To Healers and those who is exping.

[Spix]

Lastnight I had a dream.

I was sitting on the dragontime hill at Malmo Lair alone with my level 43 shadowblade (I dont have one but anyway)
when a Infiltrator from the land far away, Albion sneaked up on me and sat down to have a little chat.
He asked me why I sit here all alone when all the other mids was fighting down there.
I said, - Im not welcome in the groups there since I deal out to much damage and get aggro and cant take more then a few hits from those drakulvs.
- Realy? why dont they just taunt it off you after you critstrike?
- No tank can deal out that much damage in one hit so my health goes down faster than healers can heal and therefor to much mana loss for one person, im not welcome
and it has been like this since level 10, same for hunters.
- Wait, you said there are healers in the group? Dont they know if they cast Amnesia the hatelist is cleared from a monster so its very easy for a tank to take the aggro
off people no matter how much aggro you had before amnesia. We use it all the time in Albion, only problem is that there is a lack off sorcerers.
- Yeah well, suppose people dont know how it works and dont care about that spell.
- Sad, people should realy get to know their classes better, I belive they learn the amnesia spell at level 4 in pacification line. Hope you get a group sometime good bye.


End of the dream, belive me this was realy part of a dream I had this night.. I need help



So, how is it with the healers in midgard? Do they actualy know they have the lvl 4 ( pac) amnesia spell and the lvl 14, 24, 34 and 44 AE amnesia and what it does?
If not I can explain it. If someone who is not supposed to have aggro, example: Runemasters, Spiritmasters, Hunters, Shadowblades, healers, shamans or a tank who cant take much more and need a replacement gets to much attention from a mob
you simply cast amnesia on it and the mob dont remember who he was angry at, and go back to the one who hit hardest last time after the amnesia.

I cant remember how many times Ive seen healers die after a instagroup heal simply because its almost impossible to take away that aggro no matter how many taunt styles you land.
If the healer instead cast instaheal and after that Amnesia it would have been very easy. And at lair there are normaly 2 healers so atleast one should be able to cast it, it takes 2 sek to cast.

There is no problem with a critblade to strike and do massive damage or a hunter to critpull and then maybe take one hit before tanks takes over.

I have never seen one healer use it while exping 2 chars to 50, and now realize how useful it would have been in alot of situations when we all ended up dead.

Me myself got a lowbie sorc (20) in albion and use it all the time when there is an infiltrator in group or a Wiz takes aggro, and its no problem at all for even my pet to take over aggro from them.

So please, do learn _all_ your abilities and start use amnesia


Note, this is not a flame against healers, they do a good job most of the times. Its just that the way we exp is to monotone. Pull, CC , tank, heal (boring) instead of do as much damage you can in a few seconds, show your "stuff" (fun), then tank takes over the rest of what is left of the target.
I personaly dont need more exping, but I feel for the rouges that has to solo all the time because of the healer love tank syndrome .


Have fun!

Spix/Jonas

 

[Archeon]

AE/ST Amniesia is my 3rd Favourite spell. its so damn useful it can be used for

1. Pulling in malmo (done that )

2. Clearing mob hate lists

3. (and this is what i primarily use it for now) inturupting casters!

think about it, 2300 range is the same as bolt but a cast time of 2sec? it might not do any damage but i'd like to think i've kept those casters subdued in the room above the MMG plenty of times so that we can gank their tanks

4. freaking albions out on the few occasions people from different realms get together and don't try to kill each other

incidentally my 2nd favourite spell is AE mez, and my most favouratist spell in the whole of the big wide world (for healers) is remigration from valhalla


The reason tanks are loved and shadwblades are not is simple. YES a Shadowblade CAN do more damage, but it slows everything down if we need to wait between pulls and mez breaks for stealthers to restealth so they can let off their uber dmg.

Thats my reason anyway, i've rarely had a problem with keeping an SB alive while he/she has aggro

 

[old.Stang]

Do you really think healers will use amnesia only to give Hunters, Shadowblades better protection?, with none of that class in group they dont need amnesia and most of them prever that.

Hunters and Shadowblades are the "Outlaws" of the realm, nobody needs or wants us so we must be feel "lucky" if a group invite us...

Btw... Best option in a group is to use detaunt styles, no or less aggro so the healer can use his/her mana on the "real" group players...

 

[Archeon]

Stang, i know your a shadowblade and by the sounds of it one thats been fairly beaten down by the whole

"we hate shadowblades, they can't do dmg, they can't take hits, blah, blah, blah" ethos that most groups seem to have

Trust me when i say quite a few healers, mostly the ones that play for fun not to be uber players. genuiny don't care too much about this kind of thing.

at the end of the day when i'm grouped i try very hard not to abuse my position. the only time i've ever been forced to drop the nice guy act and seriously threaten a group with my leaving was when i was playing my shaman, our group leader disbanded leaving a shadowblade incharge. i didn't realise at the time but the tanks slapped together a little conspiricy to get rid of him by disbanding and forming around him, i was forced to threaten to leave to get them to reinvite him which pissed the tank in question off no end. sadly the shadowblade was deeply offended that they'd tried to kick him out called us all tossers and left out of discust

so yeah, people that are in this game to try and be well recognised 'uber' players will definatly have a problem with shadowblades joining their groups. however myself and other people that don't understand what self-respect you can gain from playing a computer game to the point where everyone knows your name apart from those people you work with will genrally not have too much of a problem


don't worry, once you hit 50 you can make nice little SB gank groups and farm RPs like theirs no towmorrow

 

[stabba3]

I xped for about 8h (not sure tbh) having 2 SB:s, yes shadowblades taunting one mob each, prots,execs,diciples, you name it, they tanked it. wasnt very much hassle imo, nor did any of the healers complain about it. The last 4 or 5 hours we had a lvl 46 SB tanking, we also had some thanes and a warrior on the list. At some point we had a hunter taunting too. It all worked very well . We didnt use amnesia (think you forgot to mention that it can be resisted?) just stuns and pbt .

 

[Runolaz]

I must say that except for one incident in Lair I have never missed a spot with my SB, but I have probably played 70% time solo or with guild grp's, so it is possible I wasn't that exposed.
I know there are stories around like the one Archeon told.

Before the 1.48 SB did not have 2.2 spec, and for me that helped a lot. I soloed much better and I did much more dmg in grp's as well. I felt a bit gimped before regarding dmg (was a CritBlade at the time). Now you will have either CritBlades that can make hugh dmg whilding a 2H and you will hit almost all the time, because you have the points to max your main weapon or at least get it close to lvl (has anybody notices how many times a Skald misses its target during PvE). Then you have the SZ doing just about the same dmg as a zerker. The fact that SB's without using taunt styles get aggro proves that they hit hard. People also seem to forget that at higher lvl, the evade rate on a SB can somtimes be amasing, but sadly you cannot count on it. ususally I can take 2-3 direct hits from a drakulv, but SB will often evade. I have tanked with my SB in guild grp's in Raumarik, it was not an ideal situation, but we managed.

My problem now is that I cannot get home from work early enough to get into Lair grp and that has nothing to do with skill or class .

 

[old.anubis]

sbs suck in pve
you can tell amazing stories about evades and such, they suck anyway, live with it

The fact that SB's without using taunt styles get aggro proves that they hit hard.

if sb is taking aggro in pve then he sucks twice

and yes, this is coming from sb

 

[Runolaz]

Originally posted by old.anubis
sbs suck in pve
you can tell amazing stories about evades and such, they suck anyway, live with it

The fact that SB's without using taunt styles get aggro proves that they hit hard.

if sb is taking aggro in pve then he sucks twice

and yes, this is coming from sb

I think you missed the point here Anubis, I was not saying that SB should get aggro. Some have said that SB dmg wise don't make up...as in they hit for crap...the fact that SB MUST contol their dmg proves that they actually do a lot of dmg. Try reading it again before you answer...

As for PvE yes they are not the best chars arround...hands down, but they don't suck. To me the person playing the char is more important that the class he is playing. I have played with main tanks that don't know what "taunt" means, or RM nuking the "shit" out of mobs before the tanks get aggro...

I tell you what I think...I think it sucks that ppl say they suck...I live with it, but that does not mean I like it. And for the record again it has not been a problem for me I'm just trying to help other SB. In fact I think you should too...

And, btw evade has saved my ass many times...

 

[old.anubis]

the thing is that sbs dont outdamage vikings
all anytime styles except taunts use lotsa endurance, you are not going to use taunt styles in pve, are you? so 90% percent of the exp you will be ooe (if you have a really good puller who constantly supplies you with fresh wolf meat), and without end you will do faaaar less dmg than any viking in your group (skalds included).
and if you are using your pa + cd chain (which you can do only on one drak out of four from the pull) you are completely wrong, since your stun is 5 sec whereas the stun from healers is 10 sec long

this applies for good lair group. sbs are not needed there. try to substitute one sb from your group by similar lvl viking and you will see the increase in exp (if there are two fgs exping). that is the fact.

 

[old.chesnor]

Amnesia can be used to clear mobs hate list so the SBs can PA away etc.. but is that really how you want to exp. It is not sensible for a SB to use PA ever in a group. By all means use the anytime non-stealthy CS moves, or just plain sword/axe styles, but PAing in groups is just dumb.

The problem with SBs/Hunters isn't that they have poor dmagae (they have some of the best), but that is about all they offer groups. Tanks get protect/guard/intercept etc, they have shields (some of them) and they can take hits. SBs and Hunters can't. If a SB/Hunter (and please never pull with crit shot in groups lol) does get aggro, then the Healer can use Amnesia, but its an emergency situation, not a routine exping tactic.

And if your infiltrator whispered to you that he gets in any easier grouping in Albion, he was bullshitting you anyway

 

[Xandax]

Hehe -had fun at one time in Lair - we were 2 SBs in g2 (or 1 in g2 (me) and 1 in g1) - we PAed almost all the first inc. from a pull without dying due to it at any time, and if I(we) got aggro it was just 1-2 detaunt with a fast swing time wich often I do more damage with my SB then I ever did with my thane at lowerlevels before the second hit from the mob anyway.

I've died in lair and at H as an SB - but no more then I did as a tank.

Most often it comes down to the fact if tanks are willing to taunt to keep aggro of casters, healers and rogues.
(and not all tanks on the same mob - share the endurance in a pull )


BTW - hunter can pull with crit.shot, just detaunt when the mob comes into meele. (the aggro from bows are decreased compared to meele)

 

[Xandax]

Originally posted by old.anubis
the thing is that sbs dont outdamage vikings
all anytime styles except taunts use lotsa endurance, you are not going to use taunt styles in pve, are you? so 90% percent of the exp you will be ooe (if you have a really good puller who constantly supplies you with fresh wolf meat), and without end you will do faaaar less dmg than any viking in your group (skalds included).

this applies for good lair group. sbs are not needed there. try to substitute one sb from your group by similar lvl viking and you will see the increase in exp (if there are two fgs exping). that is the fact.

Have taken aggro sevelral times from g1 "vikings" as a g2 without using styles.
My SZ does way more damage then my thane ever did - especially if I have a damage add (love them dark runies ) Mostly due to swing time, and especially compared to 2h users.

I don't use anytime styles all the time, most often only 1-2 doublefrost on each mob, other then that it is conditioned styles ei. snowsquall.

I find, maybe due to experience from being a tank, that I seldom go ooe.

Don't try to generalise with things you seem to have little to no idea about. It all comes down to play style, and I've seen bad SB/hunter but even more so - I see/seen bad tanks.
SBs, imo and experience, usually have better idea about aggro (compared to vikings) seeing as they are used to working on not getting to much of it.
(I see many tanks that doesn't even know what they de-taunt/taunt style is - at level 45+? - scary)

As for the fun - last statement - I would just like to say that you haven't seem to see 2-3 SB, skald and healer in g2 getting better exp then g1? - Well I have, more times then one.
Throw in a dark runie for extra buffs and nukes and you can all but remove much of g1 exp.

 

[Runolaz]

Originally posted by old.anubis
the thing is that sbs dont outdamage vikings
all anytime styles except taunts use lotsa endurance, you are not going to use taunt styles in pve, are you? so 90% percent of the exp you will be ooe (if you have a really good puller who constantly supplies you with fresh wolf meat), and without end you will do faaaar less dmg than any viking in your group (skalds included).
and if you are using your pa + cd chain (which you can do only on one drak out of four from the pull) you are completely wrong, since your stun is 5 sec whereas the stun from healers is 10 sec long

this applies for good lair group. sbs are not needed there. try to substitute one sb from your group by similar lvl viking and you will see the increase in exp (if there are two fgs exping). that is the fact.

LOL this is the most BS I have ever heard...It amasing WOW you just got BS award for me for this week. You vil see XP increase in Lair without SB's??...what a bunch of crap...I have been in lair with one other SB and 2 Hunters in G1 and I can tell you that the XP was the same...hehe....bah...did think you were that stupid....hehe.

As for grp pre-Lair I have never had problem with END and I have out-dmged my Viking friends by far many times. And about getting In PA-CD that is easy...just let the tank taunt first...then you PA and 97% you will not get aggro, but I agree in lair I don't use it that much.

Again LOL Anubis...more XP in Lair LOL...

 

[old.anubis]

lol, maybe you outdamage zerks?
just look at the stat called weaponskill, and compare it with any tank. this number says exacly by how much they will outdamage you.
if you are using 2 axes 90% of your dmg comes from skald chant and runie dmg add, but this is just because you use two weapons, and not because you are uber leet shadowblade.

and dont bs me, i know what i am talking about. i would trade 2 sbs for one viking anytime.

 

[Zill]

If you play your SB well, then you should find it more easier getting a group. I practically lived in Malmo from lvls 39 - 50 and was grouping with the same people day in day out and therefore I found it easier to be accepted. Of course there were times when I was overlooked by other players when I was on the dreaded waiting list, it's frustrating I know but that is all part and parcel of leveling a stealther in Malmo I'm afraid.

 

[Xandax]

Originally posted by old.anubis
lol, maybe you outdamage zerks?<snip>

Well - you said any viking? - sheez - of course a zerk will do more damage then SBs.

Today I drew - without using styles - aggro from 2 tanks when killing a WoW.

And don't BS yourself - you know nothing.

 

[old.Stang]

If you play your SB well, then you should find it more easier getting a group. I practically lived in Malmo from lvls 39 - 50 and was grouping with the same people day in day out and therefore I found it easier to be accepted. Of course there were times when I was overlooked by other players when I was on the dreaded waiting list, it's frustrating I know but that is all part and parcel of leveling a stealther in Malmo I'm afraid.

Yeah u need friends there i guess, been there from lvl 38 til now, always trying to be nice to everyone but still hard to get a spot. H was a nightmare not only the waiting time but mostly i was in G2 and that means bad exp and no loot. When i dinged to 43 i was hoping it was easier to get a spot in G2 at Lair. First to reach it is not easy, i died twice when i was close to the entrance, asked for rezz but no response, again that long trip to Lair with the risk dying again. Finaly i made it and i was 2 days on the list, total wait time more then 20 hours without a spot. I was sick of this and start to solo an executener, then i returned to DF where i soloing the most of my time hoping to find a group there. Maybe i return to Lair at my next half ding, i dont want to lose my hard earned 2.5 bub...

 

[Spix]

My post was not realy a save the rouges post, there are more than enough sbs already

What I was saying that if someone get to much aggro and cant handle it , use amnesia to help tanks with the taunt instead of spamming heal on the target, saves mana and end and healer wont get aggro for over healing.

Spix

 

[old.Rusfighter]

From healers point of view...

If U think that healer in Lair got lotsa time to think about any nonkey players in group (key chars Fender, Agroholder, Mezzer)... U R wrong. A... little Lair healers todo list...:

1. Buff all the group.
2. Talk to everyone who asked 4 buffs when OOC.
3. Talk to grouptanks about protect.
4. Talk to all the group about who will pull/taunt/break mezz/put WWs out of healer if mezz fail etc.
5. Ok... we R ready... pull... Mezz and/or AE mezz, stun, instastun, instamez, instaAEmezz.
6. Stun first mob on agroholder.
7. Debuff first mob on agroholder.
8. Take a look at pullers life and heal if needs.
9. Give instaheal to some uberdamagin SB (ill explain about rogues/casters healin later).
10. Stun second mob on agroholder.
11. Debuff second mob on agroholder.
12. Mezz/stun accidentaly breaked mob.
13. Remezz fourth mob.
14. Heal agroholder.
15. Stun third mob on agroholder.
16. Debuff third mob on agroholder.
17. Heal some brave zerk from G2.
18. Heal agroholder.
19. Stun fourth mob on agroholder.
20. Debuff fourth mob on agroholder.
21. Heal agroholder.

Inc. Inc. Meep! Meep!

About rogues/casters healin. Let me try to explain the things with my bad english

Some intro:
- WW attack delay its about 4 seconds.
- WW kill rogue/caster in 2 hits.
- Our healer is... standart one with 22 in mending.
- Our healer do nothing (unbelievable... C ^^) at this moment.

Some rogue/caster got agro and got hit by WW. And now everything is just about timing.

- Rogue/caster got hit... tik... tik... tik
- I C his life dropped (minimum 0.5 sec passed - its lag things and my reaction time)
- Pushed Shift # to select rogue/caster and push heal button (1 sec passed from first hit)
- My highest available heal is Greater Reparation with 3.31 sec casting time... ok, ok... i got some DEX... lets say... 3 sec
- Im healin! Im healin! ... 4 secs passed... hit #2... dead rogue/caster

Shure. I can cast amnesia but:

- i should change quickbar (its time)
- amnesia got very high resist rate

Instaheal - the only WTG. 15 min timer

A dont have anything about any class in Lair groups bout PLEASE!!! Say with me all the uberdamagin SBs: "I can use 1 hand weapon. I got detaunt style. I know how to use it. I will use this style and nothing else here in Lair!". Repeat it before each pull and everything will be fine

PBAE groups - UBAH cheat

 

[Runolaz]

Originally posted by old.anubis
lol, maybe you outdamage zerks?
just look at the stat called weaponskill, and compare it with any tank. this number says exacly by how much they will outdamage you.
if you are using 2 axes 90% of your dmg comes from skald chant and runie dmg add, but this is just because you use two weapons, and not because you are uber leet shadowblade.

and dont bs me, i know what i am talking about. i would trade 2 sbs for one viking anytime.

I thought it was pretty obvious that I was not comparing to a zerker...

I only answer to your post about getting faster xp in lair without SB/Hunters in the grp's, and that my friend is what I refer to as BS.

And yes PBAE-grps owns...

 

[Archeon]

Originally posted by Runolaz
And yes PBAE-grps owns...

i'm ignorant, be a nice little SB and explain to me exactly what a PBAE group is

 

[old.Rusfighter]

Mid PBAE Lair group:

- 3+ 45+ PBAE SMs
- 1+ 45+ healer
- 1+ 45+ RM (pbt)
- 2+ meleers (they should stay for two WW hits)
- leechers (any other chars)
- all ppl should stay CLOSE together (i mean VERY CLOSE)

Inc. Inc. Meep! Meep!

As always 4 mobs runnin. 1 pulled and 3 just behind him:

- puller run through group
... from this point nobody moves ...
- mobs come to group and
- healer AE stun (3-4 secs pause) AE stun
- tanks - taunt
- SMs waitin for 2-3 secs after first contact and PBAE, PBAE, PBAE, PBAE

This type of exp groups got two problems:
- lack of mana (even with manaregen 5)
- LOTSA loot (U should select 1 ppl from each group to pick up those damn bags)

 

[Archeon]

Hmm... well seeing as i've never been in a PBAE group (and probably won't for a very long time) i'l have to take your word on it.

but it doesn't sound any different from normal pulling except for using a stun instead of a mez and casters being allowed to use AE (and PBAE) :/

 

[Runolaz]

Originally posted by Archeon



i'm ignorant, be a nice little SB and explain to me exactly what a PBAE group is

Small part of the best guide I have found...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The basic recipe for PBAE is

1 taunter per mob pulled
1 PBAE nuker
1 pulsing bladeturn character
1 healer
1 downtime person

So a full group of 8 should have 4 taunters. There are many variants upon this basic mix, but this mix is here for illustrative purposes.

The basic idea is this. Someone pulls. Nearsight is good for pulling, but many tanks have spell like abilities useful for pulling. Each taunter uses a style with the taunt effect on a separate mob. You do not mez or root. The taunters then draw the mobs together into a pile at the PBAE point. Any non-taunter
who gets agg runs at the PBAE point. For midgard, the healer then uses AE stun. Then all PBAE nukers start nuking until the pile is dead. Anyone else may use AE nukes once the tanks have the mobs.

Midgard
Taunter = warrior, berserker, thane, skald, shadowblade, hunter
PBAE nuker = full suppression spiritmaster
Pulsing bladeturn = suppression runie
Healer = healer, high mending shaman
Downtime person = healer

Taunters- must have the taunt style, which is all you use. You have the most complex and demanding task in the group, and once you do this for a while, all other parties will seem boring. Do yourself a favor and
make a PBAE bar, IE

/stick
/face
/assist pbaename
taunt
a few styles to dish out dmg if pbae goes down
sprint

Usually you want good tanks as taunters, since you want to minimize the power drain to the healer to minimize your downtime. This does not necessarily mean the guy needs to be wearing the heaviest armor- I have seen assassin
types evade in combination with pulsing bladeturn take no damage. High shield spec and parry can help a lot here as well. Taunter level matters a great deal- I have seen a high level ranger do better as a taunter than a lower level hero.

 

[Runolaz]

Originally posted by old.anubis
sbs suck in pve
you can tell amazing stories about evades and such, they suck anyway, live with it

Last nigth I was part of a PBAE grp as a taunter in G1. I used 1H and shield...I actually blocked with my grey firy shield...lol. I also used DOT to taunt. I was buffed good with dex 279-286 and qui arround 200-220 and pbt . I had no problem getting aggro/holding and the Evade/Miss ratio was very high...probably arround 60-70%. I could take from 2-4 direct hits before I needed help, ususallay I evaded or the mob missed. I had to "eat" grass one time, but I can tell you I did not suck up more heals than the other tanks. To me the critical part of a PBAE grp is SM oop and SM death. That said the SB need to be fully buffed, because at one time I had no buffs at all, and that sucked regarding getting/holding aggro and not to mention evade/mob miss ratio.

Thx to Idontcareabouttheme who trusted me the spot in g1, and gratz on lvl 50 m8 .

I'm only writing this because I'm bored at work, wanting to go home and play daoc...lol, but also hoping that ppl will be a bit more open minded about SB/Hunters. To me it does not matter anymore, because I'm soon finished lvling with 0.7 to ding 49, but I think of all the other guys playing them...

 

[old.Rusfighter]

"2-4 direct hits before I needed help" - impossible. Reguler Lair Draculv Protector hit 50 skald (chain, good resists, etc) for 300-400. 90% of rogues/casters WILL DIE in 2 landed hits. Or u ment 2-4 hits INCLUDING evaded and bubbled?

 

[Runolaz]

Originally posted by old.Rusfighter
"2-4 direct hits before I needed help" - impossible. Reguler Lair Draculv Protector hit 50 skald (chain, good resists, etc) for 300-400. 90% of rogues/casters WILL DIE in 2 landed hits. Or u ment 2-4 hits INCLUDING evaded and bubbled?

I got hit for 300-600 average about 400 and I have 1096HP unbuffed. On one occation I got hit for 500+600 from a deep purple and still lived, but I also evaded/mob miss 6 times in a row also from a deep Purple.

2-4 hits means direct hits and then I'm down to 10-20% hp meening I will die if I take one more. If you include evade/miss from mob fully dex/gui buffed and pbt I would say average nr. of hits from mob is 6-7 before I die (unless healed), and by that time in a PBAE the mob is dead.

You should try it out first before saying it is impossible, beacuse it is.

In fact the heavy tanks died 3-4 times and I only died 1 time ...and btw that was not beacause I didn't hold aggro in case you are wondering about that.

 

[old.Rusfighter]

"You should try it out first before saying it is impossible, beacuse it is." - hehe take a loot at my signature plz I know what lair is as a skald and as heler.

 

[Runolaz]

Originally posted by old.Rusfighter
"You should try it out first before saying it is impossible, beacuse it is." - hehe take a loot at my signature plz I know what lair is as a skald and as heler.

Thats not what I ment. I ment take a SB as a taunter in g1 in a PBAE party and see what happends? Have you tried? You are saying that I dropp after 2 hits...plz...you only need to do the math to understand that it doesn't sum up

 

[old.anubis]

actually you CAN survive two hits from lair draks, i think they cap in dmg like 550 or so, dont remember exactly, but they always hit their cap, so if you have 1100+ hits you will live, if not then not