Sorcs!

[Trinilim]

Ok, I was hearing about hibs and how damn overpowered they were, etc etc, we've heard it all before.

So having this thought eating away at my mind, I decided to make, yet another, barrysworld whine about hibs. Deciding I'd back up my whine with research, I went to catacombs and went through the classes.

Enchanters get a 50% heat debuff!
OMFG N3RF!..

..is what most people would say.

HOWEVER. (yes, I'm getting to sorcs in a second)

Mids get a 50% heat, cold, and matter debuff!
OMFG N3RF!..

..is again what most people would say.

NOW, what does this have to do with sorcs?

Well, I wasn't really sure that albs got any of these kickass resist debuffs, so I did some research.

Wizards get a 5% heat and cold debuff.. whooptydoo.

I went to sorcs, and here's what I found:

In the body spec you can get 50% heat, cold, and matter debuffs.

So I did some tinkering around, and came up with this spec:

47Body
26Mind
5Matter

With this spec, you get:

209 DD! (2.8 cast time!)
-70 dex/-70 quick debuff AOE insta!
-50% Heat debuff (2.0 sec cast time!)
-50% Cold debuff (2.0 sec cast time!)
-30% Matter debuff (2.0 sec cast time!)
60 second AoE Root (2.5 sec cast time!)

80 second single target mez!
AE amnesia! (2.0 sec cast time!)
Cure mez!
lvl 20 charm! (which I believe, post 1.60, will allow you to charm ANY mob to lvl 50)
46 second AOE mez
-45 con/-45 str debuff insta!
Powersong 3 buff! (post 1.60)
10% mez resist! (post 1.60)

Maybe mythic is actually beginning to fix our classes!

We shouldn't be whining about things like this if people would actually do the research and find out things like this

With this sorc you have CC, MAJOR debuffs for ice/fire wizzies and cabbas, DDs, insta debuffs, a great pet, more resistant to mez, and a powersong buff!

Just my 2c.

Please reply with positive input only

 

[Moodyard^_^]

May i quote you on this later on?

 

[Aurelius A]

Trinilim dont complain about people not doing research , when this has been known by sorcs and most players for ages.

The difference is that enchanters get a debuff to do there own damage type (along with a single target stun so easier to use ) when the debuff is on another character problems of co-ordinating attacks are more likely so you cant truly compare.

yes full body spec is fine if you want to play that way but let me just say the Aoe mez is rather crap as with resists and determination your looking at very short mez times .
You watch any of the current full body spec sorcs play currently and they mostly use root.

Also the lvl 20 charm wont let you charm a lvl 50 pet, afaik it didnt change in 1.60 patch and you will still be limited to green con pets .
Only thing that changed for pets i see was the limits on types were removed for charming.

 

[wyleia]

Body Sorcs have always been a superior nuking class... 209 dd is only 10pts behind the wizzie 219dd.. and when i was full body for a bit, i would actually do more dmg with my dd than the fire wizzie in teh group...

Most sorcs DO know about this spec... and I would not hesitate to move to this spec if it wasnt for the pet... You dont get evencon pet.. u get level 39 at most pet.. but still the utlity on this nuker is amazing.. nice fast nuke, the ae debuffs, the UBER 72 second aeroot, a nice 49 second aemezz.. and yes fire wizards love you with the 50% debuff... plus you get speed...


In the tradeoff with not going with a wizzie, you lose bolt and aoe dmg.. but you gain 2 forms of aecc that are decent in rvr (you need both nowadays due to purge.. i usually root then mezz or vice versa), you get speed, you can have greencon pet, you get NICE resist debuffs.. you get nice aedebuffs and targetted instas.. you get LIFETAP.. LIFETAP is greatest of all nukes cuz it heals you while u use it and a full body sorc has a VERY nice lifetap.. MoC + lifetap and you aer the tank, you also get SPEED, remove mezz (which is VERY nice as well), aeamesia to interrupt and post 1.60 u can have powersong 3 buff and 1875 aemezz range

Body Sorcs have always been out there.. and its not some secret.. just people think that wizzies are better nukers.. which indeed they are with their bolt and aedmg... But the utility just does NOt compare with a body sorc

 

[Jiggs]

well grymulv and zoyster have done this a few times, its pretty dam effective when u get it right

the key is having an /assist macro to the name of the sorcerer debuffing

and well since most high RR sorcerers on this server have 45+body i would say most know about this already...

 

[Glottis_Xanadu]

Please, never ever compare sorcs to enchanters.
Enchanters are disgustingly overpowered, with stun, debuff to own damage, and nuke and pbaoe all standard equipment.
A sorc best nuke used to be good, till Mythic moved it from spirit or energy to body (not sure on the old damage type).
Now you will nuke for about 200 damage.. which does not do very much against an opponents 1500hp... pray they do not notice you I guess
The sorc will be better with the upcoming patch, I agree, but the role it has is different from an enchanter. During a fight you will hardly ever get time to use your heat/cold/matter debuff, as you will die first...
Regards, Glottis

 

[old.Aragone]

enchanters can only debuff their base nuke damage witch has huge variance and costs huge amounts of power!

most of the time thes debuffs are only usfull if you are co. working with a light chanter/eld/menta

 

[Flimgoblin]

we'll assume they're going for the top pbaoe...

that's 48 in mana

that leaves around 23 in light?

+11 from items
+4 from RR5 (not hideously difficult to get to)

that's a modified 38 in light - that's not "huge variance" to me...

lots of power yes but considering they can also debuff the resistance to their stun it's pretty nasty.

 

[old.Filip]

and dont forget the pet ..

snare no LOS pet is uber .. as a hero on camlann i dont have a count of how many times i was killed by grey/green chanters

allso with my minser in normall rvr they are a pain .. if i mess a chanter i got a nuking pet to interrupt me from mezzing anything else for a while ...

some times i even mess the pets first to get over this and THEN the chanter.. which imho is insane ... any other realm do really worry about any alb pet ?

dont say necro ... why ?? cause when you mess the pet then the necro cant cast anything (as i understand the class, havnt played any..)

 

[Apathy]

Enchanters - get 50% debuffs in the most popular spec line that gives PBAoE, allowing them to debuff their baseline nuke.

Runemasters - get 50% debuffs in the same line that gives AoE, GTAoE and bolts. They can debuff for these too.

Spiritmasters and cabalists get resist debuffs in lines that are not attractive to spec in.

Sorcerers will get 50% resist debuffs as part as a full body spec or 30% as a body/mind spec. They can only debuff for their baseline DoT, which is utterly useless when compared to other classes who can debuff for their bolts, nukes etc.

Sorcerers specced fully in body give up the level 50 pet and their mezz is only the level 24 AoE one. Getting all the 50% debuffs means giving up the third PoT and getting only PoT2.

Things like the AoE root and better nuke etc are obvious.

Going 36m/40b will give 30% resist buffs as well as even pet, second best mez, 2nd best PoT, second best self resist, and the useless 5% group chant.

Suggesting that sorcerers spec based purely on the strength of the resist debuffs simply because a lot of Hibs use them is silly. Hibernia is NOT organised and working together. People do not make mana chanters thinking "Why, these resist buffs will surely aid the realm! Yes, I shall go full mana!". They do it because PB is popular there. Just like cabalists don't spec full spirit because, though it would clearly help the realm, it doesn't do much for the person playing the cabalist.

I've said this before and I will say it again - PLAYING AROUND WITH THE CHAR BUILDER GIVES YOU NO REAL INSIGHT INTO A CLASS AND IT'S TOTALLY POINTLESS UNLESS YOU PLAY THAT CLASS TO LEVEL 50, RVR A BIT AND THEN MAYBE YOUR OPINIONS WILL HAVE MORE OF A BASIS TO THEM.

a.
*

 

[old.anubis]

any other realm do really worry about any alb pet ?

chain stun mebby

rm for debuff his own nuke should give up pbt. pbt >> own debuff
chanters dont give up anything

but you forget one more class who can debuff for himself. bonedancer has body debuff for insta lifetaps

 

[Gahldir]

Originally posted by Glottis_Xanadu
Please, never ever compare sorcs to enchanters.
Enchanters are disgustingly overpowered, with stun, debuff to own damage, and nuke and pbaoe all standard equipment.
A sorc best nuke used to be good, till Mythic moved it from spirit or energy to body (not sure on the old damage type).
Now you will nuke for about 200 damage.. which does not do very much against an opponents 1500hp... pray they do not notice you I guess
The sorc will be better with the upcoming patch, I agree, but the role it has is different from an enchanter. During a fight you will hardly ever get time to use your heat/cold/matter debuff, as you will die first...
Regards, Glottis

think it's rather ignorant by you to mention debuff as a standard equipment on a disgustingly overpowered Enchanter when you later in the very same post state that the debuffs are useless.

 

[Apathy]

My lvl 35 spec nuke does 170 on Hibs with body resists up. Rarely does less than 350 on Mids. Last night I had quite a few crits on Hibs who didn't have resist buffs going. Ha! 500 and 600 or so.

Now Mythic and GOA will nerf me. Not sorcs, just me.

M - "Yes, that Apathy cast a damage spell and actually did damage. We better fix that."

G - "Do not worry. Patch 1.61 will sort it out. We're altering all his spells so that they are just the Confuse spell with different icons."

M - "Ha ha! Let's see him focus his viking helmet badger after that!"

Anyway...I will be respeccing to 46mind, 28matter after 1.59. I'll get the best of everything in the Mind line apart from the top group resist chant (Pfffft.) and instead of nuking, I will try and snare people with the level 24 DD/snare. I won't have an AoE root, though. Can't get that until 30 body which is impossible with 46 mind, which I want for the top PoT. I guess I can stack dots on people though.

Going 28 body instead of matter would give the first line of resist debuffs but at 15%...it's not going to make a HUGE difference and I rarely have time to use them in RvR anyway. (And noone notices when I do. Pffft.) 28 body is the third best nuke but...well, I may as well get the DD/snare for the added utility. No more mid-range damage for me.

I'll try and stick with this spec until 1.60 at least. See how it affects my playstyle and the success of my group. If it sucks so much that I get pressure sickness, then I'll respec to full body and run around nuking and debuffing. Maybe go kidnap a newly dinged 50 fire/ice wizard from trees and teach him/her the joys of debuff.

~shrug~

Trinilim doesn't even seem to be aware that most of the spells he lists as "post 1.60" are actually all in 1.59. The main problem sorcerers have are the people who don't really understand them.

a.
*

 

[Glottis_Xanadu]

Originally posted by Gahldir


think it's rather ignorant by you to mention debuff as a standard equipment on a disgustingly overpowered Enchanter when you later in the very same post state that the debuffs are useless.

Debuffs help a lot, 50% more damage is a lot. I just want to say that a sorc has other things to do than to cast 2 sec debuffs on people, as they have no time. In a one group vs one group you will find little heat/cold debuffing going on, simply because you are busy trying to survive. One on one I find I get stunned, debuffed, and nuked to hell by an enchanter... One group vs one group means the enchanter will run up to the messed tanks, and start pbaoeing away... In a one group vs one group fight, it means the sorc does the aoe mezz, and presses sprint to get the fuck out of the way of the tank attacking him due to group purge, and purge.
Regards, Glottis

 

[old.Filip]

Ya the chanter only have to think about damage ... the sorc is alb's CC thats a rather important differance.

 

[Aussie-]

There is absolulty no time for a sorcer to debuff

Main things you have to do in RvR :
Mez, Root, Unmez, insta-debuffs, running and maybe a few nukes for a tank attacking 1 of our mages.
Anyway, debuffing sux completly since they are a part of the nuke specline, 2 nukers will do more dmg then 1debuffer and 1 nuker.

 

[Apathy]

I don't even have time to demezz. I've told people that the ONLY way to get my attention in battle is to use a /send macro or something saying they are mezzed but noooo. They never do.

And it's usually down to the sorc to get pets off people with root/mezz. Debuffs are nice on tanks, though and if I see a tank being nuked with fire I will use heat debuff on it. It casts VERY fast with MotA2 and dex buffs. Should happen more often since I now play with /effects all thanks to SI. Woowoo.

In summary - sorcerers have a lot to do in a fight and it takes a lot of time and concentration. Given how crap sorcerers generally are at playing it's a wonder anything ever gets done.

a.
*

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by old.anubis


chain stun mebby

that's an elemental

and they have to spend a year casting them to get the chain-stun effect...

enchanter doesn't even need to be awake for the pet to go crazy on you

(although I'm of the opinion they should just proc a 9 second stun at the highest level and have a resist timer on it ...)

 

[Trinilim]

First of all, I wasn't complaining at all, for those of you accussing me of it. Was just telling you about what I found.

Second, the debuffs are a HUGE advantage. Ok, so you don't get debuffs to your own nukes.. but what about that Ice wizzy that'll be doing 50% more damage? or that fire wizzy that'll be doing 50% more damage? It's not always about you in rvr, it's helping others kill more effeciently as well.

And the debuff for enchanters is for their baseline nukes only.

With 48 mana (last pbaoe) you can get 24 Light max, which is hardly any damage at all (102 DD). The baseline does 179 damage.

So think about it. (179/100)*50+179 = 268.

Now take the fire wizzy's DD after you've debuffed someone.
(219/100)*50+219 = 327.


Well hey, now they're DDing for about as much as they can Bolt (but without the misses).

And the ice wiz?

(325/100)*50 = 487.

So let's compare shall we?

Enchanter debuff + baseline nuke = 268 damage!
Fire wiz debuff + specline nuke = 327 damage!
Ice wiz debuff + specline nuke = 487 damage!

Now who was talking crap about me posting BS?

edit: and apathy, I've played a lvl 50 sorc for at least 2 months now

 

[old.Ramas]

The problem is, that since the debuff has such a short duration you *have* to be co-ordinated up front.

In your examples take the Fire wiz case.

The gain on each nuke is shade over 100, plus acuity bonuses, say 125. minus resists, say 30%, giving 87.5 extra damage on each shot.

Now consider that the debuff takes time, which the caster could spend nuking.

Now consider that the wizard needs to use /assist to identify the debuffed target, likely costing enough player attention/time to lose another nuke.

Then consider that the players are likely to lose the first couple of seconds of the debuff finishing up whatever the wizard was previously doing (moving range, nuking something else etc).

So you have about 12 seconds to recover damage lost in the time setting up the debuff, you recover at a rate of 87.5ish per cast.

Once you've recovered lost damage, you make a profit of 87.5 per cast within what's left of the 12 seconds.

You will gain a little more through crits, but you will also lose a little through debuff dimishing returns if the 50% debuff hits a target with less than 50% heat resist. (once a target's resist goes below 0%, you need 2 debuff points to add 1% to target vulnerability)

I'm not saying it isn't possible to make this work to your advantage, espeicially if you have mutiple casters with the damage type of the debuff; but it isn't quite as uber-leet-omfg-fantastic as it might seem.

 

[old.anubis]

actually 50% debuff doubles your dmg output
if some1 had 50% resists (all hibs have all resists at 50+) after debuff they will have 0% resists, so your dmg doubles against them
instead of nuking 8 times you can debuff once and nuke 4 times, very nice tradeoff

 

[Trinilim]

Originally posted by old.Ramas
The problem is, that since the debuff has such a short duration you *have* to be co-ordinated up front.

In your examples take the Fire wiz case.

The gain on each nuke is shade over 100, plus acuity bonuses, say 125. minus resists, say 30%, giving 87.5 extra damage on each shot.

Now consider that the debuff takes time, which the caster could spend nuking.

Now consider that the wizard needs to use /assist to identify the debuffed target, likely costing enough player attention/time to lose another nuke.

Then consider that the players are likely to lose the first couple of seconds of the debuff finishing up whatever the wizard was previously doing (moving range, nuking something else etc).

So you have about 12 seconds to recover damage lost in the time setting up the debuff, you recover at a rate of 87.5ish per cast.

Once you've recovered lost damage, you make a profit of 87.5 per cast within what's left of the 12 seconds.

You will gain a little more through crits, but you will also lose a little through debuff dimishing returns if the 50% debuff hits a target with less than 50% heat resist. (once a target's resist goes below 0%, you need 2 debuff points to add 1% to target vulnerability)

I'm not saying it isn't possible to make this work to your advantage, espeicially if you have mutiple casters with the damage type of the debuff; but it isn't quite as uber-leet-omfg-fantastic as it might seem.

what I'm saying is that the fire wiz would be nuking a target, sorc could debuff that target, thus helping the wiz, and it'll die faster, with no time lost.

and about the 30% resist, unless they have 80% resist that's impossible... though it IS hib we're talking about here..