Stupidity of auctions for Masterpieces

[Glottis_Xanadu]

What I wonder about the crafters.
You guys no longer xp on your crafts, so I assume that you only craft to order.
This leads me to conclude you guys are all screwing over the customers, who orderd some crafted piece at 99% qua. So of you go to make it, and meanwhile you make a 100% qua "masterpiece". I then also assume, that unless he is your friend (for some this would not matter anyway, gold is gold) he will not get the 100% qua piece, but you will keep crafting untill you get another 99% qua to give to him, and go off to auction the 100% for a lot of cash. Basically, screwing this person over.

Or would this be a wrong interpretation?
Regards, Glottis

 

[Khalen]

I wouldn't be surprised if they did it

 

[--Eraser--]

hm? whats the matter? when i order a 99% item and got a fair and fixed price for it, its fair to me when the crafter makes a 100% qual item in the first try and keeps it then going for another try to make me my 99% one...just fair.

another situation is the pay-per-try-order...the customer cant look over the shoulder of the crafter and just has to believe what happens there i guess...

 

[statix]

From their point of view .
They have given exactly that which was
ordered a 99% quality weapon , I
would be certain that they never even
mention the 100% , let alone give it to
them.

Which in some ways is shit , yeah but
you know so what, I tried to craft for a
while , had this great plan to be the
Best Weaponcrafter (this was when Kiarre was on about 700 , id say, ages ago ) but it is such a B***H to craft
to 300 let alone to 1000 , it would drive a
person crazy , thats why every now and again you get these crazy crafter sales,
its the old crafting injury coming back to haunt them and they go nuts!!

At the end of the day, I dont mind paying
a little extra for a crafted weapon because you know what
ITS NOT REAL MONEY + they rock

 

[old.Odysseus]

There is, and has always been, a lot of turmoil on this subject; crafters making money on friends and realm mates.

As for the 'screwing over' part, I sell a quality, not a number of retries. When a customers orders a given quality, that is the quality I deliver and that is the quality for which he will pay.
This way, I feel no obligation to give the customer the MP I happen to make while crafting him e.g. a 98%.
Were I crafting by retrying, I would naturally be obliged (by my definition of crafting by retry) to give him the MP for whatever price we agreed.
It all comes down to the crafters policies, which imo must be formalized and written on paper (I have my policy in the below link). Changing policy as it suits you would be screwing over the customers.

As for the money crafters make, it is my firm belief that anyone that puts his effort and time into gathering the funds, skilling high, spending time on customers etc. etc. should have the right to earn a profit.
This profit will at any time be decided by the market, just as it is in real life.

Long post, conclusion:
A fixed and formalized policy must be publicly available for a crafter to be trustworthy.

Edit:
One additional note; I guess it all comes down to how highly you value the money in DAoC - those little 1's and 0's you move in the database when paying the crafter.
Afterall, there is some effort in gathering the money.

 

[Draylor]

If your buying a crafted item for a fixed price/fixed quality deal then this issue doesnt arise.

If your paying per retry until your desired quality is reached then agree with the crafter in advance what happens with 100% items.

Its possible that these 100% quality items that are auctioned are created while trying to create some 99% 'stock'.

If you dont trust the crafter dont order on a pay-per-retry deal.

 

[josh_dk]

I totally agree with Ody's reply to this thread.

If somebody gets an agreed upon price for a certain quality, why are we debating wether the crafter should give him something better?

All the sales I have had for the L45+ stuff has been at a fixed price for a fixed quality.

This way I take all the risk and spend a lot of time to make the 99% stuff (or MP)

If I lose money making the item, I won't ask the customer for more money.

If I make a masterpiece I get to keep it (or sell it to somebody else rather).

If you want to have the chance for a masterpiece for a low price, all you have to do is pay per retry.

But then you will offcourse have to trust the crafter when he tells you "sorry try no. 75 was also 96%".

Thats a little hard, when each retry might cost u 100+g or whatever.

So the best way for everybody is to have fixed prices for fixed quality.

This actually eliminates the possibility of some dubious crafter cheating the customer.

I fail to see how this is "screwing this person over".

 

[Pin]

As soon as I am able to, I'll be moving my prices fully to pay by quality as the hassle of doing pay-by-retry just isn't worth it a lot of the time.

Pay-by-retry just comes down to trust too much, making a 99% for someone has comes out on the first and second try for me so far, I have also gone 10 tries before making a 99. That works out at over 100% difference in the final cost of the item, and some people in the game just don't have the ability to trust the word of the crafter when they say how many attempts it took.

So next week I should be able to give fixed prices for 98 and 99% weapons of all types (although I won't have all types in stock for a while) and be able to deliver them at an average price to all customers. Therefore people won't be paying for other people's good luck. Masterpieces will continue to be auctioned (okay, so I have only made 1 masterpiece, and it's not gone yet) for the time being.

This is how I have always planned to do things, but for the first week I have not had any cash to cover the randomness, at least that is getting a bit easier now.

After that, the only pay-by-retry I'll be doing is for guild members and friends who I know I can trust and I know trust me (random, sarcastic, non-trusting people like Glottis can pay the off-the-shelf price or go elsewhere).

 

[Jiggs]

I think what glottis probably means is if you order by retry method??

If i order a 99% and a 100% pops out I have no claim over it.

However if i go to a crafter and they say well its xxxg +xxg for each retry and a 100% pops say on the 4th time I would be pretty pissed of if they kept it...

 

[Pin]

Oh, and if you want to know how I got my 1 single masterpiece Sabre, it came while I was making a pay-by-retry order for a Jambiya. I clicked on the wrong quickbar and made a Sabre hilt. Then over an hour later after I had finished the order (yes, 12 retries for 2 Jambiyas takes well over an hour) I finished off the Sabre and it popped out as 100%.


My choices are to keep it, give it away within my guild (which is what I would ideally do if I could afford it) or auction it between everyone else so you pay what you want.

Up to you what you think/believe, but quite frankly, after sitting up half the night for 3 nights doing retry orders until my eyes bleed does not put me in a good mood for people that don't have the ability to trust someone whose been playing this game for nearly 12 months, making a lot of friends and hopefully being thought of as a trustworthy person by the people I play with.

Regards,
Pin

 

[old.Odysseus]

That would depend on the crafters policy Jiggs.

When I crafted by retry (2 weeks total), my policy was that the customer would order a quality and give me a number of retries.
I would stop at the first item equal to or higher than the set quality and he would pay for the actual number of retries.
This because it was his money paying for the stuff, not mine.

Again; different crafters, different policies (and morals).

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Jiggs
I think what glottis probably means is if you order by retry method??

If i order a 99% and a 100% pops out I have no claim over it.

However if i go to a crafter and they say well its xxxg +xxg for each retry and a 100% pops say on the 4th time I would be pretty pissed of if they kept it...

When I make pay-by-retry orders, the customer gets the best product that pops out in the number of attempts they pay for. Whether that is 98, 99, 100, whatever. So far I haven't had a 100% come out. I state this before I take the order. I also tell them not to expect a 100% item at all, as the chance of getting one is small. You might be lucky, so far I haven't.

As far as I know that's also the way any respectable crafter will deal with pay-by-retry orders. That's how Kiarra always worked, that's how Mishy works and that's how I am currently working. But still people complain. They don't get thier 99% in 5 attempts, therefore we must be screwing them over, they don't get a 100% at all, therefore we must have kept one for ourselves, etc, etc.


Anyway, prices by quality coming up...

 

[Draylor]

Jiggs: Ask them in advance if youve any doubt about how theyll handle this. If you dont like what they say find someone else.

The days of there being only 1 person able to handle any crafting orders are over. There is no reason to agree to someones terms/pricing if you dont agree with them.

 

[old.Kiarra]

Whenever I have crafted, I have alwasy tried to show each retry that pops out and will still do so now. I prefer clients to see everything and where their hard earnt cash has gone. Its only fair.

I have always tried to be as transparent as possible, letting everybody see what has been crafted.

Now though Im just crafting for fun, and if you happen to see me at CWS I will probably make what you would like, however Im just gonna occaisionally make a few, see what pops out and sell as precrafted. See http://forums.barrysworld.com/showthread.php?threadid=39167&referrerid=18507

 

[Belomar]

Glottis, you seem to be very bitter and untrusting, and furthermore, you also seem intent on taking this out on the rest of us. All (and I mean ALL) your recent posts have been negative. Please stop whining.

 

[Negura`]

What Belomar said

 

[Tranquil-]

Can't agree more with Belomar.

 

[Tleilax]

solution for pay per retry would come from goa. There should be a counter. When the person orders an item the crafter do the

/countercraft on command this msg is shown in main chat so that the peep ordering see this. When the desired quality is reached crafter types the /countercraft off

and the retries i shown on the last item made when u do shift-i

this would remove all doubts bout how many retries the crafter has done.

could work, now just tell the game programmers to implement this

Regards

 

[Pin]

Solution is everyone pay an average price:

http://forums.barrysworld.com/showthread.php?threadid=39191

 

[Kagato.]

Personally as a customer i'd prefer to pay-per-retry for a 99% no matter how many retries it took if theres a *chance* a MP might pop up, but naturally even if the MP came up on the 2nd or 3rd go i'd want it, as im paying for the retries.

I once ordered an Arcanium plate helm from yvresse, the cap style as I hate the full helms, he only had enough material for one go at it on him, and it came up as a 100% MP 1st and only try, hows that for luck gave him some bonus G for a job well done naturally.

Now though Im just crafting for fun, and if you happen to see me at CWS I will probably make what you would like

/em Starts camping Cornwall station for the elusive Kiarra™ mob to spawn.

 

[old.Kantz]

</e is just happy to have highskill crafters at all - and so should everyone else be>

- People should stop picking on people whom spend countless of hours crafting for OUR needs.
- If people dont like it, then dont order from them. Simple as that!

 

[nanorch]

Glottis m8, though I know you not I have read most of your posts
on this topic over the last weeks/months.

I dont understand what your anti-crafter profiteering vendetta is based on m8. Crafting is tedious, dull, boring, monotonous, tiresome, repetitive, dull, heartbreaking, frustrating, boring, banal, dismal, abysmal, tedious, lackluster, dull ..........getting the picture?

sorry for caps now.....

THESE GUYS DESERVE EVERY RED CENT THEY MAKE

imo.

without attempting to snipe you in anyway, if you do resent high price charging perhaps you could consider crafting for yourself? but I warn you its tedious, dull, boring, monotonous, tiresome, repetitive, dull, heartbreaking...............

mmm btw, If any tailor does happen to produce AF102+ qua 200%+ full suit (robes) with 1000 radius auto proc'ing DD of at least 1000dmg, in black dye pls, do PM me ingame pls

Oh, and, yep Statix, its not real money...........

And what's a 1000+ crafter gonna do if he makes shedloads of gold? Kit out his main and alts fairly cheaply? Loads of G still left?
Invest in spellcrafting/alchemy? Make more gold? Then what? Buy a Lexus?

Support your local crafter I say! Donate to help them develop their craft, then perhaps you'll get fine prices when you need to buy new items. God knows, but I don't, how they do it anyway!

 

[Glottis_Xanadu]

Originally posted by Belomar
Glottis, you seem to be very bitter and untrusting, and furthermore, you also seem intent on taking this out on the rest of us. All (and I mean ALL) your recent posts have been negative. Please stop whining.

Hmm, I was not even slagging anybody off. This was actually a pretty constructive thread till your comment came about, but your IQ was negatively surpassed by Negura I just wanted to discuss this.
Jiggs explained it a bit better in the end than I did. I did mean on a try/retry basis. I agree with the fixed price, no argument there.
Regards, Glottis

 

[Mishy]

Well, i believe that if a crafter creates a MP on a pay per retry order, then the customer gets it. If they create a MP on Quality based pricing then the crafter keeps it for Auction - As i do pay-per-retry pricing you wont see auctions from me

As for integrity about crafters "keeping MP's for themselves" simply have to ask the few people who have got MP items, last couple nights for example, Reya got MP Jambiya first try, for cost of 350g - Jellybaby, got 3 MP Stillettos, and 2 99% ones for total cost of 980g (24 retries in total) and also Sighfi who got a MP Sabre on 6th try, total cost of 800g.

Both pricing policies have their benefits, quality based, the player gets what they want at a fixed cost, which they know in advance - this involves No Risk to the buyer at all - but a big risk to the crafter.

Pay-by-retry puts the risk in the buyers corner - with no risk to the crafter. And although you dont know for certain how much that 99% item will cost, you could get lucky, get it on first try and save yourself a lot of money - or unlucky and it costs more then you was hoping for. But this also has the chance to get a MP item for very little money.

From reading trade forums, it seems suggested fixed price for MP items would be material cost *15, for Jambiya that would mean a MP could cost around 3 plat.


Like Pin said in another thread, if you dont trust the crafter, i would rather not have your buisness.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Glottis_Xanadu
Hmm, I was not even slagging anybody off. This was actually a pretty constructive thread till your comment came about,

You post was 100% pure flamebait,

This leads me to conclude you guys are all screwing over the customers, who orderd some crafted piece at 99% qua. So of you go to make it, and meanwhile you make a 100% qua "masterpiece". I then also assume, that unless he is your friend (for some this would not matter anyway, gold is gold) he will not get the 100% qua piece, but you will keep crafting untill you get another 99% qua to give to him, and go off to auction the 100% for a lot of cash. Basically, screwing this person over.

Or would this be a wrong interpretation?

100% slagging people (all crafters who are auctioning a 100% item). It was in absolutely no was constructive whatsoever. You were just looking to start a fight on the board.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Glottis_Xanadu
I agree with the fixed price, no argument there.

So I assume you'll be recommending all your friends and guildmates come buy from me at my fixed prices then? Oh wait, nevermind....

 

[Cowled]

Originally posted by Glottis_Xanadu
What I wonder about the crafters.
You guys no longer xp on your crafts, so I assume that you only craft to order.
This leads me to conclude you guys are all screwing over the customers, who orderd some crafted piece at 99% qua. So of you go to make it, and meanwhile you make a 100% qua "masterpiece". I then also assume, that unless he is your friend (for some this would not matter anyway, gold is gold) he will not get the 100% qua piece, but you will keep crafting untill you get another 99% qua to give to him, and go off to auction the 100% for a lot of cash. Basically, screwing this person over.

Or would this be a wrong interpretation?
Regards, Glottis

Happy u asked.

Since 1.52 i've had fast prices for qua 98 and 99 ... NOT 100. Therefore if you want to order a qua 100, you send me for a special-order.

You get what you order

 

[Chuffy]

If you don't like the way things are done, do it yourself.

 

[Belomar]

Originally posted by Glottis_Xanadu
Hmm, I was not even slagging anybody off. This was actually a pretty constructive thread till your comment came about, but your IQ was negatively surpassed by Negura

Hmm, what has my IQ got to do with anything? I voiced an opinion of someone who has been prowling these forums for a long time and has seen a very definite trend in the kind of posts you make here. I hear even The Brethren, your (former?) guild, shares this opinion.

 

[statix]

Originally posted by nanorch
Buy a Lexus?

ROFL )

if only they could !!