The end of Barrysworld?

[Norman]

I've just seen the BT press annoucement about free weekend calls. I have used BW consistently since early 1998 as my main ISP because of the low ping times particularly on their own servers. However I suspect like many a ping of 150 v 200 on btinternet on a V90 modem won't compensate for free calls. I will therefore through gritted teeth be using BT at the weekends.I wonder what this will mean for Barrysworld? Is this the begining of the end? The next step is inevitable. Free calls for a monthly charge of c £40.00.I have had excellent customer service from Barrysworld ( where else can you get a direct response to a query from the owner of a business) as well as the fastest modem connections on the web. A service with these qualities will be sorely missed if BW cannot respond to the corporate onslaught of BT pandering to the masses.
regards
Norman..

 

[Fish]

Well, as was demonstrated by x-stream, once everyone's on it at 0800 rates, your ping of 200 becomes a ping of 2000...

Anyway, BW has lots of servers, and BT... doesn't.

 

[[GA] Shovel]

But do you honestly think you'll get pings of 150-200 on the 0800 number? It'll be clogged permenantly and getting disconnected every 2 hours is crass.

It'll take a lot of uptake by lots of people nbefore the stress is taken off one company, and hense the access will improve, but that's a while off yet.
Mainly cos not enough companies have thew resources to do such a thing,

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[GA] Shovel

See GA @ www.barrysworld.com/blackgold

Sorry the second post appeared as I was writing. Apologes for repeating Fish.


[This message has been edited by [GA] Shovel (edited 01 June 1999).]

 

[TedTheDog]

Well, the ISP market is certainly changing and change is worrying for all concerned.
The online gaming market in the UK is not awash with money. Its a tough market and that why theres so few "serious" players. Quite simply theres very little money to be made currently. It tends to revolve around call revenue share and call minutes are the gold dust that we all rely upon. The 0800 market will certainly dent that, I'd be silly to deny it.

However, it still wont be like it is in America, where the online gaming market is worth piles of cash. BT are gonna cut people off every 2 hours (heh, did you know that short calls are worth more to Telco's than long calls?), and, because they're just about the only "ISP" that will be doing "real" Free calls without lots of catches, they'll be chock full and could well be laggy as fuck. Time will tell. If anyone has the muscle to do this right its BT. I suspect they'll be just fine for browsing and stuff. Our Dialup will still be used for gaming so we'll get something. It'll certainly be lower though, sadly.

Lets face it, free calls have to be linked to the local loop (screaming.net insistance that you change to their Telco to qualify for free calls proves that) and its very easy to look into the future of ISP's in the UK and see them totally dominated by BT.
Theres well over a hundred ISP's in the UK now and that number will drop drastically as BT starts to dominate. In theory, OFTEL is there to stop it, but they have already publically stated that they wouldnt oppose BTInternet doing 0800 calls if they decided to offer them (just a few days before the BT announcement I think).
The Local Loop (the last mile of wire into the house) is the key factor. People constantly refer to the US as an example as to why free calls can work. However, they dont have a single company owning it. The cable companies have to dig to your house to break the cycle and we're a long way away from the Local Loop no longer being a deciding factor in the ISP market.

So, brace yourselves, because the ISP market is going to be BT and a few minor players if OFTEL keep their eyes closed.

I dont see this as the death of us. I see it as the death of the current ISP regime and the birth of a new ISP system whereby the Portal concept pays the bills, rather than call minutes. But thats another story and is all about the future and new ways of financing and something I'd be silly to discuss in public until we're sorted out.

 

[Teardrop]

Hmm. It seems to me that BT is in the perfect position to royally screw all the other ISPs out there. To understand why, you have to know how 0800 numbers work.

See, they're NOT free. They're actually charged at about 4pence per minute (4.5 I think). The catch is, the charge goes to the person you're calling, rather than you.

OK, now think about this. Who does the 4.5p per minute go to? Why, BT of course. They own the network. So if BT offer a 0800 service themselves, they already have a 4.5p per minute PER USER advantage over all the other ISPs out there, who would have to pay BT this charge if they hosted an 0800. BT can't pay itself, after all.

That seems to leave other companies with two options:
1) offer 0800 numbers and pay that 4.5p per minute per user to BT (meaning they're gonna have to utterly wh0re the advertising and/or monthly subs to cover it, let alone make a profit)
2) continue offering 0845 etc Lo-Call numbers. Which is fair enough if BTi is clogged up, but as soon as the modem ratio is sorted (which it eventually will), very few people will pay when they dont have to.

Essentially this is all down to what Ted was talking about, the "Local Loop" situation. By owning the network AND running a service provider, BT are in an incredibly strong position. Personally I don't see how this could have got past Monopolies and Mergers, but then I don't know how BT itself has lasted so long in its current market position. We'd better hope cable/alternative network coverage in this country starts increasing exponentially, because this will be the only way to break this stranglehold.

Oh, anyone else hear that Microsoft are looking to buy up most of the cable operators in this country (including Cable & Wireless)? That's us fucked then...

Cheers
Stu

 

[Fish]

IIRC, to get it past oftel, BT had to prove that their advertising and other income (including the weekday revenue) would cover the fees that they're not actually incurring...?

Of course I could be speaking crap, but if this is true, we could see lots of ISPs with different 'magic days'...

And if BT buys all the cable companies, I'm moving to America!

 

[craigio]

Hi yes, Well the freeserve has said it all. My current isp claranets performance been brilliant since the freeserve system. To the general public they really dont know what is a good connection or bad. Freeserve for instance, is bad in the evenings. Also the mail server that crashed 2weeks ago, clearly shows how under funded the system is. Losing email is not the way forward. This will give the internet a bad rep.
0800 service great idea, phone calls in this country is too much, compared with europe and the us. I wish that the government and oftel will make the market a open one and make the 0845 numbers a free system. AFter all what the point in having computers in schools when it is not cost effevctive to run the system at home.
Otherwise, Uk like all of our other industries will be the worse off.
This will include web access if the current trend continues,

 

[8_Ball]

Microsoft have ALREADY bought a 40% share in Telewest Communications.I dunno wether thats a good or bad thing tho, at least the two companies can bang heads and knowing Microsoft probably invent a whole new protocol that could improve data transer over the net (just a thoery).Depends wether they keep it to themselves and monopolise the technology, forcing peeps to use Microsoft Cable companies if they want the best pings.

Im on cable phone with Telewest and have 3 ISP's - BW,ClaraNet (pay) and Freeserve.Never use freeserve cos pings are shite and its unreliable (on modem).Only use Clara if I know Im gonna be downloading big files from US servers.The other 90%+ of the time I use BW,always have,always will, no matter how many carrots BT dangle infront of my face.

BW get a percentage of the call costs we pay when connecting to BW dial-up and I think its the least we can do to continue to do so, as thanks for all the hard work and effort that TTD,DB's and the rest of the crew put into providing us with a free service.

They dont make money out if it, we all know that what little income comes from the BarryWorld Empire goes straight back in to improve service and servers.So everybody jumping ship to get 'Free' phonecalls will end up 'paying' in the long run.

Stick with them,you know it makes sense

 

[[GA] KillmachinE]

Good point 8-Ball, I know i'll be staying with Barry's, especially when BT cuts you off every 2 hours ans still charges £12 a month.

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[GA] KillmachinE
extreme@barrysworld.com

 

[TedTheDog]

Just a quick point, the call revenue pays our bills. The commercial banner system should provide us with enough revenue for more toys for BW. Gonna bodge that in today at some stage as it "almost" works now and I cant wait any longer for the refinments.

Thats as we stand currently. The future will be different. Not least because with BT and OFTEL on the case (its often been joked that OFTEL is a dept within BT) the call revenue will drop and eventually, disappear altogether (again, all down to ownership of the local loop. The "unbundling" of the local loop has been talked about for ages but nothing has been done yet).

On the BTInternet side of things. They are a seperate company from BT and therefore cannot use Call Revenue from the 0845 charges for the rest of the week to subsidise the 0800 thing at weekends.
We know that, they know that, OFTEL knows that.
OFTEL described BT's auditing as "totally tranparent" so it would therefore "be impossible" for BT to sneak subsidisation through.

HA!

 

[Sres]

If ISP's Join with Telco's to create LocalTel/ScreamingNet ventures, surely people will move to these?

If Nildram (My current ISP) was to join with a cable company and offer Free Call in my area, then I'd jump at the chance.

BT are sliting their own throats with the 0800 number. I can't believe they will be able to cope with the demand for it. LocalTel proved that.

I understand that BT are processing 250 change overs to LocalTel, LocalTel are claiming 50000 people/lines are changing to them, so that equates to 7months worth of delay.

I am changing to LocalTel, the word at the moment is that Screaming Net is ideal for WWW, and the gaming community on there is getting pings of around 150-200 (At the moment!)

When i decided to change over (Asked Girlfriend

). I came to the conclusion that, even WWW, IRC general bollox for free, would allow me to dial to BW to play all my Net games.

I'm not one to flit between games etc. I will play solid for 2 or 3 hours then go chat for an hour! It's this last bit I could be saving £1!

General stuff like web page updating and Chatting takes up 2/3 of my time on-line, I don't need/want to pay for this.

In conclusion (Stop yawning at the back!), I'll always use BW Dial for games, because the ping pong is far superior!

 

[Lizardking]

I read the other day that the first company to exploit a new market typically gets a 75% share of that market, the 2nd gets 15% and the rest battle it out for the remnants. The size of Bt means theyll instantly get 90%. But the best ISPs will still get bought up by wannabe telcos. And the monopolies commision are already on BTs back.
Although Im of the view that better the devil you know, than some geeky american twat called Bill.

 

[Durzel]

If it ever came down to it (and it seems like it will at some point), I would expect BT to have at least a 90% share in the market, if not more.

BT do shoulder the costs of providing 0800 numbers themselves (as opposed to 0800 numbers to other companies which they themselves have to pay for), but the issue of the impact it will have on BT's revenue is debateable. First off, BT claim the revenue they make from telephone calls (of all types) is largely ploughed back into maintenance, product evolution, etc. But then that doesn't concur with their £130+ a second profits (profits being money left AFTER expenditure) being made.

I must admit I was quite surprised by BT's latest move, and although (like most things which cost money to companies rather than customers) it is currently only a token-0800 solution, its a step in the 24/7 direction. However, people shouldn't underestimate the significance of this move, especially considering that for months BT has cited the reason for not supporting 0800-access was that there was insufficient resources for it, and that the market 'wasn't right'. But then I'm not a market analyist..

The next few months will be very interesting, thats for sure..

Daz.