Spirit Masters: Lvl50 Baseline Nuke vs Lvl47 Lifetap

[Roo Stercogburn]

I've suddenly realised there may be no use to high darkness any more and wonder what other peeps think about this:

Baseline lvl50 nuke does base 179 damage, 2.6 second cast, 33 power.

Specced lvl47 lifetap does base 183 damage, 2.5 second cast, 30 power.

I checked values in game, not just on websites

Now, thats only 4 points of damage difference and the lifetap will be resisted more since its a lower level spell than the baseline nuke. Slightly lower damage on lvl50 nuke, slightly higher power, but not much difference in either.

Is it worth considering speccing darkness lower than this now and filling to 50 with items? In theory, this means you could get darkness to say 37 and fill with items and realm ranks easily to 50+.

Partly the reason for this dilemma is that the mez is pretty much useless (even talking about it starts me getting very ratty) and not worth speccing for; I'm afraid that Dark SM CC is a bit of an embaressment with the state of resists in game. The only thing on the dark line at higher level that is any use is the debuffs and again... they don't often make the difference in a fight. SM Dark debuffs work on spirit, body or energy. Er, not a lot of use to the Spirit Master himself unless he's using the spirit debuff with focus shield against mobs in PvE. Yes, you can debuff to aid pbae SMs but lets face it, it doesn't really happen a lot.

To muddy the waters a bit, another thing I'm wondering is if a caster split spec in Midgard is viable for the very first time, for example 37 Dark, 28 Sup (for cure mez) and 27 summoning for tough pet or even 36 Dark, 28 Sup, 28 Sum. (These specs just been thrown in air for thought, not been thoroughly researched). At first glance these specs looks to have a lot of utility but it goes against all previous caster thinking. Bear in mind I'm not considering the pbae as primary damage dealer, but the ranged attacks and the pet.

Thoughts?

 

[Gaeswen]

I would check pet intercept combined with lifetap first , this is the one thing that would make the lifetap come out on top compared to the dd.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Oh another thing:

for pbae lovers of mixed spec, it would seem that 41 sup / 35 dark / 3 sum is a pretty good spec now. Second best pbae and lots of darkness fun too - At RR5 you are hitting with darkness as if 50 dark.

I personally do not like the pbae playstyle so am not interested in sup other than for the other spells on that line

 

[Old Nicodemus]

Ok...

I have been running with a 42/32/11 caster for a while now, Supp/Dark/Summ. I enjoy this way of playing as it means that I do not have to rely on the Supp nuke all the time.

The inclusion of the 50 baseline nuke has finally rectified an oversight but effectively nerfed the lifetap. This in effect is causing the Dark line to become a redundant line. Not only is the spec line nuke now a lesser weapon the nerfing of a Dark Sm's Mezz has eroded any chance of that style of play actually being useful. To rectify this the Dark Sm must be given a group ability (area lifetap or group lifedrain) to actually make it worth while for a Dark Sm to be useful.

As it is we are heading down the path of the mana chanter. 1 line to rule them all, 1 line to smite them. This IMHO is not good for the class, the realm or the game.

When we first started this game, Dark Sm was the only viable option. The inclusion of the Supp nuke has allowed us to branch out and have 2 viable lines. Let's face it peeps... Summoning has never been and never will be a viable line. The wheel has turned and we have now entered a new age of the single spec line but this time it is Supp.

The multi specc Sm is a wonderful Char to play. I played it for a very long time before I respecced. I ran to level 50 and to RR3 with a spec (roughly) of 36/36/25 with points left over. This char was a superb PvE char and was useful in RvR at that time. However RvR these days is all about damage output and with all the spellcrafting suits and resistances this Char would not be able to even get out of the portal keep now.

I am afraid peeps that once again Sm's are being steered down a path that will have them singing the Manabomb tune.. and that is a great shame. Expect a very large Supp nerf guys.. because it will come and when it does.. the Spiritmaster may as well be removed from the game.


The Darkmaster is dead.. All hail the Spiritbomb!

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Not quite Nico.

The point was that you may no longer need to spec highly in Dark to achieve high dark effectiveness ie a single target nuke which is all that the 47 lifetap has become, partly because it was the only 40+ spell worth having and partly because the ever increasing number of instas prevent casting, the casted lifetap as something that heals as it hits has become imo fairly pointless. You can actually read between the lines and see that Mythic have realised this when they made the bonedancer, arguably compounding the issue in some ways.

Being realistic about the 40+ spells on the SM dark line, you are looking at seriously limited extra utility to the class for the amount of spec points that you spend.

Is there anything in Mid that actually does energy damage apart from procs/charges? Yay, lets give SMs a debuff for it. Body damage debuff on a 2 sec+ cast. Um, get a bonedancer - insta. Base and spec dex debuffs... well unless you are a friar, why really worry. I've found its only much use for interupting crowds and yet again its not as good as the sup line for this as it has a smaller area of effect compared to the str/con debuff. I've never understood the reasoning behind this but hell that would be expecting consistency.

(Oh and btw SM debuffs still broken going by TL reports as they don't affect bonuses from items so they don't even debuff the whole char, just part of their stats.)

With a lvl50 nuke, you have a major damage dealing spell without the need to spec for it. Look at the spells that are 40+ on the dark line, why bother? Mez is pointless due to resists everything else is just debuffs until you get to 47. I've got this sneaking suspicion you could knock more hit points off an enemy with the sup str/con debuff than that extra 4 pts of damage on the 47 nuke.

Will be experimenting and checking what I think, but I am interested to see see what other SMs think

 

[mavericky]

I was doing a few tests on the intercept last night

My buffed pet (dueling a buffed hunter) was intercepting about 50% of the time. If you have a decent level lifetap you would be a very hard class to take down solo. Unbuffed it was more like 25%

The split spec you mention would seem to make you a jack or all trades, having spell lines that would be resisted to much, the lvl 50 baseline nuke is meant to be a real power hog according to the US sites too. I have never tested it but does focus help on baseline spells, if it doesnt then that is another thing to consider

 

[Old Nicodemus]

If you don't need to spec darkness so high any longer, why spec it at all Roo? Thats the point I was making. Let's face the facts here, to be really useful you need to spec one line much, much higher than any of the others.

With all the stealth nerfs that have happened to mezz, the advent of stupid resists and now the inclusion of the Level 50 baseline nuke you have in effect taken away the usefulness of the Dark line for an Sm.

Don't get me wrong, I think that in PvE a Dark master is still a valid option, however when it comes to RvR you are just an Rp cow with a pet. You jump in a group these days and usually the first question that is asked is "Do you have the top Pbaoe?"

The point of the energy debuff was to be able to help runies who use energy as they can help Sm's with a cold debuff (if I remember rightly) Admittedly it is a fairly usesless spell as the number of Runies who actually use energy based spells are rarer than rocking horse crap, since for them the Darkness line is the most popular line. (Apologies if I got that wrong but I'm going on what I can remember)

As for the pet blocking for you maybe 50% of the time.

Whoopdedoo.

What is the likelyhood of ACTUALLY meeting someone 1 on 1 these days (and not prearranged battles) the answer is slim. Assasin classes are more likely to leave an Sm alone now when solo, Archer classes will probably pick on someone else and tanks will probably happily engage you so that a mage/cleric/over powered nuking pet classes can nuke the snot out of you. Hell, why even bother doing that? Mezz the entire area and either leave the Sm to last or ignore him completely.

At the end of the day the fact is the Darkness line is now effectively redundant for Sm's in RvR. Sure some will still run with it and some will probably be reasonably successful with it too, however, if you don't have the Darkness line at or very near the top then you are effectively nerfing yourself...

By Hel I should know, as I never have and never will have a single line at a high level.

 

[Solid]

I believe full supp or darkcarver is the mpost popular runemaster line.

Supp RM is pretty much exclusively energy, darkcarver debuffs their own baseline nukes, but would not complain at having energy debuffed for their RC line.

BTW Roo, THANES use energy spells (lets not go into how shite they are, but the fact is their spells are energy pbased)

 

[Old Nicodemus]

Ahhh....

Thanks TPT

Been a while since I have played around with a runie (or actually been in game properly) so I couldn't remember.

So a Darkmaster would only be useful in a group with 7 thanes then?

 

[Solid]

Well Nico, a Darkmaster and soem Thanes/Runecarvers are prolly the best bet.

RC AoE and Thane AoE is energy, could make for some nice AE ranged damage

 

[Old Nicodemus]

A pity it is a single target only spell then. Plus with the way resists are at the moment actually making it stick could be a bit of a problem to. Never the less it does make for an interesting experiment at some time.

 

[scarffs]

Come on guys, you get a pet that intercepts between 25 and 50% of the time yet you complain ?
And the addition of a nuke can't mean that the specline is any worse ? You just get the option now to shift some points from dark to something else.

And the fact that assassins and archers wont target you ( you said so ) is a blessing, so cheer up .

And gifv Thanes some loving !

 

[Old Nicodemus]

Scarffs.. you are missing the point.

What we are actually complaining about is the fact that we are being forced to only be able to play 1 effective line again.

And having a pet that blocks is no different from having a Thane/Warrior/anything that has armour and is willing to actually protect you, standing next to you. Mezz the Sm, stand back and nuke the snot out of him from a distance.



Whoopdedoo.

 

[skar_ironfist]

I think the Dark SM is a strong line. Ok the mez is not the best in game, but it is a back for the healer mez. If the heal goes down.

The pet actually intercepts 50% most of the time (especially when buffed). It intercepts PA's so if you are on a hill casting away, and the stealther runs through the group to have a go at you, the pet is there to block the strike. This has been tested with 2 SBs performing PA's at the same time.

The lifetap, though only 4 points higher that the lvl 50 dark damage. Does have the lucky side effect of giving you 80% health back Which does keep you alive a little bit longer. Allowing you to go for the casters 1st, while the fighter is stiking you and getting blocked.

Plus if you combine the dark sm, with a dark carver, the damage is in the 600+ (including the 80% you get for health).

The cast time on the lifetap is now 2.5 - high dex and MOA.

You also have a nice body debuff, which works well with the BD lifetap. Which pushes there damage up alot. So as a point man for supp BDs a dark SM is very useful.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

The baseline nuke and the lifetap are so similar in power usage, damage and cast time I'm mainly wondering if there is a benefit to speccing high darkness now when you can get probably 90% of what you need simply by taking darkness to possibly 35-37 and having a lot of points left over for other lines.

I think peeps complaining about the power usage of lvl50 nuke are going to be bonedancers or sup SMs which are used to the power drain of a lvl43 spell where as I'm used to something a bit more meaty so the power difference from what I'm used to is very small.

I'm going to do some experimenting with it. To test, I'll go out for some RvR and just use baseline darkness for spells above 40.

SMs have an impressive bag of tricks now spread across 3 lines. Hmm might see if I can get a respec stone from somewhere and fiddle about.

Anyone fancy a pop at the dragon again?
(I think dragon raids are defo back on after 1.64 anyway - I quite fancy an All Focus staff )

 

[svenfleet]

Basically you'd have to rip the 47lvl lifetap from my dead cold hands, its an awsome spell! In duels I'm almost unbeatable, and the number of times I've kept going because of moc/lt and 2+ tanks stuck to me it isn't funny. Fully buffed with moa2 I'm at around 1.2 sec cast time though its difficuilt to measure as the casting animations start to stutter.

Another point to consider, is the power usage. I'm constantly running out of power even with MCL, a constant supply power potions and max +power on the SC config. So a nuke that costs more power isn't really that desirable.

The AE mez isn't the best but in gank groups its sometimes the deciding factor. Even effective 10 sec mez can mean victory.

I'd say stick with it, I will be.

 

[rynnor]

My next respec for rvr will be back to 47 dark - I think lifedrain plus pet intercept should be a damn nice defensive combo - I dont see how the level 50 dd causes any extra probs really - its just a nice bonus for those who arent full dark...

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

I don't see the new nuke as a problem, but rather was thinking on its potential to allow the removal of high level dark spec since the only spell of consistant use was the lvl47 lifetap and was looking to see what other SMs thought