The effectiveness of scouts

[salazzarson]

Question for you all, I would like your opinion on the effectiveness of scouts in RVR.

I have read alot of the threads concerning the balance of rvr, and in general it is is my belief that on the whole the game is still fairly balanced. People moan about this class and that, all realms would like to have characters that are better in rvr, however the the thing that makes a successful rvr group is its balance. A well balanced group will is paramount to success. Now going back to my ealier question, as a 50th level scout i am interested how the other realms think of us.

Personally against the other archer classes i beleive overall we stack up quiet well, but our days of being solo snipers are pretty much long gone. At the moment i play more as a hit and run merchant and moving to play in odins alot more. the emain zerg does nothing for our class at all. I have learnt more about scout tactics in the last month in Odins than 6 in emain hehe.

So ultimately is the Scout class, something to be feared by other realms or just a minor inconveniance hehe


Cheers
Salazzar
50th level Scout
Lionhearts

 

[old.willowywicca]

scout > LW champ. they shoot me for 700-800 dmg all the time

 

[erl]

Re: Re: The effectiveness of scouts

Originally posted by old.willowywicca
scout > LW champ. they shoot me for 700-800 dmg all the time

Only if you are standing still and not fighting anyone, in which place you have to suit yourself a bit

 

[j000 d000d]

I hate archers.

They're the only ones who takes out casters unnoticed.

 

[old.willowywicca]

Re: Re: Re: The effectiveness of scouts

Originally posted by erl


Only if you are standing still and not fighting anyone, in which place you have to suit yourself a bit

hmm, NOPE!!

I was chain suiciding on a load of albs last night outside ligen, (I'm fairly sure they remember it..) thanks for it btw, I got over 2.5k rps in the end.. you guys got a total of 0 from me I kept being PAed and cleric stunned and then shot by anysh for over 600 damage repeatedly..

luckily I have far more patience than albs, who I trust were suitably pissed off by having to chainkill my worthless ass

 

[erl]

Must have been lots of nice crit hits in that case, because this is how it works for us poor archers:

Crit shots can only be performed when the target is not running (ie standing still, walking backwards or strafing) and not in active combat (swinging at a target or target swinging at you).

The most I've seen as a crit shot cap is 1104 (scout of course) that implies regular shot cap at 552, and thus you can't be shot for more without crits unless conditions above apply.

So it seems anysh was lucky, since I guess others were swinging at you at the same time?

edit: Oh, and remember the travel time on arrows, the conditions is checked when we release the arrow, and since it can travel for about 2 seconds if range is long it is possible that you have started to move meanwhile but you can still get hit by a crit shot.

 

[old.willowywicca]

Originally posted by erl
Must have been lots of nice crit hits in that case, because this is how it works for us poor archers:

Crit shots can only be performed when the target is not running (ie standing still, walking backwards or strafing) and not in active combat (swinging at a target or target swinging at you).

The most I've seen as a crit shot cap is 1104 (scout of course) that implies regular shot cap at 552, and thus you can't be shot for more without crits unless conditions above apply.

So it seems anysh was lucky, since I guess others were swinging at you at the same time?

edit: Oh, and remember the travel time on arrows, the conditions is checked when we release the arrow, and since it can travel for about 2 seconds if range is long it is possible that you have started to move meanwhile but you can still get hit by a crit shot.

well if you read my first post, I never said I get crit shot for 700+ all the time, I just said scouts hit me for that all the time.. how they do it really doesn't affect me much, and if he was getting lots of lucky crits well.. he hit me for over 600 atleast 3 times, and hit lothandar for almost 600 (was 598 or soemthing) one time (the only time loth charged em)

 

[revminster]

Slam can be a pain if you don't have purge ready. Otherwise I don't fear Scouts very much. In a one on one melee fight they usually go down pretty smoothly.

Still, getting crit shotted by one hurts a bit I must admit

 

[erl]

Originally posted by old.willowywicca


well if you read my first post, I never said I get crit shot for 700+ all the time, I just said scouts hit me for that all the time.. how they do it really doesn't affect me much, and if he was getting lots of lucky crits well.. he hit me for over 600 atleast 3 times, and hit lothandar for almost 600 (was 598 or soemthing) one time (the only time loth charged em)

You said that they shoot you for 700-800 damage all the time. Since the only way they can do that is with a lucky crit or a critical shot I really doubt that you are hit for that much _all the time_ as you said. That was why I felt the need to explain things about crit shot and such to show everyone that it isn't possible to hit someone for that much all the time.

If not your definition of all the time is 20% of the time they fire at you?

edit: why I bring this up is because a common thought about us archers is that if one person get hit by a crit shot for 900 damage one time this is what he/she remembers and say he/she is hit for every time by archers. He/she seem to forget all the times we shoot him/her with regular shots for 300ish.

 

[Indiana Jones]

there's still one thing that "bugs" me

scouts don't have any kind of speed buff

when i (as an infiltrator) attack rangers/hunters, some of them use a speed buff to escape. In my opinion scouts should get somekind of speed as well.

Ofcourse i don't have a scout char, so it could be that it doesn't matter to them, but it seems unfair from an infils point of view

 

[zapzap]

Infils get shield = slam . sure it makes up for speed buff and much more.
Rangers do hit my sb bit harder then scouts but slam and no purge rdy is the worst fear fighting a scout. slam run a bit back and 2 arrows iam dead

 

[revminster]

Originally posted by Indiana Jones

when i (as an infiltrator) attack rangers/hunters, some of them use a speed buff to escape. In my opinion scouts should get somekind of speed as well.

Pfft.. I mostly use the speed buff to chase ppl

 

[VidX]

LOL yip

Running target means either PING or run-buff after them.

Infs in Thid try to attack Rayenna, then try running cause my first 2 hits do more than their PA does.

Silly things, I'm not a BM, I can shoot you for 100+

As for Scouts, the theory is sound, the way they spec them is not

 

[Jupitus]

Anyone truly doubting them check out Vasili on Duskwave... chugging along quite healthily I would say....

/Cheer Vasili

Jup.

 

[old.willowywicca]

Originally posted by erl

If not your definition of all the time is 20% of the time they fire at you?

"all the time" is an expression silly it means it happens a lot, not ALL of the time, cos if it did happen ALL of the time then that'd mean I release, then instantly am chain hit for 700-800 dmg per shot til dead, release chain hit for etc. etc.. that's the serious overly pedantic way of interpreting "all the time" and it was pretty clear I meant that it happens a lot.

My point was that I get shot for that amount on a regular basis, which surprisingly enough is often over 50% of my life gone in one hit. One hit which doesn't even give me out targetting of my enemy nor which necessarrily means I am in range of them since bow range > champ spells range of 1500.

And anyways yeah, mostly all of those 700+ hits are prob crit shots.. but even after that they hit for 400~ per shot, which very fast == one dead LW champ. And yes these particular scouts are no doubt buff botted or grouped with clerics, not that it matters much to me..

 

[old.Gombur Glodson]

Originally posted by zapzap
Infils get shield = slam . sure it makes up for speed buff and much more.

Infils get specable shield now?!?
Thats a bit over the edge

 

[Falcon]

"Crit shots can only be performed when the target is not running (ie standing still, walking backwards or strafing) and not in active combat (swinging at a target or target swinging at you)."

I have a feeling this rules are PvE rules, I've crit shot plenty of movers before. Even Minstrels/Skalds travelling at max speed. Ask some blue con minstrel, I think Arwenke was the name, got a nice 944dmg one shot kill on her as she travelled at high speed by Renaris

Scouts in RvR, hmm the only time I hate them is when it's a large battle, I always get targetted by them then and find it hard sometimes to find them among the other enemies. In melee I have no probs, Purge takes any worry of both slam and DF away as well as many other things like DoTs and Nearsight. At range, if they get the shot on me I just charge, hit first aid, IP if needed and drop them in melee. Of course problems arise if I don't have purge ready, but generally I can survive in melee after slam wears off.

Ranger speed shout: Agree with Rev, that thing aint for running, it's for chasing I never run 1 vs 1 unless I'm already dangerously low on health from a previous fight, if I'm being trampled by a zerg I tend to spam purge, fa, ip, sprint and speed shout and tend to escape from a 50+ person stampede with a 75% success rate

Just for comparisons to Scouts bow damage, I have 37 +10 bow spec and crit shot for 1002dmg at RR5 with a 16.5dps 5.5spd self made 99% heavy duskwood recurve.

 

[erl]

Now I think we understand each other a bit better Mal . Sorry for the misunderstanding(s).

And Falcon, the conditions of how the crit shot should work is the way I wrote, it applies to RvR too. It's in the FAQ that the hunter TL has written, and probably in the ranger and scout FAQ too. I have never succeeded with a crit shot against a moving target. I don't know how you have made it, sounds weird to me. Remember the travel time, the check is made when you let the arrow go, so they can start moving after that. Mabe it was that way? Or some bug maybe, plenty of those we all know

edit: From the hunter faq, has been there for all the time I've played.

You also cannot critical shot any players who are engaged in melee combat, or at running speed. You can however, critical shot players who are holding still, and in combat mode, but not swinging their weapons. In other words, the only ways to render yourself immune to the extra damage of a crtical shot is to be swinging a weapon in melee combat, or running at normal speeds or higher.

 

[stafford]

crit + falcons eye = owch
but
scouts are nothing compared to other realms archers IMO

 

[revminster]

Originally posted by stafford
crit + falcons eye = owch
but
scouts are nothing compared to other realms archers IMO

You can't crit on a crit. No matter if you have Falcon's Eye or not.
Critical hits only happen when firing the normal shots.

 

[old.Jadow]

Archers, even the feared Welsh (yes that's right welsh!) Longbowman of history would -never- have worked alone.

Scouts are designed seriously around that template i'd say, a combination of an exploring officer, guerrilla fighter, and long range support.

However, there is little cause in the game really for 'scouting' so I believe the tactical and strategic importance of the scout is the sudden strike. However the only way this is -ever- going to be effective is in scouting parties. Six level 50 scouts, with two level 50 infs would be an amazingly devastating group.

However, Choose The Targets... All shoot at the same guy. Six scouts shooting at the same target will drop that guy so fast you won't believe it. So you need to look at which one to go for. Personally I'd normally take out 1) Skald/bard 2) hunters/rangers 3) casters/healers and then the rest after that. When the enemy tanks close, then the infs get to play with dragonfang while the scouts back away and rip them to shit with their bows again.

I've seen this as one of the favourite tactics used on US servers and don't really understand why it's so rarely used in the EU. I'm guessing that maybe it's because 70% of the scouts quit/deleted/rolled infs when the 'see hidden' thing all went up in flames.

Just my opinion dear boys

J.

 

[old.Eynar_Vega]

Originally posted by stafford
crit + falcons eye = owch
but
scouts are nothing compared to other realms archers IMO

You gotta be kidding: ranger > scout > hunter

Why do you think hunters get an upgrade in future patches?

some examples:
- range: scout > ranger > hunter
- evade: scouts & rangers: evade III ; hunters: evade II
- special abilities: scouts: trainable shields ; rangers: celtic dual ; hunters: spear?
- etc...

 

[old.Jadow]

<cough>pets(?)<cough>

 

[blaien Kayy]

Personally i think we are lacking in some area's self buffs for 1 would be nice but if were given those we would loose something else. yes we get trainable shield but i think most scouts would rather be able to self raise dex and quick above having slam after all thats where we inflict the most damage.be pretty boring if we all got the same though.
Yes we go down like a sack of shit most of the time but if played right archer classes can be very effective and that goes for all of the realms.
Now just trying to get to RR5 and see if it makes any difference.

 

[Milkshake]

As a warrior with Shield 50+8....I don't notice Albion/Hibernian archers.

Then, if I feel evil, I'll put Engage on and laugh as arrow apon arrow deflect harmlessly off my shield.

And they say tanks are gimped!

 

[old.Immortal]

Dum di dum. sorry. edit.

 

[old.Jeriraa]

Wtf a crit shot cap of 1100??? I'm spec'd 49+13 bow and my crit shot cap is 935.

self buffs for 1 would be nice

Nooooooo! Dont give scouts any kind of buffs! NERF!!!

 

[minnie]

"At the moment i play more as a hit and run merchant and moving to play in odins alot more. the emain zerg does nothing for our class at all. I have learnt more about scout tactics in the last month in Odins than 6 in emain hehe"

True, very true

I took my scout to yygrda in the 30s levels and learned a lot from that.

Timing is everything for a scout. get the timing right and you get the kill. Scouts IMO are extremely effective in RvR. We need to get the casters down and the scouts can do that well.

 

[erl]

Originally posted by old.Jeriraa
Wtf a crit shot cap of 1100??? I'm spec'd 49+13 bow and my crit shot cap is 935.

Scouts have access to 5.5 delay bows, that is the main reason.

 

[zapzap]

old.Gombur Glodson thx for correcting me /doh
scouts offcause. Must stop reading BW 5.00 am in the morning.