Motoring Teeds needs to go out and buy a V8 immediately...

[~Yuckfou~]

lol. queue incoming taxes on carbofuel based engines....AND on battery cars. yet another political excuse to tax the shite out of road users. I wonder if the price of mass transit tickets will go down?

The governments will have to replace the revenues somehow. My recent Spain research turned up this little beauty. So, generate your own clean electricity and still have to pay for it.

 

[Scouse]

And I don't understand why people are so concerned with range. The majority of trips in the UK are in the single digits of miles.

Doesn't matter what the average trip is - I don't really give a fuck about getting to work but I do care about my weekends - and I regularly drive 300+ miles into remote areas.

If a car doesn't do that then it is *totally* worthless to me. Period.

If it doesn't do that then it is no longer a car to me. The 'handfuls of miles' journeys I already do by bike or tram. Commuting is 95 miles/day so within range. But the reason I want a car is for taking me places I *want* to go rather than have to.

Public transport is a non starter, unless the train takes me, two bikes, all my camping gear, a couple of kayaks and paddles and the o/h from my door, to a campsite in Wales for a night and on to the lakes the night after in less than 3 hours...

Range is *paramount*.

 

[Wij]

Meh. I'm getting a Model 3 when they are available. Would be a reasonable buy through my company due to low BIK even though the BIK won't be 0 anymore. About 4.5 secs 0-60 on the 4wd version I believe.

 

[Wij]

Sadly at the minute cracking hydrogen takes more energy than it releases as fuel

Um. Thermodynamics?

 

[Bodhi]

Um. Thermodynamics?

Um, yes, but currently we're talking like 3x as much. Not entirely viable as a fuel source just yet sadly.

 

[Ormorof]

Doesn't matter what the average trip is - I don't really give a fuck about getting to work but I do care about my weekends - and I regularly drive 300+ miles into remote areas.

If a car doesn't do that then it is *totally* worthless to me. Period.

If it doesn't do that then it is no longer a car to me. The 'handfuls of miles' journeys I already do by bike or tram. Commuting is 95 miles/day so within range. But the reason I want a car is for taking me places I *want* to go rather than have to.

Public transport is a non starter, unless the train takes me, two bikes, all my camping gear, a couple of kayaks and paddles and the o/h from my door, to a campsite in Wales for a night and on to the lakes the night after in less than 3 hours...

Range is *paramount*.

The way dealership in Norway are dealing with this is setting up a "holiday swap" scheme, so when you buy the car you sign up and of you need larger car for longer trip you bring in your electric car and they hand you the keys to something else until you get back

Seems like a sensible measure until range anxiety stops being an issue

 

[CorNokZ]

The way dealership in Norway are dealing with this is setting up a "holiday swap" scheme, so when you buy the car you sign up and of you need larger car for longer trip you bring in your electric car and they hand you the keys to something else until you get back

Seems like a sensible measure until range anxiety stops being an issue

Then they rent out your Tesla to hobos to have nasty sex in for the weekend and then deliver it back like "lol gr8 service, huh?"

 

[Scouse]

The way dealership in Norway are dealing with this is setting up a "holiday swap" scheme, so when you buy the car you sign up and of you need larger car for longer trip you bring in your electric car and they hand you the keys to something else until you get back

Seems like a sensible measure until range anxiety stops being an issue

Massive ballache. I'd be swapping most weekends.

Was in Wales last weekend, Lake District this, potentially Scotland the week after (where an electric car won't even get me *one way*).

I stand by what I said - they have to get me 300+ miles and a ten min refill or they can fuck off.


I want them to work, very much. But right now...

 

[Ctuchik]

Yes it is.

Problem is, it's still niche, so therefore the cars are expensive, if more Governments took this initiative and gave car companies a deadline, I'm sure they'll quickly get affordable leccy cars on the go.

No the real problem isn't affordable electric cars. The problem is too few recharge spots and the time it takes to actually recharge those damned batteries. And then there's the problem with the range. If a car has a 50 mile radius on it's batteries and you have to go to somewhere 150 miles away, that's anywhere from a full day to a 3 day trip just getting there depending on how much the car cost. And then you have to get back home again.

So up to almost a week to go 300 miles....

Oh and then there's "minor" things like the lithium mines, those alone pretty much erases any "it's green and environmentally friendly" arguments completely.

Here's an interesting little read about the costs to the environment that comes from making those lithium-ion batteries Tesla and other car makers use. The article is a few years old but should still give a fairly good idea just how nasty those batteries are.

Don’t look so smug: Your Tesla might be worse for the environment than a gas car

So sure, during it's lifetime an electric car may technically be better for the environment then gas powered cars. But when you take into account the cost of building it and then taking care of the materials after it's sent to the scrapheap?

And just to make it worse, can we be sure the electricity we charge the batteries with are green? It might just as well come from nuclear plants, or some filthy old coal plant in eastern Europe or Germany...

Even if the car is a hybrid with a gas engine that charge the batteries it doesn't really make that much of a difference.

So really, there's not much that is environmentally friendly about electric cars at the moment. In some cases it's the complete opposite..

Oh and one last thing, does anyone want to guess what the lifetime is on those batteries? 5 to 10 years depending on how much you use the car, then they need to be replaced. Which is nowhere NEAR close to the lifetime of the car itself... And what would that cost you might ask? Well for a Prius it's 2500 to 3000 USD per battery module (labor cost not included) if i understood it right. And that fucking thing has a proper engine as well. How much do you think it'll cost to change batteries on cars like the Nissan Leaf that ONLY has batteries (and more of them)?

Can anyone actually justify that personal economic cost every 5 to 10 years on a normal workers salary?

Sorry i'll go away now..

 

[Wij]

Tesla recently updated their advice that the batteries would probably last longer than the original 10 years.

Also, in 10 years time those batteries will be a heck of a lot cheaper.

And this as regards Lithium:

The No Breakfast Fallacy: Why the Club of Rome was wrong about us running out of minerals and metals eBook: Tim Worstall: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

Anyway, I only do about 150 miles most weeks. I'll still have a petrol car for those rare occasions I need a long journey (not diesel, never again.)

 

[Gwadien]

I don't understand though.

Petrol powered cars are clearly a problem, and rather than praising governments for trying to find a fix, you're all criticising them.

Yes, I completely understand the issues with Lithium and the fact that the vast majority of our leccy is through fossil fuels anyway.

The problem is though, when people are so against the idea of electric cars, there's very little incentive for car companies to properly invest into making them.

I don't understand the problem with charging anyway - you go to a 'petrol station', you plug your car in, walk in grab a coffee and a snickers (because you all need a pair) and then wham, your car is charged, let's go!

Frankly, I'd be happier to spend all of our 'environment' problems on smaller achievable goals - for instance give massive incentives for companies to invest into battery technologies - address that problem so it causes as little issues to the planet as possible, and then we address the larger problems of 'how do we get our energy?' It seems pretty bizarre to me that we invest millions into building wind farms which provides (I've not checked the proper stats) but I'd imagine largely fuck all to the total energy output, but then we fill our cars with fossil fuels anyway?

There's a problem, whether you say it's destroying our planet, or we're gonna run out of the stuff. I'd rather see us get a gradual solution rather than leaving the problem to future generations. (IE, when I'm old)

 

[Raven]

I am with Scouse, I would love an electric car but they just aren't practical, at all. I fill up on average once every two weeks. I know that if I need to travel I can fill up anywhere, in minutes. If I felt like it I could drive up to Scotland tomorrow morning and be there mid afternoon.

Google says it is around 500 miles from my front door to Inverness and would take 8.5 hours. With an electric car it would take days. Having a petrol car as back up is not financially viable for most people, let alone space restraints.

I am also concerned about getting rid of them at the end of their workable life. A car that would be essentially uneconomical to keep going in just 10 years is not good enough. At least with a traditional non-electric car pretty much all of it can be recycled.

 

[Ctuchik]

Sure they probably can last longer then 10 years. But it would still depend on how much you used the car, how you drive it, when you recharge the batteries, how you recharge the batteries and any number of other things.

That's why they used the word "probably". Because there's no guarantee that they will.

And is the chance of not having to fork out 3000 USD plus labor cost every 5 to 10 years really a risk worth taking when it's based on a "probably" said by a company whose existence depends on us believing them?

And don't be so sure the batteries will drop massively in price either. Lithium isn't rare, but there aren't that many deposits around that are worth mining.

 

[fettoken]

Can't we come to an agreement that electric cars aren't for everyone right now, but fits the criteria for some. It's a good start, but not viable to legislate as a mass solution at the moment.

 

[Raven]

There is also the used market to consider. There wouldn't be one if the key component on a vehicle failed every 5 years. Many people rely on used cars and their obvious lower costs. Many cars keep going for 10, 15, 20 years in the used car market before they are eventually scrapped.

 

[Moriath]

I don't understand though.

Petrol powered cars are clearly a problem, and rather than praising governments for trying to find a fix, you're all criticising them.

Yes, I completely understand the issues with Lithium and the fact that the vast majority of our leccy is through fossil fuels anyway.

The problem is though, when people are so against the idea of electric cars, there's very little incentive for car companies to properly invest into making them.

I don't understand the problem with charging anyway - you go to a 'petrol station', you plug your car in, walk in grab a coffee and a snickers (because you all need a pair) and then wham, your car is charged, let's go!

Frankly, I'd be happier to spend all of our 'environment' problems on smaller achievable goals - for instance give massive incentives for companies to invest into battery technologies - address that problem so it causes as little issues to the planet as possible, and then we address the larger problems of 'how do we get our energy?' It seems pretty bizarre to me that we invest millions into building wind farms which provides (I've not checked the proper stats) but I'd imagine largely fuck all to the total energy output, but then we fill our cars with fossil fuels anyway?

There's a problem, whether you say it's destroying our planet, or we're gonna run out of the stuff. I'd rather see us get a gradual solution rather than leaving the problem to future generations. (IE, when I'm old)

The charging thing is an issue if
a) it takes longer than 10 mins to fully charge at a (electric station)
b) you dont live near where u have to park your car so you cant plug it into your own electric supply

I live 20 meters from the parking area and without the council etc putting in charging points round our parking area ( which are not allocated and many times we have to park on the road instead) then we have no way to charge our cars over night.

Im not saying the tech is bad. Its just not practical right now. and Issues need to be addressed before its enforced. PEtrol or Diesel are so much more liberating because of the infrastructure that we have now than electric is withhout a massive investment

 

[DaGaffer]

The way dealership in Norway are dealing with this is setting up a "holiday swap" scheme, so when you buy the car you sign up and of you need larger car for longer trip you bring in your electric car and they hand you the keys to something else until you get back

Seems like a sensible measure until range anxiety stops being an issue

BMW do that with the i3. There's a pack you can buy that gives you a 5-series x weekends a year.

There is also the used market to consider. There wouldn't be one if the key component on a vehicle failed every 5 years. Many people rely on used cars and their obvious lower costs. Many cars keep going for 10, 15, 20 years in the used car market before they are eventually scrapped.

I don't think any legislators give a crap about the used market; quite the reverse actually; forcing older cars off the road sooner rather than later seems to be the preferred route; which does make some sense given the percentage recyclability targets they've been forcing on the manufacturers.

 

[Tom]

Massive ballache. I'd be swapping most weekends.

Was in Wales last weekend, Lake District this, potentially Scotland the week after (where an electric car won't even get me *one way*).

I stand by what I said - they have to get me 300+ miles and a ten min refill or they can fuck off.


I want them to work, very much. But right now...

Well yes, but that's you. And probably me too, tbh. But the majority of the motoring public don't go any further than Auntie Doris's on a Sunday afternoon. They drive 5 miles to work, 5 miles back, 2 miles to the supermarket and that's it. On the odd occasion they need to do 200 miles, they're usually to be found in the middle lane of the motorway getting on everyone else's nerves. And for those people, given the amount of money they'll save in general, hiring a car with more range won't be an issue.

 

[Tom]

Oh and one last thing, does anyone want to guess what the lifetime is on those batteries? 5 to 10 years depending on how much you use the car, then they need to be replaced.

Er no, sorry. They last far longer than that. The battery on my hybrid is ten years old and works just fine. Mind you, how many miles can you reliably do on a modern diesel? 20,000 a year, after ten years, that's 200,000 miles. I wouldn't expect a set of diesel injectors on a Mondeo to last even half that distance, let alone the flywheel and clutch. Or the DPF too.

 

[Ctuchik]

I don't understand though.

Petrol powered cars are clearly a problem, and rather than praising governments for trying to find a fix, you're all criticising them.

I'm not criticizing the attempts at finding a solution. I'm criticizing the wildly wrong and far spread assumption that electric cars already are flat out better for the environment than petrol powered cars.

Will maybe be at one point, but we're far from there still.

 

[Gwadien]

I'm not criticizing the attempts at finding a solution. I'm criticizing the wildly wrong and far spread assumption that electric cars already are flat out better for the environment than petrol powered cars.

Will maybe be at one point, but we're far from there still.

For all of my short years of being alive on this planet, all I recall is how we're killing the planet, and we're using our finite resources VERY quickly, and in the 'future' this will have to change, otherwise we won't have a planet left.

Successive Governments have always pledged to do 'their part' in order to keep the hippies happy, but they're never truly committed to fixing our wrong doings, simply for economic reasons, it's far too much investment, so we'll continue to invest as little as possible until it comes to a stage where they say 'We're out of oil' or something - as I say, this isn't just an environmental argument, it's also about the economy, the oil running out without no long-term invested alternative is absolute suicide, it would be like a another revolution out of necessity, and they never work out well.

On this subject, it's about time we accepted more radical points of views, which may seem unrealistic, hence whilst I understand the means of generating electricity is questionable, it's a choice of;

Burn fuel -> Car goes broom

Means of generating electricity (20% or something green? - I'm probably making that up) -> Car goes broom.

In the long run with gradual means of producing electricity (which will be eventually forced upon us anyway) it's a step which is progressive, the only reason why people are hostile to it is because it's not economically beneficial.

I take my hat off to the Dutch for doing this, although they're not directly financially supporting this endeavour, it's giving car companies little choice but to adapt, consequently it means that they're probably causing alot of political pain to theirselves.

 

[Moriath]

For all of my short years of being alive on this planet, all I recall is how we're killing the planet, and we're using our finite resources VERY quickly, and in the 'future' this will have to change, otherwise we won't have a planet left.

Successive Governments have always pledged to do 'their part' in order to keep the hippies happy, but they're never truly committed to fixing our wrong doings, simply for economic reasons, it's far too much investment, so we'll continue to invest as little as possible until it comes to a stage where they say 'We're out of oil' or something - as I say, this isn't just an environmental argument, it's also about the economy, the oil running out without no long-term invested alternative is absolute suicide, it would be like a another revolution out of necessity, and they never work out well.

On this subject, it's about time we accepted more radical points of views, which may seem unrealistic, hence whilst I understand the means of generating electricity is questionable, it's a choice of;

Burn fuel -> Car goes broom

Means of generating electricity (20% or something green? - I'm probably making that up) -> Car goes broom.

In the long run with gradual means of producing electricity (which will be eventually forced upon us anyway) it's a step which is progressive, the only reason why people are hostile to it is because it's not economically beneficial.

I take my hat off to the Dutch for doing this, although they're not directly financially supporting this endeavour, it's giving car companies little choice but to adapt, consequently it means that they're probably causing alot of political pain to theirselves.

They told us we would be past peak oil and struggling for coal when i were in school in the eighties.

Things change. Opinions vary.