooting is dangerous as you will hit your own team! Unlike SMGs, even hitting an friendly for a fraction of a second is enough to kill them. Ok, so the gun has FF issues, but these can be put asside. There are reasons why i wouldn't class this as a great attacking weapon. Speed. Now if you planned on getting the documents on beach with this, you wouldn't be able to use it! On alot of maps, a successful raid revolves around speed, and being able to take out the enemy whilst moving so you can do what you gotta do before more arive. With the the Venom, you must move with your pistol out to move quickly, this means if you meet an enemy, and you don't think you can outrun him/let your team get him, then you must switch to your Venom, by the time you have and started it spinning, the chances are you'll be dead. So to me, the Venom is a defender's weapon. It's great at quickly killing people, so a clever person could find a spot where he can allways see the enemy before they see him, and pretty much hold up his section of the fort single-handedly.
Finally we have the FlameThrower(FT). Now the FT is even more dangerous than the Venom. it is almost impossable to use it in combat without hitting your team mates, and even harder to use inside without setting yourself on fire! For me it has one use. Defending a corridor such as one from the stairs in beach. This way you can guarentee that you won't kill yourself, as you only have one direction to fire in, and hopefully your team mates will stay behind you, meaning no TKs. The other reason why this gun is poor in conmbat is the speed. Any fool can outwit someone totting a FT. You simply sprint away from him, then turn and frag :)

Ok, so hopefully by now you've realised that the Soldier's unique weapons aren't good for outright attacking/assaulting. Now you could play Soldier and use the SMGs, but why would you. Now i shall show how the ``support classes'' are actually the best attackers/defenders, and at the same time they're also most useful classes for the team.
Now the Lieutenant has the choice of 3 SMGs, Binocs for seeing what's going on ahead, the smoke grenades for hitting the enemy when he gets amongst them, artillery for taking snipers/groups of defenders int he open, and ammo to supply the team. To me, the Lieut is one of the most important classes, every team is allways short of ammo, so a good Lieut is a godsend. He also has the pick of the SMGs, so if anyone preffers the Thompson over the mp40 ect, then they're satisfied.
Then there's the Medic. He dosn't get any spare clips, which is a big negative, and he only gets the one grenade. If however you have a Lieut, this shouldn't be a problem, as ammo should be readily available. Now the main reason why you want a med in your forwards assault party is his Sirinje. Say you manage to take the forward spawn, but everyone with you died doing it, and they've got 40 seconds till they respawn. Now in this situation, the enemy will proberbly take the flag back due to your lack of men. But with a medic, you can revive your entire team, which means you're in a position to carry on the attack. The medi packs are also helpful for keeping an attack going.
Finally there is the Engie. Now the Engie has 8 grenades, a SMG w/one spare clip, and he has the most important thing in the game, dynamite. Wether it's O or D, the Engie is in a good position to do what's needed.

Now here's the blunt truth. For straight out fighting, the only useful weapons are the SMGs, and the 3 guys who use them are the ``support classes''. The unique weapons of the Soldier are nice, and i do enjoy the latter 3, but i would only use them for specialised objectives. Ok, so the Soldier can drop his weapon and pick up another, but if you're going to use your Panzerfaust(sp) once before chucking it, then you might as well have just gone medic. If anyone dissagrees with this, then feel free to speak, but to me, the main attacking force of any team is going to be made up of meds/lieuts/engies.

Ok, this is egtting long, but here's a few ideas of how this could be changed. people won't like this, but here it is: The Soldier should be able to carry a Unique weapon, and a SMG from the start. Yes, this makes him far more devestating than the other c;lasses now, but isn't this how it should be? Surely giving the Soldier a specialised weapon such as a FlamerThrower is only the same as giving the Lieut the ammo/airstrikes/binocs? To me, this will turn how games are played, and rightly so.

Oooohh, 7.5k words, i deserve a collum for this kind of stuff! :D
 
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Chameleon

Guest
Good stuff mate. I'm exhausted reading it :)
I agree, the Medic's (my choice) and the LT's are vital. I usually find myself at the front of the assaults, reviving the soldiers who died around me :) Some soldier weps are nice, but for many, the side effects outway the advantages.
Are soldiers not able to withstand more damage than the support classes? I assumed this was so.

We need more LT's!!! I'm forever using up my one clip near the start and end up having to knife people instead :)
 
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nocte

Guest
Originally posted by Ch@meleon
We need more LT's!!! I'm forever using up my one clip near the start and end up having to knife people instead :)

yeah that actually give out ammo... i have to resort to shooting them to give me ammo :rolleyes:
 
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Embattle

Guest
Originally posted by Ch@meleon
Good stuff mate. I'm exhausted reading it :)
I agree, the Medic's (my choice) and the LT's are vital. I usually find myself at the front of the assaults, reviving the soldiers who died around me :) Some soldier weps are nice, but for many, the side effects outway the advantages.
Are soldiers not able to withstand more damage than the support classes? I assumed this was so.

We need more LT's!!! I'm forever using up my one clip near the start and end up having to knife people instead :)

We had a good one last night where you and me took loads out by sticking together.
 
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old.gust0o

Guest
Well...

... it wanders a little, and I think you've got it slightly wrong in some regards, in thinking of the soldier as the 'grunt' of the game - maybe he would be, if he was simply another player, with a machine gun and a couple of grenades.

But the fact is, he's as specialised a class as any of them - the abilities offered to him by his class-specific weapons assure him of this position - he can pack a lot more firepower than the other classes, and apply it in a wide variety of different situations.

Sure, the weapons all have their characteristics - their plus sides, and downsides - but isn't that the entire point of class balancing?

It would be nice to see a venom that didn't overheat, or a panzerfaust that could be rapid fired, but what would be the point? The game balancing that makes this all so fun would be straight out the window.

The fact is, the panzerfaust is good for clearing out groups of enemies, and rooms, whilst the venom is good for a quick blast of uber heavy firepower, right when you need to push that attack back. Sure, they're not as durable as the smgs, but the soldier isn't meant to be the jack of all trades - he's there for a set role, and should pick his weapon accordingly.

You'll get this a lot in team games - the classes have to work together, and the players as a team. If you're getting shot to pieces during the long reload time of the panzerfaust, then something's going wrong with the way the team works, and it's not simply a drawback of another partially effective weapon...

Right, this is rambling, but I'm just back from a phat pub lunch, so you'll have to excuse me.

The fact is, the soldier is a lot more specialised than you might think, and not simply something to throw into the breach - his weapons allow him more flexibility than the others, and he can do a lot in attack and defence that they simply can't, but if you're going to play the class you need to play as a team...

... but, then, this is a team game, and that's how it is :D
 
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ShockingAlberto

Guest
True, true, but i do have some reasopns why i beleave the soldier should get his unique weapons and a SMG, and i shall write a nice big post in a bit when i have time :)


GMAX: Don't bring your TKing ways into my thread!
``yeah that actually give out ammo... i have to resort to shooting them to give me ammo '' Fuck off you nasty little llama :twak:
 
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Nighty-

Guest
A team of 7 lieutenants and 2 medics would own all
 
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nocte

Guest
Originally posted by ShockingAlberto
GMAX: Don't bring your TKing ways into my thread!
``yeah that actually give out ammo... i have to resort to shooting them to give me ammo '' Fuck off you nasty little llama :twak:

You wanna calm down there dude!!

I never said i was a TK!!

so get your facts straight before you go off on a rant like this.

I do that on FF off servers if you would like to know.

an what gives you the fucking right to call me a little llama u dont even know me.

arsehole :upyours:
 
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Embattle

Guest
Just had a very annoying game on that map with the two gates in the middle. My side, Axis seemed to open the gate to the Allies side which is a big no no as first you want to blow the access hatch. However with it open we ended up getting pinned in our hanger.........I called them a bunch of muffins and left.
 
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throdgrain

Guest
yep thats happened to me too :(
GMAX dont mind nim he needs to get out more :p
 
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ShockingAlberto

Guest
And what happens if they're aiming at someone and miss because they've got bullets in their back humm?

Shooting your own team is a joke, there is 100% no excuse.


You know the allies cna open the/close the gate from the tower? Ok, so they shouldn't get the chance as you can cover it, but that proberbly was what happened.
 
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Embattle

Guest
Oh I lnow that but we had two guys on our side and I asked for them to close it, but they went running through leaving me. I was up on the wall top with low health so couldn't get down to close it :(
 
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old.gust0o

Guest
If I'm played medic, and doing my job well, then I don't see why others players can't do likewise for me - besides, if I wing them trying to get their attention, I can always bound over and heal them again :D

Perhaps you're right, Alberto, and the soldier should get his SMG - but I can see why they didn't allow for it in the first place... it would simply screw the current balancing.
 
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nocte

Guest
Originally posted by gust0o
If I'm played medic, and doing my job well, then I don't see why others players can't do likewise for me - besides, if I wing them trying to get their attention, I can always bound over and heal them again :D

Exactly m8!! this is what i was talking about.

I always play as medic, hense the need for ammo right away.
 
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old.PestilenZ

Guest
be more concise. i got bored reading that half way through.
 
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old.PestilenZ

Guest
no. as i said, i got bored half way through, when i realised most of it was just waffling
 
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ShockingAlberto

Guest
Bah, fuck off spammers, someone delete those last few spam posts please.
 
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bigbb

Guest
I only read that latter half there but i'm inclined to agree with what you said, Alberto. I have no idea whether the nerve dev team are planning to make such alterations of this nature in the future updates, or whether such changes are even possible, but it would be welcome. Imo, as the 'soldier' class stands it's barely an effective asset to a team. Which, as you rightly say it damn well should be. Conventionally, we've grown to expect the soldier (from other games) to be a powerful and essential element of a team but as it stands, they're more useful as human shields in offensive pushes.
 
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old.almighty_monkey

Guest
Was the soldier ment as a attacking class? I rarely play as one but every time I do I instinctly go in defense.

I personally always got the feeling it was blanaced so it was mainly up to the other three classes to attack (Lutenants provide the firepower, medics keep the team going, while the engi's job is...obvious :) ) while the solly stays back with the slightly heavier firepower in defence. More like a HWguy in TFC than an allround grunt like a lot of people seem to try and play it as.



Not that I'm any expert...I always play medic.....
:rolleyes:
 
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ShockingAlberto

Guest
Yes, i would aggree with that, but i would say something needs to be changed, as 2 Meds and an Engie could defend better than 1 Venom guy, 1 Pyro and 1 Rocketman. If they gave the soldier both a specila weapon and an SMG, then the soldiers would be equipped the do roles that other classes cannot, hence making them alot more powerful, but at the same time, not really unbalancing them. Think about it, what differance does it make wether you get killed by a soldier using a SMg than a medic killing you with a SMG? Just because the soldier has a RocketStick on his back, it hardly means you were killed by an unbalanced class.
 
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FuZor

Guest
Don't know what all this is about but I go with the Mauser. I agree its more defence, BUT I tend to progress slowly moving forward, killing some enemies then moving forward somemore. Into defensable positions. So its a bit of both, defence and offense.
 
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old.PestilenZ

Guest
That is a good idea actually, giving soldiers smg's as well
but then it might just make them overpowered ...
 
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ShockingAlberto

Guest
Having started properley on the SP now, i can see some obvious ways the soldier could be made more potent. Give him all the weapons!

The first new weapon i encountered was the snooper. This was great for the stealth level in thebwoopds, allthough i doubt it#'s use for MP, but it would be nice to give people access to it, just for variety's sake(they could make it one hit kill, which would make up for it's lesser range ciompared with the mauser). Next i find the paratrooper rifle! This thing is great, and allthough i didn't get to use it that much on the hanger level, it showed its use. You could argue it's too powerful for MP, as it does lots of damage, as a good ROF, and has a scope, but it has no zoom, and its accuracy over medium-long distances isn't great, so i reckon it wouldn't be too powerful. I'm really surprised they haven't put that into the MP. Finally, on the level i';m on now, with the Tank, you get Akimbo COlts! Unrealistic maybe, but very good. Now to give soldiers 2 pistols instead of one is a good idea, as he isn't significantly more powerful than before, but he has a decent weapon to use when not firing a panzerfaust. The big problem is that the Axis use the Luger, but i don't see why they couldn't give Axis soldiers akimbo Colts instead, allthough the MP Colt is a bit weaker i think, but it would still make a differance

Oh well, i haven't gone any further yet, but i was surprised to find these extra guns, as the manualk says the Soldier gets access to ``all two handed weapons'', which he blatantly doesn't. Btw, WolfSP pwns, it's just a little easy(i'm on hard, yet i haven't had any serious problems. Hell, i did the stealth level only using the Snooper twice, as i didn't realise the rest of the mission wasn't stealthy).
 
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.cage

Guest
Originally posted by Nighty
A team of 7 lieutenants and 2 medics would own all
Agreed, when we play clan games it's mostly lt's and medics, with the obligatory engineers. Soldier is such a pointless class imo :(
 
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.cage

Guest
Originally posted by PestilenZ
That is a good idea actually, giving soldiers smg's as well
but then it might just make them overpowered ...
Alright mate! :)
 

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