Tank faith!

[Treson]

Ok, there are 5000 billion tank fix threads, if you could lets condense the ideas here, keep your idea in a clean and easily readble format and most of all keep this thread bumped, the longer it is on the top and the more posts it contains, the more likely it will be payed attention to.

Sanya, as it stands us tanks are a dieing breed, most people like myself that rolled tanks thought of a tank to be exactly what the name suggests, strong as a tank, able to do a lot of damage and take a lot of damage, as it stands now, our damage output is in line, but us living for 4 seconds due to caster nukes for 600 damage isnt cutting it, and our lack of control over the battlefield is rediculous.

I posted once on here about taunt blades needed in RvR, for us to server the purpose of defending our mages and healers, but more is needed than just that.

In the average battle, i would say a tank lasts around 10 seconds if you are actually doing what you are supposed to do. The battle starts and just like in the movies and such, the "big guys with the swords and armor" run head on into battle, well as it stand now, using this way of thinking keeps you alive maybe 5 seconds, you run in, get nuked for 500 damage 3 times by some caster and your dead as a doornail, either that or we are mezzed, stunned, rooted, snared, or completely gang raped because the other tanks would rather take the route to get them more rps and stay back, which isnt meant for a tank.

Now spell crafting may very well fix this, but it also might not, prices will be through the roof im sure, and as tanks, we will by far spend the most cash on spell crafting easily, people like me, who are specced in celtic spear and lw are going to need to buy 3 weapons, and are going to probably end up buying a few sets of armor as spell crafting sets in and we find out whats good and whats not, so i dont see that highly effecting tanks for months to come.

As it stands, we have 0% control over what goes on in a medium to large scale battle, we have a little say in an 8 on 8 or something of that sort, but once the battle gets to 2 or 3 groups per side, we might as well not even be there, having every pet, spell, mez, stun, debuff, you name it thrown at us.

What i propose is some things i have gathered from other posts, to make us more usefull and more of a factor in battles.

For 1 we need base resistances, 15% for pure tanks (hero, warrior, armsman) 10% for light tanks (blademaster, mercenary, berserker) and 5% for secondary tanks (champion, paladin, thane, skald) and the reason i put them in the 5% is because they atleast have something else besides melee weapons. These bas resistances make sense in my mind, they will help us survive getting nailed by spells before we even get close to casters, but im sure casters will still be able to take us 1 on 1, which i guess they should have a chance of doing.

2nd off, we need a taunt blade, something to use to control the battlefield, right now we have no control over what happens to our casters and healers, which we should, i posted on another thread fully about it and go check it out for my thoughts on it.

3rd off, we need to have some way to kill our opponents without them running off, maybe a snare blade of some sort, as it stands now our styles use a ton of endurance, after a swing or 2 our opponent can just sprint off and we will never see them again, which is almost always the case, a snare blade (or for a more tank effect, maybe call it a cripple blade) will simply render our enemy from so easily getting away, i truly believe that any time a pure tank or light tank gets on someone into melee range, that person should have to fight, unless of course they have purge, which will enable them to run away.

Those are my suggestions, lets here others.

PS - KEEP THIS BUMPED, US TANKS NEED IT


I took this from the Vn boards, looks like i need to start a mage :/
I hope Goa is gonna drop the patch that makes mages = GODS.

 

[wuntvor]

I couldn't Agree more mate.

While I find RvR great fun, when it comes to large battles tanks end up playing a grass chewing role within 5-10 seconds, if they are performing there duty as a tank (running at the opposition casters/healer in order to wreek havoc and death). therefore all we are really effective for in RvR is as mobile door rams :sleeping:

Point 1 : Base lvl resistances, agreed, I spend quite abit of time trying to hunt out spirit resistance drops, ever so this only stands a small chance of ressisting mezz.

Point 2 : Taunt Blade, not sure how this would work but i asume in a simelar way to taunts against mobs.

Point 3 : As a shield User you do get Slam a long duration stun at lvl44, this does allow you to take out an opponent before they can run away, however if you don't spec for shield or your tank line does not allow for shield use without gimping your character you have no ability to stop/ slow an opponent.

Mezz purge will help, Spell crafting will allow us to improve our resistances in a fight, I mean a lvl 50 mob will resist a caster alot, a lvl 50 tank however is a totally different matter.

I rolled a tank for the same reasons as you, however I am now finding that my role xp hunting is VASTLY more important than my role in RvR (ie caster RP fodder and keep door hitter).

So yes changes coming up will help no doubt about that, but how many tanks out there are still gonna be around in RvR or will they have rolled alt casters and be using them instead.

Tread now bumped, and waiting for the flames to start, which I would hope they don't because for once this is a perfectly reasonable thread.

Wuntvor (4x Hero Draconis Alumni)

 

[inuyasha]

Hm, sorta a flame i guess

I do not agree to this "base resistance" thingys. To be a high resistance machine should indeed by hard to make, since mages would be completly overun if all level 50 heros on the server would have approx about 45% magic resistance after a month as level 50. Even minstrels would be underpower with this.

A tanks strenght IS the hp and defending properties, not the one to damage. All tank classes have a way to kill people once they come close, like a attack damage chain, the "stun" shield attacks, short or long duration, as well as 2'th tanks instantspells like slow and the like.

This "base resistance" idea of yours is on the other hand about to be dealt with, since when the realm abilities is up, you can get actually 12 more resist to all magical attacks, that stack with the max. In addition to this, i belive one of this realm abilities is able to break mezzes and/or increase the speed of the person using it, and thus render this a little less of an issue.

You do a important roll in rvr, even though you do not deal the damage, you do of course take alot of it. It takes time to kill a real tank, even with spells, and if this was spread among our casters instead of the tanks, the raid would have been a lost case. Most of the times you are messed however, might be case of minstrels, and this can be cured by getting more Nightshades up to the higher levels, since a rightly specced NS have more then a fair chanse against a minstrel, and also can uncover them at range with the instantblasts and/or normal ones.

Three main things will in other words increase the value of tank classes in the future, that is:
1. Better team work, with support from stealthers and healers around. (this becomes better every raid, no matter what we do about it or how good we become

2. The realm abilites when they come.

3. The spellcrafting when that come.

It seems the matter is beeing dealt with, but i do feel that including a base resist on tanks would be to overdo this alot, at least since it would partly ruin the upcomming pvp server alot.

Inuyasha: Tuatha de Dannan
Point Blank: Red dragons of wrath.
Iljiljijliiijilj: Clan Bearhawk

 

[Elric IA]

Usually one on one with a mage I tend to DD shout as this affects the spell casting. First hit is usually bladeturned then the next causes reasonable damage. trick is getting in close to them before they nuke you.

Mind you if BT does not work you tend to really hurt them. My DD was resisted last night on an orange con level 50 wizard but my str/con debuff was not and 2nd hit with style was enough to finish him off without him even casting on me (nearly 500 damage with the second hit).

I dont agree that it takes time to kill a tank with spells. Whilst I am a weak champ i often get one-two hitted with spells (some of those runemaster ones really hit hard).

Warden BT does not always save a blow getting through. Is it the same for mages?

My 2p worth

 

[Novamir]

I think tanks are fine. I have good fun long battles, and don't spend most of the time mezzed. I do a good amount of damage with spear and can take some too.

Caster's hurt a hell of a lot: mainly those which do are the darkness speccd runies and the fire wizzies. Solution: cap your fire and energy? or cold resistances. Currently I have 26% heat/cold and 14% energy.

It's about the way you play in RvR.. of course a tank can't solo. No class without speed and / or stealth can solo effectively imo.

Group with 1/2 bards and some high damage mages in RvR, and don't play like an alb, and you will have fun.

 

[Treson]

Novamir, we have fun now.. But wait to later patches when Mages get their Inzane aoe nukes, ive heard some mages managed to farm 70k rp from a raid..

This im getting from the US vn boards.. Many tanks have quitted their game/char becaus of this.

But you always hear that ppl will quite ore leave etc. but rarely heppens as often as they say.

 

[*Tusk*]

I agree Treson as it stand's i aint enjoying rvr @ moment and since i hit 50 have been playing alt's for most part...

 

[Gorguss]

Beeing mezzed sux, but that's just how it is I suppose.

Just a small note: LW specc 50 back attack has the same stun as the 42(or was it 44) use anytime shield attack. Spellcasters often stand still to cast the spell anyway so you can run around them.

I can confirm that a tank, especially chimps, can be killed super-fast if a mage really wan't to kill yah

 

[Odon]

From a Hero's perspective...

I Love Rvr - especially in smaller raids. I find the larger raids poor as due to Lag I tend to be on full hp's one minute and dead the next.

Smaller Raids:
I have found even as a Lev 45 I can quiet easily handle 2 invaders. It is all down to who you take out first. Give me a Mezzer or Caster and I can kill him in 2-3 hits. That leaves the other a little more vunerable and tbh I can soon take him - leaving me with no hunt and little hp.

The problem always comes when you are mezzed first or you have 3-4 targets. But I can't see how that is an issue that can be sorted.

Resisitance:
I agree sort of - but why not just make sure you get resistance items? Or take a Warden with you? (Gives Speed, Heals, Rez & Resistance!).

Taunt:
Unlike a mob, players have a brain - they will simply just still take out the mezzer/nuker first. I know I do.

Large Battles - the role of the Tank.
It isn't to charge in head first and scream "Rez"... The best roles are:

1: Stay close enough to main team to defend them eg: why do all our tanks rush to the front leaving Casters so exposed at the back & front. Be careful of area mez tho!

2: Move to front and simply aim to take out the mezer or casters! .. how? ... sneak round the side or just stay focused on 1 caster. A group of 8 invaders can be easily taken with 5-6 hibs if the casters/mezzers are disabled.

3: When running to battle why does everyone insist on straight lines using stick? I have seen so many whole groups wiped out due to this ... all it takes is 1 tank to not get mezzed and they will keep the battle going until mez wears off.. ok they might die - but group should survive. Odon will often be found actually running alongside the main group - to the point that invaders nr ligen often miss me in their area mez - that's when my fun begins ! Nothing better than a mezzer exposed and thinking he/she is safe.

What does annoy me is the development that other classes get. I am still not convinced that as a spec blades is worth anything - I currently am so versitile with a spec of blades 40, shield 35 (raising to 42), parry 39, cs 20. TBH a hero only needs blades to get taunt & detaunt, I end up switching to Spear after my short stun (not slam). What am I finding .. well:

With shield & parry high, not much gets through to me with me wearing & wielding shield & blade - which means .. well basically last night I could handle 2 trolls (con orange) and 1 Norse (Con Yellow) solo until my team arrived - ok I had to use hunt ability, but I survived long enough for my team of stealthers to arrive. If I switch to Spear - ok I do more damage, but there is no way I would have survived that confrontation. Where did this happen upplands - my favourite hunting ground (I want a stealthy! ).

Maybe this is my basic way of looking at it? but it seems to be a pattern of my rvr since I started to spec in Spearo ... which has been a short time (so forgive me if this is not accurate).

Overall: Hero's are I think the most sorted class, champs are getting there as are bm's - tho I have not played either.

 

[Treson]

True Odon, we shouldent stick we should manage to follow eachother. But how many manage todo that? Other then Odon i see very few at all who manages to follow his group in other ways then stick.

Mosly ends up with splitted group and dying even faster.

Bigger RVR groups are almost hopeless too, some listen but not all. Then suddenly ppl wants to take command themself and run after something, which makes the groups die bye a zerg mosly.

 

[foolou]

mage view

You may need to understand what rvr is like for a mage.

In small encounter situations usually the group with first mezz wins. If I'm in the group that gets mezzed i'm the first one to die.
Usually within 2 blows of a LWtank or 2 spells from any damagecaster.

Now ... why do I go to rvr if I'm such an easy target ?

Cause I get in reward for that physical weakness some abilities to deal damage. That's only fair.
With your proposed base-resistance i would loose any use in rvr.

You die too fast in rvr ? .. get up your resistances and maybe a shield and you'll see that casters are a lot less efficient.
The only time I mezzed alpha first i couldn't kill him because he has very high cold-resistance ( so all don't use your cold-spells against him)

To those 70k rp : that mage was definitly not grouped using a big zerg of hibs as shield for himself. So it was the hib-zerg that allowed him to farm rp not because he is such a strong char.
On his own he wouldn't have killed anything cause some infi/sb would have smashed him in no time.

Maybe our aoe-spells do a lot of damage but without tanks to stand/run in front they are useless because we are seen and attacked and very soon dead.
Build groups with mages and you'll get your fair share of the rp too.
I never refuse groups in rvr. Maybe some lamers do.

 

[old.giriam]

something i would really like to see is collision-detection. I dont think tanks are the least bit gimped (mez works on all classes you know) but i think it would make the game much cooler for all.

Imagine 2 groups discovering eachother and doing a full frontal assault, the tanks clash together in the middle of the fight trying to chop their way through to the enemy casters, while the casters are franticly nuking the other groups healers.

well you get the idea. a tank could actually tank with some collision-detection.

G