War on terror etc

Tilda

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Ok, this threads going to seem a little odd.
Basicly, I posted a few times on a french forum about some daoc related stuff (lets not go there).
And someone sent me a PM today, and tbh I dont know how to respond to it.
(If your the person that sent me this PM, I hope you dont mind me posting it for advice)

A part of french people have a poor idea of english people, most because of England engagement into the Irak war. I was pretty surprised that your government decided to attack Irak with USA, based on stranges prooves about WMD présence in Irak. I had to say that i don't like our président Chirac, but i was proud when he announce he was against this war.

It was a conflict based on a different vision of the situation. I can accept this, because of our cultural difference made our views different ( not better or worse, just different ).

But today french people feel that this war which were based on military reason, has become a war based on religious reasons. They fear and dislike this. France got hard problems
actually, because of their declared neutral position about religion ( from the separation of State powers and Religious powers ). This situation has become worse since UK/USA alliance "seems" to have engage war against islam ( the GW Bush attitude cannot be more explicit ). The two opposing forces ( "good" USA vs "evil" terrorism ), are trying to force France to choose it's side, that France, by its own nature, cannot do.

For us, USA have to take conscience that they have not be designed by "god" to save the world and fight "evil" (terrorism).

This go much more far than the fight against terrorism (which is important ) : it is a crucial conflict which opposing 2 different visions of the world about the manner to solve today's problem.

I'd be happy that you tell me your point of view about this conflict
smile.gif
( it will improve my english skills
biggrin.gif
)

P.S. Your french is approximative, but not that bad ! /cheer
wink.gif
Any idea how I should reply to this?
What are your views on the USA vs Terrorism vs Others thing?

Tilda
 

nath

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Can't really be bothered to get in to this on a large scale, but one thing I will say: I hate the term "War on terror". It's such a bullshit term, this is a war we can never win as there will always be terrorists. In that respect it's like something out of 1984 - a war we never win means the people are always afraid, if the people are always afraid they're likely to be more accepting of a reduction in civil liberties in order to feel more secure and so on and so forth.
 

Aada

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Im hoping Russia keep there promise to ''attack any terroist base anywhere in the world''
 

Tilda

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There was a news program on a thing where they layed out all the pairs of shoes (one for each seviceman killed in Iraq) There were some US interviews, with people saying the stupidest things (imo) Such as "My husband went to Iraq to make the world a safer place, and to help keep the terrorrists out of America, so our children can grow up in peace" To me thats stupid, because all they do by going to war is create more people wit resentment against the USA and thus are more likley to support terrorrist action against the USA. The prospect of keeping terrorrsists out of the US, seems rediculous to say the least.

I'm unsure as to what I think for the US vs Islam thing atm :S

Tilda
 

GekuL

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There's only one thing worse than a frenchman, and that's a frenchman who doesn't know what he's talking about. :D Still, they're media might be to blame.
Anyway, he's asking for your point of view isn't he? :)
 

Tilda

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The problem Is I dont really know what I think. I have no problem with islamic people, and I think for the US to villify(sp?) "all" islams as terrorrists is very wrong. However, the fact that a large majoriy of terrorrists inhabit generally islamic countries makes it hard to diffentiate between the two.
This leaves french stuck between the USA alliance on one side, and its islamic allies/friends on the other.

Tilda
 

Tom

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Ask him what he thinks about France testing nuclear devices in the sea.
 

TdC

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Tilda me hearty (sorry heehee),

without going in to the "wor on terrer" thing...

the person responding to your post (whatever that may be btw) wants to know what you, as in you personally, think. this pleases me, in as much as the person wants to know your feelings on the subject at hand in order to gain a better understanding of your post and your views in general. this, imo, means that the person has the ability to reason properly and wants to apply their intellect against your opinion. a good thing.
the person has, without a doubt, placed considerable effort into answering by attempting to translate their thoughts to english, and doing a damn fine job tbh. I've seen (far) worse use of the language by native speakers heh. well worth your time and due attention imo. you want to do this well, otherwise you'd not have asked us what we think. well done.
the person wants to use your conversation to not only gain insight into your views on the subject at hand, but also to benefit themselves by utilising the exchange as a method to further their knowledge of the english language. I appluade this action.

well done both of you! (yes, I'm a bit drunk heh :))
 

Wij

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I can't be the only one who thinks it weird that the same people who insist that Bush is waging a war against Islam is also completely bezzie mates with the Bin Laden family. I mean do you people ever try to analyse your own beliefs for self-consistency or just stick to trying to tell everyone else how misguided they are ?
 

Turamber

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I am very much in agreement with Nath's post, described the issue succintly and eloquently if I may say so.

Spending a bit of time on the VN Boards and talking to American friends on the net and on the telephone there is indeed a feeling that if you are not 'with' Bush and his policies then you are 'against' America. I do understand where the French are coming from - they strive to keep politics and religion seperate, which is laudable. They have come in for some grief for this, not just from the USA, but from Muslims who believe their rights have been contravened by their girls not being allowed to wear Islamic head gear in school. It's interesting, however, that they are not the only world government to make that ruling -- Turkey (where the vast majority of the population are Muslim) also has the same law!

I don't think any right minded person would agree with Bin Laden's campaign of terror, but it's ironic that only on September 11th did American's start to feel strongly about terrorism as a nation. Prior to that they were one of the main source of funds for the terrorist movements in Northern Ireland.
 

Alliandre

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Personally I have to agree with what the French person said in their PM to you, though I might have phrased it slightly differently.

If you're not to sure on your views about all this, you should reply to him/her saying so and stating the reasons why. I don't think you should have to make a decision to discuss it with them :)
 

FuzzyLogic

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I'd just say "Where did that come from, I came here to talk about daoc, not world policy" tbh.
 

Paradroid

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Tilda said:
What are your views on the USA vs Terrorism vs Others thing?

Tilda

The USAs War on Terror could work if it was a social-political war that they waged - using diplomacy to overcome differences etc. But an actual military campaign only causes more terrorism. The US administaration (and the US government) aren't niave or stupid - yet they decided to do it anyway. Why? I think it's because life is cheap, and they're commited to their larger goals (power & power by proxy).

Interesting (summary) report from Rand (2/3 pages).
 

TdC

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heh. I'm tempted to post there. it's a good thing when you hate everyone equally you know. equality rules!!
 

maxi

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Wij said:
I can't be the only one who thinks it weird that the same people who insist that Bush is waging a war against Islam is also completely bezzie mates with the Bin Laden family. I mean do you people ever try to analyse your own beliefs for self-consistency or just stick to trying to tell everyone else how misguided they are ?


Innacurate.

I believe Bush and and his Administration will do anything and get into bed with anyone who can further their agenda. An agenda which is based around keeping him and is associates rich and powerful for generations to come as well as the little thing about The Second Coming Of Christ, which Bush totally fucking digs.

has anyone here read about 'The Family' ?

I guess the dude whos handle starts with Paradriod must've. Ill find a few links later.
 
G

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Aada said:
Im hoping Russia keep there promise to ''attack any terroist base anywhere in the world''


so thats guantanmo bay then, as surely thats the american terrorists (under bush's government anyway)

Go Russia
 

Paradroid

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maxi said:
has anyone here read about 'The Family' ?

I guess the dude whos handle starts with Paradriod must've.


Starts and finishes with that, my fellow Freddy!


I haven't read it yet, but I've a good idea what it covers.

Here's a nice wee summary of The Family's "values".

And here's a wee list of "incidents" they've been involved in...quite a leap from British political life, eh? Can you imagine Blair (or any other UK Prime Minister) surviving the resulting media firestorm and the criminal courts? - even with Cherie being a Lawyer!

:m00:
 

Wij

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maxi said:
Innacurate.

I believe Bush and and his Administration will do anything and get into bed with anyone who can further their agenda. An agenda which is based around keeping him and is associates rich and powerful for generations to come as well as the little thing about The Second Coming Of Christ, which Bush totally fucking digs.

has anyone here read about 'The Family' ?

I guess the dude whos handle starts with Paradriod must've. Ill find a few links later.

How was that relevant to my point ?
 

maxi

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Wij said:
How was that relevant to my point ?

Well you're saying people should analyze their own views, but the example you give is innacurate. I deleted the bit that said that, and then forgot to remove your qoute.

I don't know anyone with a clue who thinks Bush' relation with the Bin laden family was anything other than a business relationship for the both of them, and the 'war on islam' isn't correct either, it's more about Christianity prevailing over EVERY other religion...Armageddon etc.

If Bush can use ANYONE to aid his campaign he will, which is why the relations with the Bin Laden Family make sense. And why I mentioned theFamily, because they're the best example...they believe in being the army of christ, but will do business with the dodgiest bastards on earth if it helps their quest.


Bush has had relations with the Bin Laden family, and he has accepted gifts from them, and I think even had some of them stay at his Ranch. Although I'll have to check that out to be totally sure. I'm also pretty sure he had members of the Bin Laden family very quickly transported out of American after 9/11 (within hours/days, without questioning)
 

Wij

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maxi said:
Well you're saying people should analyze their own views, but the example you give is innacurate. I deleted the bit that said that, and then forgot to remove your qoute.

I don't know anyone with a clue who thinks Bush' relation with the Bin laden family is anything other than a business relationship for the both of them, and the 'war on islam' isn't correct either, it's more about Christianity prevailing over EVERY other religion...Armageddon etc.

If Bush can use ANYONE to aid his campaign he will, which is why the relations with the Bin Laden Family make sense. And why I mentioned theFamily, because they're the best example...they believe in being the army of christ, but will do business with the dodgiest bastards on earth if it helps their quest.

And you think Wahabists would chum up to such people ?
 

Gengi

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Wasn't 'The Family' Charlie Mansons mob ? and there thing was the destruction of white society by a revolution among the black populace and a resulatant power void to be filled by 'the Family' or am I mixing up my historical ideologies ?

later
 

maxi

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Wij said:
And you think Wahabists would chum up to such people ?

Who exactly do you mean? Bin Ladens or Associates of Osama or Al Queda?

I have no hard facts to offer from that side, other than my edited post ^^. If you have a look at the family stuff, it kinda shows what fundamentalists have done in order to progress, gain power, etc...I think it all boils down to The Greater Good...which is something a lot of people with power believe in.

http://www.harpers.org/JesusPlusNothing.html?pg=1
 

Uncle Sick

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Tilda said:
The problem Is I dont really know what I think. I have no problem with islamic people, and I think for the US to villify(sp?) "all" islams as terrorrists is very wrong. However, the fact that a large majoriy of terrorrists inhabit generally islamic countries makes it hard to diffentiate between the two.
This leaves french stuck between the USA alliance on one side, and its islamic allies/friends on the other.

Tilda

The US government does. Not the people. Or - the ones not believing government propaganda do not.

There were several articles in USA Today and the local Sun Journal about Muslims, their beliefs, culture and why terrorism and killing unarmed people is against their beliefs.
Lewiston/Auburn here is filled with to the brim with (muslim) Somali refugees.
The KKK tried to set up a big rally against them and were swarted by local counter demonstrators.
They are allowed to practice their religion, build a mosque and a muslim cemetary.

Lets not stereotype once again, please.
 

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