The West Lothian question

[Furr]

So it seems that thanks to the world cup and its subsequently rise of English nationalism, the beating of people in Scotland wearing England shirts and that labour has only been able to get through legislation that affects England using Scottish MP's the Union is starting to look like its about to be tested, and that Scotland gets £1200ish extra per a head in welfare. Do you think that the Union could be starting to crack.

Thanks to Labour's bodge job devolution, something that should never have happened in the first place I think this is going to run and run, the Lib dems are in favour of a federal Britain, the Tories are in favour of booting out the Scots, and labour is trying not to talk about it because Gordon brown is Scottish and they'd struggle to get anything through parliament without Scottish votes, in fact labour may become irrelevant in England if we did federalise or break up.

Personally I think it’s going to cause problem, North sea is running dry, and the cold war is over. Let’s give Scotland their freedom. We could use the money saved on supporting Glasgow crack heads.

 

[Tom]

New Labour will never accept Scotland devolving from the Union because if they did that, they wouldn't ever gain power again.

Even when you factor oil revenues into the equation, Scotland still gets a subsidy from Westminster.

 

[Earl]

Could anyone explain further why they get so much more welfare per person than we do? I'd like to know more

 

[yaruar]

So it seems that thanks to the world cup and its subsequently rise of English nationalism, the beating of people in Scotland wearing England shirts and that labour has only been able to get through legislation that affects England using Scottish MP's the Union is starting to look like its about to be tested, and that Scotland gets £1200ish extra per a head in welfare. Do you think that the Union could be starting to crack.

Just start locking scotties up when they express anti english sentiments, that will teach the miserly wee bastids
:england:

 

[yaruar]

Could anyone explain further why they get so much more welfare per person than we do? I'd like to know more

because there are a lot more of them scrounging on the dole than there are here

 

[Draylor]

Funny that this story gets more press than the various English "fans" that are arrested over in Germany.

Oh, and get your facts right Furr, Edinburgh has a far higher population of crack heads than Glasgow

 

[old.user4556]

This thread has the opportunity to turn very rotten, very quickly; I warn thee.

I live in West Lothian.

 

[old.user4556]

Thanks to Labour's bodge job devolution, something that should never have happened in the first place I think this is going to run and run, the Lib dems are in favour of a federal Britain, the Tories are in favour of booting out the Scots, and labour is trying not to talk about it because Gordon brown is Scottish and they'd struggle to get anything through parliament without Scottish votes, in fact labour may become irrelevant in England if we did federalise or break up.

Just to throw this into the equation, but what about that the largest UK mortgage lender is a Scottish bank, the UK's (second) biggest bank is a Scottish bank, one of the largest clearing banks in the UK is a Scottish bank - both of which are based in Edinburgh.

Edit: Just remembered that the Queen banks with a Scottish bank.

Wouldn't "booting out the Scots" have an absolutely massive impact or indeed cripple the UK's financial system/position/economy?

Just a thought. *shrug*

 

[anattic]

Just to throw this into the equation, but what about that the largest UK mortgage lender is a Scottish bank, the UK's (second) biggest bank is a Scottish bank, one of the largest clearing banks in the UK is a Scottish bank - both of which are based in Edinburgh.

Edit: Just remembered that the Queen banks with a Scottish bank.

Wouldn't "booting out the Scots" have an absolutely massive impact or indeed cripple the UK's financial system/position/economy?

Just a thought. *shrug*

Companies which are, I believe, traded on the London Stock Exchange. That aside, the impact would of course depend on whether the rest of the UK honoured debts or did what Castro did to the US in Cuba and grabbed all Scottish assets...

*takes out mortgage with Scottish mortgage lender*

 

[ECA]

Just to throw this into the equation, but what about that the largest UK mortgage lender is a Scottish bank, the UK's (second) biggest bank is a Scottish bank, one of the largest clearing banks in the UK is a Scottish bank - both of which are based in Edinburgh.

Edit: Just remembered that the Queen banks with a Scottish bank.

Wouldn't "booting out the Scots" have an absolutely massive impact or indeed cripple the UK's financial system/position/economy?

Just a thought. *shrug*

What do any of those points have to do with anything? There are american companies trading in the uk, as well as europeans, its all rather global these days - I'm sure it wouldn't matter much

 

[ECA]

We'd have to have some border controls though, like USA vs mexico....who's for rebuilding hadrians wall? ^_^

 

[Furr]

Well.. acutally the biggest bank is HSBC and thats based in the London and out of the top 7 banks 2 of them are indeed based in edinburgh the other 5 in england. It mainly a numbers game, England has more.

If the south east of england minus london was its own country it would have a greater GDP than scotland. admitidly the south east also has +2 million people on scotland.

Infact the southeast and london as seperate bodies are in the top 10 GDP areas in Europe.

and each scot gets more money spend on them per person per a year

England
£5,453

Scotland
£6,579

Anyway thats not what im getting at.

What im getting at is how england is being taken for a ride by a scotish dominated labour goverment, a nice example as to the the problem with the parliament. Tution fee's for students would have not gone through the parliament if the scotish mp's whom constiutents it didn't affect had not have voted. The devolution was put though rashly beause labour wanted scottish votes, and its coming to bite them on the arse.

I'm not for the break up of the union, instead scots should be barred from voting on issues the affect english constituents but not their own. That the scots pay their own finance towards their own policies instead of getting it from english tax payers. If scotland wants to fund free tution fine, put up taxes for scotish citizens etc.

Im for a fairer deal, and the scots have had their honeymoon period paid for by the taxpayer now they should fund their own way. vote on their own issues and keep out of issues that affect english citizens but not scotish citizens.

 

[old.user4556]

What do any of those points have to do with anything? There are american companies trading in the uk, as well as europeans, its all rather global these days - I'm sure it wouldn't matter much

It's completely different from an American company trading in the UK.

To hold a bank account in the UK, you need to be UK resident (unless BFPO); but if we remove the UK and make it Scotland and England as seperate countries/entities - that opens a whole new set of problems where those in England wouldn't necessarily be able to have a "Scottish" bank account, and since the biggest mortgage lender belongs to a Scottish bank, there could potentially be a political stalemate there. You would also have the issue of Scottish notes and English notes, the Bank of England etc.

What i'm saying is that Scottish independence in my opinion, would be a total fucking disaster. Devolution was a big enough dogs dinner.

 

[old.user4556]

What im getting at is how england is being taken for a ride by a scotish dominated labour goverment

...

Im for a fairer deal, and the scots have had their honeymoon period paid for by the taxpayer now they should fund their own way. vote on their own issues and keep out of issues that affect english citizens.

You mean how like the English voted in favour of the poll tax, then implemented it in Scotland?

Isn't there a bit of hypocrisy on both parts here?:

1) The fact that Scots are voting on English subjects (exisiting problem)

2) The fact that Thatcher had the great idea of the poll tax, then tested in Scotland (previous problem)

 

[Furr]

You sound like labour blaming everything on a woman who was booted out of her own party 16 years ago.

Additionally scotish parliament didnt exist then, so the scotish MP's would have had a vote on it too, it was 'implemented' in Scotland first.

 

[mank!]

Funny that this story gets more press than the various English "fans" that are arrested over in Germany.

all 15 of them? there was more people arrested in london at the giant screens for the paraguay game.

of course, scottish fans don't get condemned anywhere near as much for attacking a disabled man, a young child and burning a flag.

 

[Will]

So it seems that thanks to the world cup and its subsequently rise of English nationalism, the beating of people in Scotland wearing England shirts and that labour has only been able to get through legislation that affects England using Scottish MP's the Union is starting to look like its about to be tested, and that Scotland gets £1200ish extra per a head in welfare. Do you think that the Union could be starting to crack.

Thanks to Labour's bodge job devolution, something that should never have happened in the first place I think this is going to run and run, the Lib dems are in favour of a federal Britain, the Tories are in favour of booting out the Scots, and labour is trying not to talk about it because Gordon brown is Scottish and they'd struggle to get anything through parliament without Scottish votes, in fact labour may become irrelevant in England if we did federalise or break up.

Personally I think it’s going to cause problem, North sea is running dry, and the cold war is over. Let’s give Scotland their freedom. We could use the money saved on supporting Glasgow crack heads.

Not checking your facts? Or are the Daily Mail on the offensive again?

Subsidising Scotland? I think you'll find that the South East is much more heavily subsidised. But they just phrase it differently.

Pushing through legislation? I assume you are tallking about The Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill.

"The more substantive point is that it is not true to claim that last
night's Government victory was only achieved due to the support of Scottish Labour MPs. While it is true that there were 41 Scottish Labour MPs in the Government lobby (though most reports say only 40) — more than the number by which the Government won — there were also three Scottish Labour, nine Scottish Lib Dems and five SNP MPs in the other lobby."
Philip Cowley added that the logic that argues that it is wrong for Scottish MPs to vote with the Government also precludes them from opposing it.
"If you remove all Scottish MPs from Tuesday's vote, the Government would have won with a majority of just eight (245 to 237). Whatever one's views on the West Lothian Question, last night's vote was not an example of legislation being forced on the English due to Scottish votes," he said.

And the presence of Scots has never majorily affected Government.

"No UK parliament since the war has over-ruled a majority of English MPs. The Labour governments of 1945-50, 1966-70 and October 1974-79 were all elected with a majority over the Conservatives in England. Only the very short administrations of 1964-66 and February to October 1974 faced a Conservative majority of English MPs. These short parliaments did not inflict major legislative changes on a bitterly hostile electorate".

Then again, I'm pro-independence, so I'd be perfectly happy to be chucked out of the Union. What will you do with Wales and Northern Ireland though?

Since someone has dug up poll tax.

I remind the House of one case in particular--the poll tax. The hon. Member for Woodspring talks about the West Lothian question as though it were a new problem. It is not. We in Scotland suffered from the home counties question, the Devon question, the Cornwall question, the Norfolk question and the Suffolk question week after week as generations of Members of Parliament from the Tory shires, press-ganged into Committee service, marched into the Division Lobbies to vote down the Scots without ever having heard a word of the debate. That is what I mean when I say that they have not lost their cheek. Let them come here and confess how they treated the House and the Scots within it. I promise the House that this Government will not repeat the mistakes of the previous Government. We believe in the new politics and the new democracy, even if some Conservative Members give us cause to wonder whether they are worth it.

 

[DaGaffer]

Not checking your facts? Or are the Daily Mail on the offensive again?

Subsidising Scotland? I think you'll find that the South East is much more heavily subsidised. But they just phrase it differently.

LOL. That article is over ten years old, you know, before Labour got in? Bottom line is that Scotland has a net inflow of tax revenues from the rest of the UK to the tune of £10bn a year. The rest of that article was nonsense anyway because its basic premise was that the average London taxpayer has more spent on him than the average Scot, but given there are far more people here and they earn more, its hardly surprising is it?

 

[Will]

I got lazy on that link, I admit.

This* is a bit more up to date, though hardly an unbiased source.

*PDF download, refuses to open online.

 

[TdC]

given there are far more people here and they earn more, its hardly surprising is it?

um, you don't think the odd millionaire banker in Londinium would be slewing the issue for the local streetsweepers would you?

 

[Furr]

TDC use's words that are to complex for me

I was about to write a long article but instead

a) London it has more people than scotland 7,465,100 to scotlands 5,062,011 (rougly)
b) The Gross London earnings are a hell of alot more money than Scots,
c) Much more tax revenue is recieved from Londoners than from Scotland

Pushing through legislation? I assume you are tallking about The Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill.

Higer education bill 316 votes to 311 (win for labour)
number of scotish mp's who voted : 46

Top up fee's introduced, why should a piece of legislation that affects english university's have its possible fate decided by people to who the effects don't matter.

And the presence of Scots has never majorily affected Government.

It was a british election, for a British goverment that includes England, Wales, Ireland and Scotland. Therefore the results would obviously take in the votes of all nations? don't see what point you getting at here. I have nothing against Labour winning if thats what people want. The Scots, the Welsh, Irish and English MP's all vote on matters regarding Britain.

That English MP's can't vote on matters regarding Scotland but can regarding England thats my issue, and that scotish mp's can introduce nice legislation that affects them but not the english, but the english tax payer end up helping to pay for it, thts what i object to.

I want to see that PDF but can't get it to open anyhow....


//the tax on a millionaire is probably what the goverment uses's to pay for a couple of roadsweppers anyway.

 

[DaGaffer]

um, you don't think the odd millionaire banker in Londinium would be slewing the issue for the local streetsweepers would you?

The odd millionaire banker still pays tax (if he doesn't he doesn't count in the GDP figure), so what's your point? No-one's denying there are more high-paying jobs in London than anywhere else (in Europe tbh) but far more important is the sheer number of people down here.

 

[TdC]

but that is my point. surely the percentage of large incomes inthe area slew the numbers presented? Your arguement is that the amount of tax is justified given the average earnings, while the average earnings are slewed due to a relative small percentage of very high incomes. Sure, those people pay tax too, but a single person paying a lot does not need mass transit and stuff.

sorry, I may be missing things, I'm deep in a computer bunker atm

*walks off mumbling about unix, fluffy bears and butterflies*

 

[old.user4556]

To echo something similar,

Would you pro-down south, high earner boys feel happier if Scots paid a lot more tax to plug this subsidising? It's just not possible, jobs don't "pay enough" (relatively speaking) up here.

There is an increase of yuppie Scots (i'd stick myself in this bracket) that want to divorce ourselves from this "leeching peception" - but what happens - they all move to London where the highly paid jobs are . My sister grew up and was educated in Scotland, but since there were fuck all decent jobs/careers in Scotland in comparison to London, she moved down south to Docklands.

I can see myself going the same way.

 

[Will]

TDC use's words that are to complex for me

I was about to write a long article but instead

a) London it has more people than scotland 7,465,100 to scotlands 5,062,011 (rougly)
b) The Gross London earnings are a hell of alot more money than Scots,
c) Much more tax revenue is recieved from Londoners than from Scotland

Thats what the PDF refutes.

Higer education bill 316 votes to 311 (win for labour)
number of scotish mp's who voted : 46

Top up fee's introduced, why should a piece of legislation that affects english university's have its possible fate decided by people to who the effects don't matter.

though legislative competence and executive responsibility in the area of higher education has been devolved, nevertheless we cannot speak about higher education in England and Scotland as being two hermetically sealed systems. There is an interaction. It is right that Scottish MPs in Westminster should be able to have a view and a vote on what is happening because the Bill will affect the nature of Scottish higher education.
A story that I have repeated here at an earlier stage illustrates this point as regards top-up fees. English universities will find themselves in a more advantageous position so we may well get Scottish academics being tempted to English universities where at the same time it is possible that the fee provision in Scotland will be more advantageous to students. So, English domiciled students may well rush off to Scotland. There is the wonderful possibility of one charabanc colliding with another somewhere between Edinburgh and London to the devastation of the whole of the UK higher education system.

It was a british election, for a British goverment that includes England, Wales, Ireland and Scotland. Therefore the results would obviously take in the votes of all nations? don't see what point you getting at here. I have nothing against Labour winning if thats what people want. The Scots, the Welsh, Irish and English MP's all vote on matters regarding Britain.

The majority in Parliament has never been skewed by the Scots votes, apart from two very unstable Labour governments which didn't last long.

That English MP's can't vote on matters regarding Scotland but can regarding England thats my issue, and that scotish mp's can introduce nice legislation that affects them but not the english, but the english tax payer end up helping to pay for it, thts what i object to.

My PDF refutes that the English taxpayer pays for it. However, I agree with your fundamental point here. There are four answers to the West Lothian Question.

English Votes on English Laws
Fewer Scottish MPs
English Devolution
Dissolution of the Union

The only statement which is practical, and which makes any sense, is dissolution of the union. But then you are left with the Welsh Assembly, and the Northern Irish equivalent, if they don't end up killing each other.

 

[Furr]

I wouldn't trust a financial report thats drawn up by the SNP, Enron had financial repots too.

also found this article on the SNP's forecasts
http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/63519.html

So yeh, take it, we just about finished with the north sea as it is!

 

[old.user4556]

Dream on Furr

 

[Furr]

But its true!

anyway who is Lord Sewell.. secondly bollox to him! Its not up to him anyway,

thirdly, somethings going to have to be done anyway, Gordon Brown will have to do something since at the moment the english won't vote for him if he doesn't and if the Tories get back in power they'll sort it out. So either way it will get done.

Lib dems don't count since "im really really really old" Ming Cambell will lose alot of votes for the lib dems which will mostly either not vote or go back over to the new green and friendly cameleon Cameron. Who we all know deep down is a Blue and true

either way,

All your bases belong to us so nahhhhhhh

 

[DaGaffer]

but that is my point. surely the percentage of large incomes inthe area slew the numbers presented? Your arguement is that the amount of tax is justified given the average earnings, while the average earnings are slewed due to a relative small percentage of very high incomes. Sure, those people pay tax too, but a single person paying a lot does not need mass transit and stuff.

sorry, I may be missing things, I'm deep in a computer bunker atm

*walks off mumbling about unix, fluffy bears and butterflies*

Yeah, but you missed a third factor; geography. There are five million-ish Scots in the whole of Scotland, there are 8 million Londoners (and in reality with tourists, business visitors and illegals probably more like 11-12 million) in an area 50 miles across. And even outside London, the rest of the South-East contains over 50% of the rest of the UK's population. All those people strain infrastructure in lots of ways that you don't see elsewhere.

The reality is, I don't give a fuck about subsidising Scotland (or other parts of England for that matter, I'm a northerner after all), given the way Britain's set up, geographically, demographically and politically, its inevitable; I just wish people wouldn't deny the reality of the situation.

 

[Will]

I wouldn't trust a financial report thats drawn up by the SNP, Enron had financial repots too.

also found this article on the SNP's forecasts
http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/63519.html

So yeh, take it, we just about finished with the north sea as it is!

The CBI have their own agenda.

Also this is fairly well put, until the bit about Sean Connery by Jim Sheridan.

Lord Sewell, a Labour Lord.

Good point DaGaffer. It is inevitable that some areas of the UK will end up paying more in taxes than others. Its unrealistic to chop it up smaller and smaller because some area is scrounging off you, you'll end up with various London burghs declaring independence.