Sword and Shield Armsmen

[krait]

In regard to the "fixed" block/parry rates in patch 1.53 I'm wondering what to spec to for my S/S armsman.

I've got 3 ideas for s/s/p which are 50/50/28 , 50/42/39 or 44/44/44 .
Do any other armsmen have these stats and ,if yes ,how much blocking/parry do you do in PvE ( only comparison to future RvR rates :/ )

After trawling through a dozen pages of the VN boards without finding any decent info (apart from one guy who said that high parry and shield with RAs meant he could solo red succubus good for cash farming if true) ,I hoped to get some more "reliable" input from anyone with similar specs.

 

[slapmesilly..]

reds?!?!

OMGGGG NERF ARMSMEN!!






tbh, the difference between an S&B and a Pole Armsman is so big they're 2 different classes, 1's for offense (Pole) the other's for Defense (S&B).

Don't don't choose 1 template to be über, choose one that fits your playstyle..
(god this has been said like a million times already, why do I have to repeat it? )

 

[Murcalumis]

Krait, I'm specced 50/50/28.

In PvE, I really block like a mad thing. I remember once in a tree group at 38 or so (asides from being crowd control there!) nearly the whole group had been wiped out, and I had no endurance left as well as no life. I blocked about 5 times in a row, and the thing died before me. Yellows can bearly hit you with the shield and parry, and I'd think if you chucked some mastery of blocking and parrying on top of that spec, not much would get through.

As for the soloing reds, well, I couldn't solo a witherwoode with my dress on (not surprisingly, perhaps) nor fully armoured. But, it was close. Maybe with some MoB and MoP you'd be able to, but downtime would be high. Oranges aren't much of a problem (as long as they're weak to slash, or weak against plate).

Anyway, there you go!

 

[Yussef]

50/50/28 is better imo

You will get Brutalise at 50 shield which is low end cost, engage and force a block then smack em up.

 

[krait]

The other thing that i was thinking is that when fighting dual-wielders a higher parry rate would be an asset,so would lowering sword a few points and putting them into parry be worthwhile.
Is the damage output all that great between 45/46 and 50 ? also is diamond slash worthwhile ?

p.s. no way was i even contemplating going polearm.

 

[old.windforce]

i really like my 39 slash, 42 shield, 24 parry, 44 pole template
i can do defense very well and switch to offensive after slam
it is a big surprise if you have a 1 on 1 with some nasty middie and after slam you get out the big stick and poleaxe the sucker for big damage

 

[old.Emma]

ive always thaught of 44/44/44 to be the best defensive template around, with items all 3 of those will be over 50.. and we all know how much a 50 shield spec tank blocks imagine 50 parry as well.. to give you an idea.. in a group earlier with an armsman with 48 parry.. he parried 6-7 times in a row against a Ambassador whats his name in the princess room.. that is nutts tbh

 

[Murcalumis]

Originally posted by krait
The other thing that i was thinking is that when fighting dual-wielders a higher parry rate would be an asset,so would lowering sword a few points and putting them into parry be worthwhile.
Is the damage output all that great between 45/46 and 50 ? also is diamond slash worthwhile ?

p.s. no way was i even contemplating going polearm.

More than worthwhile, I would have thought. Although, I think that the rate that you'll parry against, say two people, is half than it would be if you were just facing one. Whereas, with a large shield, you don't get any penalties till you have four attacks per round. I could be talking bollocks here, of course.

In my opinion, Diamond Slash isn't worth it at all. Not at all. I don't use it, I think some people do. It has higher endurance cost than Amethyst and dosen't seem to do more damage to me. I might do some tests to work it out later, just because.. well, I'm interested. Yes, I will do some tests later! Hmph!

 

[Murcalumis]

Wellity, wellity! Tests done as promised! I decided I'd trek out to Sauvage, and hunt the various trees around there to get some evidence. Let me just start off with an introduction, and the ins and outs of my character:

'[20:00:55] @@You say, "Rar!"
[20:02:05] @@You say, "Well, firstly... I'm Vincible. I'm an Armsman in his 50th season. My spec is 50+2 slash 50+2 shield 28+2 parry."

[20:02:57] @@You say, "I'm wearing my epic armour, and unbuffed (as I am now) have 1474 hps -- oops need to visit the healer (money-sucking thieves!)"
[20:03:24] @@You say, "I've got 200 strength, 168 constituion and 143 dexterity and 90 quickness."

[20:03:56] @@You say, "I have tireless, my only passive realm ability at the moment."

[20:04:08] @@You say, "I'm trying to work out whether Diamond Slash is worth using."

[20:04:40] @@You say, "The fatigue cost on it is high, opposed to Amethyst's medium."
[20:05:09] @@You say, "Apart from that they are the same (on paper). Diamond must be used after Amethyst."
[20:05:36] @@You say, "Firstly, I'll just get my damage caps with them both on a grey tree here in Sauvage (because that's useful information)"
[20:06:33] @@You say, "Oh, by the way, I'm using a Shimmering Arcanium Sabre as made by Hendrick (woo! Go Hendrick!) oh 97% qual and a 99% Hendrick Duskwood large shield."
[20:07:09] @@You say, "The effective dps od my sword is 14.6 dps (oops - better visit the smith!)"
[20:07:22] @@You say, "Anyway, onto the caps."

[20:07:35] You perform your Amethyst Slash perfectly. (+110)
[20:07:35] You attack the gold oaken fellwood with your sword and hit for 292 (+59) damage!

[20:07:38] You perform your Diamond Slash perfectly. (+142)
[20:07:38] You attack the gold oaken fellwood with your sword and hit for 345 (+60) damage!

[20:08:17] @@You say, "As you can see, the cap for Amethyst is 292 and Diamond is 345.'

So anyway, that's that done. The cap for Amethyst is is 292 and Diamond is 345.

After this I moved onto Knotted Fellwoods:

'[20:12:33] @@You say, "Okay, I'm now at the Knotted Fellwoods which are blue. I'm going to pull three to start with.. <looks about for shadowblades> OK, here it goes! INC!"'

So I pulled three. This is the breakdown of those three fights.

Knotted Fellwoods

Fight one:-

Number of Amethysts performed: 3
Total damage: 654
Average Damage Per Attack: 218

Number of Diamonds performed: 2
total Damage: 566
Average Damage Per Attack: 283

Difference in damage on average per swing (in Diamond Slash's favour): +65


Fight two:-

Number of Amethysts Performed: 3
Total Damage: 673
Average Damage Per Attack: 224.333

Number Of Diamonds Performed: 2
Total Damage: 525
Average Damage Per Attack: 262.5

Difference in damage on average per swing (in Diamond Slash's favour): +38.167


Fight three:-

Number of Amethysts Performed: 3
Total Damage: 626
Average Damage Per Attack: 208.666

Number of Diamonds Performed: 3
Total Damage: 788
Average Damage Per Attack: 262.666

Difference in damage on average per swing (in Diamond Slash's favour): +54

Total average difference between Amethyst and Diamond: 53.389

So.. quite a difference on the blues. On average, every Diamond Slash did 53.389 points of damage more than any Amethyst slash (over the three fights that is). I never remembered the damage being that different, so moved onto find harder things to test.

20:18:25] @@You say, "Okay. Here are some Gnarled Fellwoods - yellow con."
[20:18:43] @@You say, "I'll pull three.. (because I need to xp, FFS!)"

[note, I actually end up pulling four, because I can't count]

This is the breakdown of these fights:

Gnarled Fellwoods

Fight one:-
Number of Amethysts performed: 6
Total Damage: 959
Average Damage Per Attack: 159.833

Number of Diamonds Performed: 3 (I did Amethyst twice in a row by accident, and didn't have enough endurance at the end.)
Total Damage: 515
Average Damage Per Swing: 171.666

Difference in damage on average per swing (in Diamond Slash's favour): +11.833

Fight two:-

Number of Amethysts performed: 4
Total Damage: 765
Average Damage Per Attack: 191.25

Number of Diamonds Performed: 4
Total Damage: 817
Average Damage Per Swing: 204.25

Difference in damage on average per swing (in Diamond Slash's favour): +13

Fight three:-

Number of Amethysts performed: 4
Total Damage: 734
Average Damage Per Attack: 183.5

Number of Diamonds Performed: 4
Total Damage: 896
Average Damage Per Swing: 224

Difference in damage on average per swing (in Diamond Slash's favour): 40.5

Fight four:-

Number of Amethysts performed: 5
Total Damage: 915
Average Damage Per attack: 183

Number of Diamonds performed: 3
Total Damage: 647
Average Damage per Swing: 215.666

Difference in damage on average per swing (in Diamond Slash's favour): 32.666

Total Average difference between Amethyst and Diamond: 24.499

So, a significantly lower differnce. In fact, over half as much. So, is it that as the mob gets higher the difference gets less? I don't really see why it should, but it would explain the fact that I couldn't remember much difference on the highs mobs in DF.

Oh, just a little intermission. I did a block test on a Gnarled to see how much I block an even con without engaging. These were the results!

'[20:24:09] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you block the blow!
[20:24:11] @@You say, "I'm not attacking."
[20:24:13] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you block the blow!
[20:24:17] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you block the blow!
[20:24:21] The gnarled fellwood hits your hand for 68 (-8) damage!
[20:24:25] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you block the blow!
[20:24:30] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and misses!
[20:24:30] @@You say, "Oh bugger, got to go afk. Back in 10 minutes."
[20:24:33] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you block the blow!
[20:24:38] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you block the blow!
[20:24:42] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you block the blow!
[20:24:46] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you block the blow!
[20:24:50] The gnarled fellwood hits your leg for 85 (-10) damage!
[20:24:54] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you block the blow!
[20:24:58] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you block the blow!
[20:25:03] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you block the blow!
[20:25:07] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you block the blow!
[20:25:11] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you parry the blow!
[20:25:15] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you parry the blow!
[20:25:19] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you parry the blow!
[20:25:24] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you parry the blow!
[20:25:28] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you block the blow!
[20:25:32] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and misses!
[20:25:36] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you parry the blow!
[20:25:40] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and misses!
[20:25:44] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and misses!
[20:25:49] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you block the blow!
[20:25:53] The gnarled fellwood hits your hand for 58 (-7) damage!
[20:25:56] @@You say, "Oh bugger this, already.. he couldn't kill me if he took ten years. You get the idea!"
[20:25:57] The gnarled fellwood attacks you and you block the blow!'

Anyway, that's pretty much it. I know this was a long post, but I hope it helps, Krait. I mean, taking Slash to 50 to get a style that will do on average 25 damage per hit (for more endurance) on even con mobs, or much more parry, or poleram? I know what I'd go for, anyway.

 

[Murcalumis]

Erm, and just to add to that, every Gnarled Fellwood took 8 swings to kill (apart from one that took 9!) with Amethyst Slash and Diamond Slash. I tried one where I only did Amethyst Slashes and I killed it after 8 swings, with about enough endurance left for another 3 swings; equalling 11 swings.

The average damage per swing for Amethyst slash over the four Gnarled Fellwood fights was 179.395 damage. 25 more damage was done with Diamond Slash than Amethys Slash. If you're fighting someone, that would take more than 8 swings to be killed (Diamond Slash and Amethyst Slash swings) you're going to be losing out if you use Diamond Slash. You'll get 25 more damage each swing, but you'll be out of endurance after 8 swings. You'll have got 100 more damage (25x4) but if this thing is going to take more than that to kill, you'll get an additional 538 damage if you can get three more Amethyst Slash styles in. Of course, if the fight is going to be over in three swings, you're losing out if you use Amethyst Slash, because if you kill it in 7 swings, you're not going to need to worry about running out of endurance.

Erm.. I'm rambling a bit here, but basically, if you think the fight is going to last a long time, that's when you should definetly be using Amethyst Slash, whereas if it's going to be over in a few seconds, may as well use Diamond Slash to get the most amount of damage that you can get in. When Paladins get endurance regain, it'll be better to use this, I should think. Until then, I don't think there's much point. And besides, in RvR it's quite hard to get it off all the time, due to the chaos.

<pants and looks about> What? I answered the question, damnit!

 

[SoulFly Amarok]

Bling Blang Blong.

I would go for 50 slash 50 shield 28 parry.

About vincibles damagestuff:

Your cap is affected by:

Weapons Spd.
Quickness.
Weap spec line i.e Slash.
base strenght + item bonus strenght (buffs add weaponskill, which decreases variance) i.e 90base str + 75from items @ lvl 50 would be 165 :u

edit: a typo.
edit: Kratt, isn't the block "fix" in 1.52 ?

 

[sendar]

well..

Damn u...
I was totaly happy with my 50/50/28 template untill u posted. (im at 46 now) hehe Well... visit this website:

http://www.darkcovenant.net/daoc/defcalc.html

It lets you calculate the total chance to block. I calculate with items about a total of 45% (ish) chance to block on my 50/50/28 which im happy with. with a 28/50/50 template itl be 51% (ish) chance to block, is an extra 6% chance to block worth loosing all that damage?

Im gonna stay with 50/50/28, even though diamond slash may not be worth it... it still gives u a higher base damage with amethyst. and after that slam is pulled off... u only got those 8ish seconds to get as much damage in as you can

Anyway, at 46 im 46/46/18 (I think) and its funny when against a blue, almost invincible. Against even cons I do block alot, I can happily solo pigmeys and often I come out without being hit once.

anyway, more food for thought

BTW, its 1.53 that block n parry is fixed... so still have a while to wait yet :/

edit: Typo's ... Is monday mornin k?

 

[Yussef]

An advantage of 50 shield isnt just more blocking, it's the style it offers, Brutalise requires a block and long duration stuns the enemy, also it costs less endurance.

 

[sendar]

oops

I stand corrected...

"Behind the scenes melee rules changes. We have changed two separate "under-the-hood" game mechanics to make melee combat more fun. One was to remove the level-based "to hit" modifier, and the other was to change the way the game calculates how many players are in combat with each other at once. These sound like small changes, but they will both let you hit more often (in the case of the first), and parry/block much more often (in the case of the second). The combination will mean that you will live longer, and thus, deal more damage. "

Thats in the patch notes for 1.52... I always thought this was in 1.53, looks like I was wrong

 

[Flimgoblin]

heh they tried to fix it in 1.52... and failed

patch notes for 1.53

"- Found and fixed a bug that was causing players to not evade, parry and block in RvR at the same rate that they were parrying/blocking/evading against monsters. All characters who evade, block, and/or parry should now see themselves parrying/blocking/evading much more often in RvR."

 

[sendar]

lol

heh, a patch to fix a patch that fixed a bug

wonder if they have any relation to microsoft....

 

[Murcalumis]

Originally posted by SoulFly Amarok

About vincibles damagestuff:

Your cap is affected by:

Weapons Spd.
Quickness.
Weap spec line i.e Slash.
base strenght + item bonus strenght (buffs add weaponskill, which decreases variance) i.e 90base str + 75from items @ lvl 50 would be 165 :u

Yes, I know that... but I thought it useful to know how much those styles could potentially hit for (roughly, obviously different things will affect how much each person can hit for).

Originally posted by Sendar

Damn u...
I was totaly happy with my 50/50/28 template untill u posted. (im at 46 now) hehe

I'm not trying to discourage this spec at all, in fact, I really do love this spec. I don't think I'll respec at all (unless I wanted to try out polerams -- but that will all depend on the fixes to block and parry later on). I was mearly telling Krait that I thought Diamond Slash wasn't worth going for, really as you'd never use it much.

Spec whatever you want and be happy with it. I was just interested to see the difference in damage between the two of them so did some tests!

 

[old.Emma]

well according to that defensespec calcualator thingy posted up top, 44 shield/44 parry has an extra 3-4% chance to block/parry over 50 shield/28 parry... so i know what spec im going for

 

[ric_zero]

Originally posted by Murcalumis I mean, taking Slash to 50 to get a style that will do on average 25 damage per hit.

*cough* The difference is larger than those 25 - if we take it as statistically sound in the first place .

You forgot the fact, that Amethyst wil do more damage if you put more points in Slashing .

Thank you for your post (log) and your work. I wish more people would present proof for their statements.

 

[old.Hendrick]

[20:06:33] @@You say, "Oh, by the way, I'm using a Shimmering Arcanium Sabre as made by Hendrick (woo! Go Hendrick!) oh 97% qual and a 99% Hendrick Duskwood large shield."

Thanks, that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside :wub:

 

[mirieth]

Hendrick, you've gone soft in your time away from DAoC :touch:

 

[old.Hendrick]

Not soft enough not to slap your little bum when I am back!

 

[mirieth]

:uhoh: run awaaaaaay!
I'll set Yussef the Saracen Paladin on yer.. y'know... :whip:

 

[old.Hendrick]

Bah, I've known Yussef when you still peed your iron pants!

 

[old.windforce]

did a mahr solo when i uberdinged
S + s rules pve

 

[Moody]

Originally posted by old.Emma
well according to that defensespec calcualator thingy posted up top, 44 shield/44 parry has an extra 3-4% chance to block/parry over 50 shield/28 parry... so i know what spec im going for

Thats indeed true, but don't forget that when you guard someone, you block for him, but you cannot parry an attack for someone else. A true defensive and teamfriendly spec will still be 50 shield

 

[DocWolfe]

my thrust armswoman will be 44 thrust 50 sheild 37 parry

 

[Murcalumis]

Originally posted by old.Hendrick


Thanks, that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside :wub:

<bearhugs Hendrick>

Hurry back, you.. Myste's riding crop is gathering dust.. <eeks and hides from Myste>

 

[Murcalumis]

Originally posted by old.Hendrick
Bah, I've known Yussef when you still peed your iron pants!

Mirieth still pees his iron pants.

 

[old.Emma]

Originally posted by Moody


Thats indeed true, but don't forget that when you guard someone, you block for him, but you cannot parry an attack for someone else. A true defensive and teamfriendly spec will still be 50 shield

true, but then with items you can get 50 easily.. and if you have a mob attacking you as well, you can still block and parry for yourself.. so you still have the 46% chance to block/parry mobs hitting you but only 41% chance to block for someone else...