The story of See Hidden

E

eragrim

Guest
Some of you might know me, others might not, I am an old hunter sharing my story, my glory and my fall...



I have played daoc since the early beta, and back in those days decided already then that the path of the hunter was to be my desinty. I played intense and I soon releasied that our kin was not well liked by other souls, we were concidered a weakness within groups, so I soloed most of my lvls and after alot of very hard work I managed to raise in skill...

I soon discovered that the class had many weaknesses, the pet abillity was there to "make up" for it, as I noticed how much more powerfull the Scouts and Rangers were. I soon discovered that the pet was totally useless and I often had to dismiss it in groups (when I got groups) since they declared it an exp leecher. Neither could it take aggro allowing me to range kill the mobs and it scarcly ever hit the mobs I was fighting.

I was sad at first when I noticed how our kin was treated and told myself that when I reach 50 all the fun on the battlefield will make up for my hard time lvling, so I continued...

Then I reached the lair, I was allowed within the leech group at 44 which had forced me to solo from 40-44 and that was no easy task. I played in the leech group until lvl 48 when I was finally allowed in main group, then I faced another problem. I needed a bow for RvR. At this time I was not a member of a large guild to this task proved to be very difficult as well, but I got some help from Tiwaz's Emissaries and together we managed to find the Death Whisper bow. I remember that day, it was a good one :)

By this time I had reached 50 and discovered how difficult RvR was, the Death Whisper still helped a little but finding your targets was a very hard task. I could not solo a tank, there was no possibillity, but mages was a possibillity. And the pet abillity... Well, in RvR it is closer to a disadvantage then an advantage.

I quickly noticed that Hunters werent very welcome in groups in RvR either, but yet again, we had stealth, and we were a solo class. Then after a while I started to get the hang of it, grouping with other hunters etc making dual critshots was the most fun I have ever had in daoc. I managed to get up to around 350 000 RPs, often you died short after killing your target, but still you were possible to make it alive, and the feeling of a succesfull kill, was a great one indeed.

I noticed how many new hunters that popped up around in Midgard, I got many /sends of advice and good lvl 50 templates etc, I even had a rather many offers of intrested buyers of my account.

I remember those days as the best in my daoc careér. When the hunter still were a hunter...

I want to point out at this state that making a kill was no easy bussiness, it could take ages for the right target to come and you could blow it totally even on the most solid chances you had...

Here I heard the roumurs from the US server, and shortly after they were confirmed. See Hidden arrived.

All people who are Whine sensetive, please stop to read right here...

The first days I found myself so very angry as I turned of the cpu. You lasted for about 5 mins solo as a hunter in Emain. This change had such a BIG impact on the Hunter class that imo that it is a total different class today. All my ideas of the hunter and all I enjoyed with it were smashed to pieces. Suddenley the ammounts of hunters in Midgard dropped with more then half, and the SB population grew so intense... Not to mention the infiltraitor population. Atm the number of pure stealthers are skyhigh... Everyday I was owned by a new name, and the worse thing was, I had and still hav no abillity to defend myself against them, not a chance whatsoever! I wrote several letters to Mythic's Support and they answered following:

"The Hunter had no natural Predetor"

Goodwork Mythic, we are no longer hunters...
Solo We are the hunted, not to mention gimps , since we are unable to defend ourselves...

(and please dont tell me to spec RA's Purge/IP/True sight, they will make you last one attack from an Infil, the next, you bite the dust)

Some say spear is an advantage Hunters have, against an Infil, it is worthless, one evade is fatal for the battle and one evade will get you that Dragon fang in your face...

Today as Mythic has stripped us of stealth and we have to seek groups and we are still only a weakness in the group compared to other classes, we have nothing to offer...

If I only could go back to the day when my trainer asked which path I were to choose... If only I could get the feeling back of feeling secure when stealthed... I would still find joy within the game itself.

As a customer I think it is horrible how Mythic can allow such a major change to a class that you no longer recognise it, and have to alter your whole playstyle...

was this a fair move from Mythic? Were a hunter with proper stealth owerpowered?

If so, I can defently assure you that nothing of the former hunter remains (the solo hunter), we are no longer a threat gentlemen and ladies, and all my time on Eragrim Nightfall was a waste, which in the end only would bring pain and sorrow upon me...


"As the hunter walks away, you can see the great pain that is over and inside him, batnerfing hurts and it has forced him to leave the path of the Hunter..."



<Eragrim mumbles: Clerics, you're next...>
 
A

Archeon

Guest
lol, this is how i figure it....

in RvR people slowly realise that a certain class is too powerful and has an advantage, E.g. smite clerics!! (boo, hiss)

so people, being people start to bitch and whine and moan and groan and send emails, letters, midnight phone calls, etc.

Mythic (or GAO, or whoever) get the feeling people might be annoyed by the over-bearing power of smite clerics and so lower the power of the smite line...

HOWEVER!

this causes another class to gain a natrual advantage, with the cleric gone void eldritches suddenly have a natrual advantage in RvR...

so people bitch, moan, etc.

Mythic nerf eldritches

then runies,


the way i see it RvR will eventually become a war of attrition with all classes struggling to land a single point of dmg against each other. this will ofcourse ruin the whole point of RvR (you live, you kill, you get zerged by the albi;s :p) and everyone will moan that classes are underpowered

so mythic will raise power again, repeat this general cycle till everyone gets pissed off and leaves.

btw, everyone knows that hunters hide near trees so thats where the stealthers camp. why not take your shot from the middle of the road or just to the left. part of beating 'see hidden' is to be random and shoot from spots that might not offer good cover but no stealther in his right mind would expect you to snipe from

personally i think hunters should just be allowed to negate all stealth, as in they can see through all stealth like it wasn't there. but that would piss stealthers off as they would finally stop being able to stab freindly healers in the middle of ressing a fallen comrade after camping the corpse for 6 hours


oh well, think random kill many ;)
(and pray mythic give you an AE shot :D)
 
O

old.Odysseus

Guest
Eragrim, i feel your pain.
Yours is even worse than mine i imagine, as i have both a shield and my fletching.
 
L

-Lonewolf-

Guest
This gripe has been repeated 1000 fold in America
 
S

Slinker

Guest
<This gripe has been repeated 1000 fold in America>

So because the Americans have complained , we have to roll over like the good little dogs we are ???
 
B

bewal

Guest
See the above... something to look forward to... up there, see it?
 
E

eragrim

Guest
Camouflage or not...

Camouflage will truly help my kin, I have no doubt about it. Still it feels like Mythic are "toying" with the classes...

"Oh feck, we made the archers gimps, throw something in for them in the next patch"

The time gap between these patches arent exactly small. Mythic must think before they make such large changes to a class, and it is sad to see they do not. Nerfing is something you must treat with care.

It seems like they havent learned from their mistakes as they will give the Clerics the taste of the bat next, what will happen after that?

"Oh feck, we made the Clerics gimps, throw something in for them in the next patch"

What will they give the Clerics? AE root? Proably something like that I suppose.


Well, my point is that you must treat classes with care and try to be one step ahead of the consequenses the nerf will have. I also think it is wrong to change a class to the point that infact you must respec and alter your complete playstyle to function in RvR...

And it is rather obvious Mythic does not see one step ahead of their actions...
 
O

old.Odysseus

Guest
camoflage will allow u one cheapshot every 10 minuets. means u have to dodge assassins for 10 minutes after attacking. NOT gonna happen.

another use for camoflage is to scout. sod your rp, just stad somewhere and tell ppl where the enemies are - but beware, detect hidden will see u as before 1.50.

conclusion:
camoflage is not making my scout come out and play.
 
O

old.Filip

Guest
Ehhh... what about minstrels ?..
i have 43-44 in stealth with stuff ... which i feel is useless..

when i can respec i will respec that stealth away..

time for old rant!

AE Mezz,Stealth and Buffs should not have been a part of DAOC
 
E

eragrim

Guest
Our time is by...

As I read this (link posted by Odysseus):

http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=37554169&replies=41


I understood our time is by...


Still the memory of the archers will live on, a time of past glory.

And to the souls out there who are staying with the archer classes (especially the few hunters remaining), may Skadi walk with thee, you have my respect, I admire you all.


<Eragrim lets his bow slip of his back and it falls into the snow making a soft sound... He stands still for a moment, then he turns and walks off into the sunset...>
 
L

-Lonewolf-

Guest
Originally posted by caelithar
<This gripe has been repeated 1000 fold in America>

So because the Americans have complained , we have to roll over like the good little dogs we are ???

No u have to try and be the more mature community and learn to overcome your problems

Or alternatively quit, there is no grey area here

Its deal with it or quit

Soz to be harsh but we infils faced all this crap when we were trying to lvl and even when we didn't have 2.5spec points and were getting kicked crapless by archer classes left right and centre

And infils moaned then and now archers moan, it just becomes one large moan with no constructive comments no attempt to make a poll to Mythic no attempt at any real change

Its like some screaming "SAVE THE PLANET, PUT UR LITTER IN THE BIN!"

But never actually doing anything to help
 
O

old.Odysseus

Guest
Its deal with it or quit

Make a theurg, will soothe all the pain from scouting.

And we all know assassins are mythics pets for the time being, dont worry, nerfs will hit u too sometime.
 
O

old.DARKDANCER

Guest
hmm ive lost count of the times ive been true sighted by archers you just have to learn to use the natural cover around you.
 
O

old.Odysseus

Guest
F8
/face
/stick
etc etc

btw ... WHAT natural cover? Any halfwit assassin know where ppl are and where archers can shoot them from.
Try an archer for a week, come back and say that again.

Ofc, archers can go into cover where assassins dont expect them to be; namely where there are no ppl! Problem solved ... but no rp gained.

Oh and that floating face and the neonsign over the head dont make it any easier.

I strongly advice u to take a look at www.camelot-seer.com and see if u can find the ONE scout on rp-gained-last-week top 100? Hard time finding him? hes at spot 89.
 
O

old.Arnor

Guest
Just wanted to add that a Hunter is ALWAYS welcome in my groups (everybody is really, but still ^^) and especially you Eragrim, been playing quite some time in lair with you :)
I love having hunters standing behind me shooting at at target rich enviroment while I soak/deal damage, and sniffing out the occasional stealther once a while

One of the nastiest combos from early in the game was Aussie (i think) and some minstrel (dont remember, sorry) running around stealthed, mezzing a couple o targets, scout start firing with critshot while minstrel attacks/stuns/dd's and so on. I got picked alot of times by them :)

And like some infil(no name again, i never remember names :D ) said here on BW, he LOVED being "bodyguard" for scouts, just hanging around waiting for an assasin trying to off his scout ^^
 
O

old.anubis

Guest
see hidden sux, respecced out of it
gave me more troubles than benefit
 
O

old.Odysseus

Guest
Aye Arnor, scout+minst and scout+infil can be devastating for attackers.
Too bad its not the same as soloing, being the arrogant bastard I am, I sometimes want some quality time with myself to wreak some havoc upon innocent ppl.
Now Im reduced to be a grouped arrogant bastard with gimped damage.
 
Z

Zill

Guest
In hindsight it wasn't a bright idea introducing the See Hidden ability. All it has achieved is to stop Archers from soloing altogether which thus reduces a massive part of the game for Assassins where we use to spend a fair chuck of our time hunting them down. Since the implementation of See Hidden the game has become less challenging and fun for me personally, and the ability more or less redundant in usage.
 
B

belth

Guest
Ranger > Scout > Hunter... Boost the 2 latter a bit, Hunter a bit more - eg. Evade3 like the others, fix Beastcraft and Spear-styles. Go browse VNBoard and read what Hunters were alike at their prime in US beta. Evil. Don't know what to give scouts, make Longshot a scout-only ability at 35 Bow-spec and increase Longbow natural range to 2300 (or a bit more) - to offset the forthcoming (to Euro) 16.5 DPS bows which give Rangers almost same damage as scouts due to Pathfinding but faster drawtime. Make Nearsight resistable and curable, but give it a bit longer range than Longbow to still keep it somewhat usable. Make archer stealth-timer be 30 seconds after firing bow (whine results in a slap, you can't be allowed to be near-invulnerable) and remove See Hidden, while giving True Sight to all rogues and light tanks as a 10 point RA. Give buffs 2k range. Endless ways of ways to fix things, but sadly Mythic's "unerring" way to handle class-imbalance is to nerf the classes at the top, instead of putting some real thought in to it. They should also play all the classes on the live servers for atleast couple weeks, to see what is wrong with them and what is right. Problem is, they won't.

/end repetition
 
H

Hatt

Guest
Eragrim is right
Some people are wrong..
Camo sux..
Think i saw something like: Ranger>Scout>Hunter too..
Eh should be something like Scout>Hunter<Ranger
Hunter is probably the worst archer class.. but alot of good players plays it.
Another line for those who don't know.. Hunters do deal good damage! Next time you are in a group with a hunter and a skald for example.. ask them for their dmg, attack time etc and compare.
And truesight is great use for groups also if you did not know this.. i would feel unsafe in a small group in emain if there wasn't a hunter in it. These days infils own small groups solo so thats why..
 
L

-Lonewolf-

Guest
I agree see hidden should disappear but sadly what doesn't happen in America will never happen here

You have my sympathies all archer classes
 
B

Brevis

Guest
Well in my opinion both Truesight and Seehidden is a "bug". First of all it allows for free rp. Free rp for the assassin classes all the time when an archer/minstrel is about, and free rp for the archer one minute every 30 minutes.
Because of these RA's (I have truesight myself just to make me feel better ;)) it no longer takes skills to flush out an assassin/archer/minstrel just an RA. I say remove them both except for Truesight which should still cost 10 RR points but should only be available if you get RR4L5 or there abouts, that way you will have to put some effort into getting it.
And hunters should get evade 3, the reason for why we have not eludes me completely.
My spec is 50 bow, 39 spear and stealth, 16 bc. This was my template before seehidden when i started 5 months ago and it will be my spec in the future.
The stealth is still good for hiding from a "normal" zerg since everyone is always running around like headless chickens ;)
Spear is very nice at high spec, I hit yellow con infils for 200 without styles, 250+ with styles, so I can actually give the assassin a fight for his money... to some degree :D Im usually toast when I get mugged like that but it feel good to actually do dam to the silly infils ;)
Well thats just my 2 pieces of copper
 
B

belth

Guest
Originally posted by Brevis
And hunters should get evade 3, the reason for why we have not eludes me completely.

Because at one point in beta, you had chain, 1-h spear and small shield. They just conveniently "forgot" to update the style bonus on spear styles when they made them 2-handed and left you with Evade1 (upgraded to 2 at some point) while putting you to studded and removing small shields. Bit like the thane insta-dd, it was chainable... And the game was ugly. I mean REALLY ugly.
 
O

old.Odysseus

Guest
U hit the nail on the head belth, i totally agree...
Sad that it is utopia :(
 
C

Cowled

Guest
Nerf nerf Nerf nerf Nerf nerf Nerf nerf, gimp, nerf, gimp gimp gimp, nerf, nerf nerf...

I'll show u the nerf-bat!
 

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