SOE: IRL cash for stuff OK as long as we get a cut. Mythic: yuck!

Malena

Banned
Joined
Nov 3, 2004
Messages
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Hello well this is a must read buy items,chars and lvls with IRL cash

I realy can see the future now hehe

( you hear a lvl 50 char (warrior) named 500dollars screaming in Hibernia
- HELP how do I start fighting ?

other realm mates : shouting RTFM you bought that on ebay ?

500 Dollars screaming back no I just bought the "delux pack" get a lvl 50 char and get right into battle.

;)

For those who isnt around the mmorpg world alot
here some news

Sony that big mmorpg owner like Starwars (SWG) and Everquest II

have now deside gamers can buy items in game for IRL cash

The gamer world is divided

Pihls and malena are abit neutral as he see the positiv things into this well I open minded mostly and got IRL cash :flame:

here is the response from Mythics who I think well getting abit jumpy that if the largest mmorp producer intro this they most follow them.

and the response from SOE (Sony)





Friday, April 22, 2005
MMO dev disappointed
Mythic Rips Into SOE Over Auction Site

Following the news of Sony Online Entertainment's plans to launch an auction site for EverQuest II, we heard from Mythic Entertainment's CEO Mark Jacobs who called SOE's auction plans "one of the worst decisions in the history of the MMORPG industry." Jacobs thinks SOE is taking the industry down the wrong path. Find out why inside and then read SOE's response.


Mythic Entertainment, a developer of massively multiplayer online games known best for Dark Age of Camelot, is clearly not pleased with Sony Online Entertainment's decision to launch an official auction site for its games. GameDAILY BIZ received a statement from Mark Jacobs, president and CEO of Mythic Entertainment, in which he rips into SOE for setting a bad example as the leader in the MMO industry.

Worst decision in MMO history?
"I'm disappointed with the decision from a leader in the MMO industry to go down a path which in the past, has been an anathema to them and remains so to just about every other MMORPG company in the industry. I think that not only supporting the sale of in-game characters, items and currency, but also taking a 'cut' of those sales, is not only a mistake but one of the worst decisions in the history of the MMORPG industry," says Jacobs.

Jacobs also believes that the service will ultimately backfire in two ways. One, it will lead to frustrated players if their items get deleted or SOE has to make server changes; and two, it will also encourage the secondary market, which is exactly the opposite of what SOE is trying to do.

[ "We will gladly 'leave money on the table' to ensure that whether or not you like our games, that they remain as that, games and not an entertainment version of day-trading," Mark Jacobs, President and CEO, Mythic ]


"By creating this service, SOE may be painting themselves into a creative corner. What will happen when SOE finds it has to change or delete items, servers, etc? Will users who have bought items through SOE take kindly to the fact that their $800 swords have been deleted? Will SOE have to consider now and forever the ramifications of every major change they make to the game based on the possibility that users will not only be dissatisfied on an 'entertainment level' but now will be angry from a 'financial level' as well?" ponders Jacobs.

He continues, "Rather than discouraging companies such as IGE, I believe that by this decision, SOE will probably create dozens of small IGE and IGE-like companies who may view SOE's servers as the 'Virtual Gold Rush of 2005.' At the same time, this decision will reduce the costs of IGE who now can use SOE's own customer service, billing and bandwidth to complete these transactions quicker and easier than they can do under the present system."

Virtual marketplace concerns
Jacobs then discusses the ramifications of turning a game into a marketplace for players. He believes that SOE's auction service may lead to lawsuits and even tax problems for the big-time sellers. "By encouraging players to treat their game as a profit-making enterprise rather than as a game, SOE may increase their profit margin in the short-term but over the long-term will certainly increase the risk of both class-action and individual lawsuits, consumer fraud and customer dissatisfaction. The IRS may be interested in seeing the tax records of those 'heavy sellers' that utilize this service, and who knows where that will lead," he says.

Another problem that Jacobs foresees is one that's already prevalent in many MMOs: players that try to gain complete control over the best spots for acquiring loot. This, he says, will only lead to more customer service time for SOE. "One of the stated reasons for this decision was the fact that currently a lot of SOE's CSR time is taken up by dealing with fraudulent complaints. While the number of these complaints (or simply the time that is taken up by them) may decrease, won't SOE's CSRs have to spend more time now dealing with players who are seeking to monopolize the best revenue-generating spots? This type of behavior is already a problem in many online games and by directly tying their game systems to a real money auction system, this type of behavior is likely to increase thus forcing an increase in SOE's CSR time," explains Jacobs.

Games should be games
Lastly, he addresses the priorities of his own company, most importantly that Mythic wants to keep its games as just that. "Mythic Entertainment has turned down a number of opportunities to participate in such ventures, both with the companies that auction these goods, as well as doing it on our own. We remain committed to keeping our games as games and not as opportunities to encourage behavior that runs counter to their spirit of creativity and entertainment. We have no plans to participate in this type of service. We will gladly 'leave money on the table' to ensure that whether or not you like our games, that they remain as that, games and not an entertainment version of day-trading," concludes Jacobs.

SOE responds
GameDAILY BIZ contacted SOE to see what response they might have after hearing about the scathing comments made by Mythic's CEO. We immediately received the following statement from SOE President John Smedley:

In satisfying the broad player demand for a service such as Station Exchange, SOE is again innovating, and any innovation is bound to have its critics.

Unsanctioned virtual property auctions are now rampant, and will continue to grow whether or not publishers implement their own auction sites. Every MMO company has to assess the needs of its own player base. It is clear to us that we have many loyal and honest players who simply don't have the time to take multiple characters through the game's higher levels of play and want a sanctioned, secure means to broaden their play experience. Increasingly, our customer service department has had to bear the brunt of futily attempting to assist these players when they are cheated by unsecure transactions. Station Exchange will enable these honest players to use an auction service without concern that they will be scammed.

We want all of our players to have a positive experience and since our player base has been divided on this issue, with increasingly more support for real world monetary transactions, we have determined that offering new servers that are Station Exchange enabled is a great way to strike that balance. However, we will continue to maintain our strict policy against exploiting, using macros or bots, duping items, and transactions through 3rd party auction sites.

When SOE launched PvP enabled servers and dedicated role-playing servers for EverQuest, we knew that those communities would develop in a different way. In that same fashion, we fully expect that the Exchange-enabled server communities for EverQuest II will develop their community in a different way. When a player chooses to play on an Exchange-enabled server, they know that they will be playing with other like-minded players and that they will have the option of supplementing their own character's evolution through the Station Exchange. It will be an optional way to play our game.

However, we will continue to enforce our right to ban the accounts of players not only for explicit forms of cheating on all servers but also for disruptive gameplay. The game design of additional content for EverQuest II will remain focused on the original intent of the game and we will not allow the gameplay experience to be hindered by unfair play, whatever form that may take.

We are excited about Station Exchange and feel that we are taking the needs of all our loyal fans into account. Station Exchange simply gives the players a choice, and security for those whose choice is to utilize an auction service to enhance their game play experience.


I can see the comic in this :cheers: not entirly sure what I shall think of it
what you think ?
 

Jaem-

Can't get enough of FH
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All I can see is another way of making more money for the company.

Takes away the whole point of charactor progression in RPG's. :(
 

Kami

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ultima online have been doing it for YEARS. Never had much of an impact on that game, to be honest as far as the "how do I fight" thing it's no worse than power leveling..
 

Darkmack

One of Freddy's beloved
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Well PLing is bad but then again at least people who are being PLed have played the game before and they know slightly what todo it isn't to hard to adapt to any character once you get used to the UI and things PL > Ebay. overall anyway this gives the rich people chance to be the best and the poor people i.e me unable to get crap all good stuff...

Good on Mythic tbh if they are not going to do this like Jaem says it would take away the whole meaning of leveling up then getting good gear by working hard in PvE etc you would get "ebayed" n00bs so to speak running around in the best gear in the game. Just have to LoL at the people who think that it is right in order to take this on. :wanker:

Dmack.
 

Malena

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Darkmack said:
Well PLing is bad but then again at least people who are being PLed have played the game before and they know slightly what todo it isn't to hard to adapt to any character once you get used to the UI and things PL > Ebay. overall anyway this gives the rich people chance to be the best and the poor people i.e me unable to get crap all good stuff...

Good on Mythic tbh if they are not going to do this like Jaem says it would take away the whole meaning of leveling up then getting good gear by working hard in PvE etc you would get "ebayed" n00bs so to speak running around in the best gear in the game. Just have to LoL at the people who think that it is right in order to take this on. :wanker:

Dmack.
mm got some valid points there I can agree one most or to a % of those.

just feel bad if you gonna "wanker" all those are for that according to SOE that is a massive amount of people :)
 

Kami

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Darkmack said:
Well PLing is bad but then again at least people who are being PLed have played the game before and they know slightly what todo it isn't to hard to adapt to any character once you get used to the UI and things PL > Ebay. overall anyway this gives the rich people chance to be the best and the poor people i.e me unable to get crap all good stuff...

Good on Mythic tbh if they are not going to do this like Jaem says it would take away the whole meaning of leveling up then getting good gear by working hard in PvE etc you would get "ebayed" n00bs so to speak running around in the best gear in the game. Just have to LoL at the people who think that it is right in order to take this on. :wanker:

Dmack.

Suggest you leave the MMORPGs then since this is the way they'll all go as it makes them the most money.

Another way to look at it is that it gives people who work like myself a chance to compete against the "busy" students, unemployed etc who have far more free time to play. Some peeps on here play for 1-2hours at most a day, others probably rack up 12+. So before you start spouting that it's "unfair" on the poorer people, right now the game is on the time-poor. That's not a pop at the unemployed by the way, I'd probably do the same if I was in thier position :)

I don't particularly want to start buying stuff just to compete or have more fun but chances are it'll be necessary if they keep adding extra stuff in DAOC like MLs, RAs etc.
 

Gear

Can't get enough of FH
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The point however is that this will eventually shut down all gamers from having a go at the proper farming spots as they'll be perma camped by traders.

We have all farmed/camped this and that to get some in-game money, but after a point you think, fuck it, I have enough now, time to move on and enjoy. Imagine however if you could just turn the in-game money into real life cash! You never have enough ;)

People are fighting each other over gov etc as it is, imagine what would happen if gov equals 100 quid in the bank with goa's blessing?
 

Escape

Can't get enough of FH
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Mark Jacobs should look at his own game before criticising SOE

"By creating this service, SOE may be painting themselves into a creative corner. What will happen when SOE finds it has to change or delete items, servers, etc? Will users who have bought items through SOE take kindly to the fact that their $800 swords have been deleted? Will SOE have to consider now and forever the ramifications of every major change they make to the game based on the possibility that users will not only be dissatisfied on an 'entertainment level' but now will be angry from a 'financial level' as well?" ponders Jacobs.
This is true of ANY game you've paid for. Whether it's a £30 single player game, which is changed by a patch... or an MMO, like DAoC which nerfs something in ever patch. What about the people who've invested over £200 in subs and have their main character made redundant? That's worse than having a 'sword' nerfed imho.

Another problem that Jacobs foresees is one that's already prevalent in many MMOs: players that try to gain complete control over the best spots for acquiring loot.... ...won't SOE's CSRs have to spend more time now dealing with players who are seeking to monopolize the best revenue-generating spots? This type of behavior is already a problem in many online games and by directly tying their game systems to a real money auction system, this type of behavior is likely to increase thus forcing an increase in SOE's CSR time," explains Jacobs.
Of course it's a problem, and it's happening in DAoC too. tbh, I'd much rather pay some £££ for artifacts/scroll, instead of waiting in line to camp a mob, or farming plats. I don't have that much time for DAoC.

Mark Jacobs is only considering the real-life currency side of things, the truth is many MMO players would rather do two hours overtime at work, then use that money to buy ingame items, as opposed to farming ingame for 10hours to buy the same! Time = Money etc...

So think about it, do you want to spend 16hours camping an artifact(it happens oO), or let someone else do it and pay them for the item?

What SOE are doing is sadly the future of MMOs. I'd rather see a developer which truly cares about the player base and makes items easier to acquire(maybe in Guild Wars?). Though this system will at least close the gap between casual players and students :p
 

Malena

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Gear said:
The point however is that this will eventually shut down all gamers from having a go at the proper farming spots as they'll be perma camped by traders.

We have all farmed/camped this and that to get some in-game money, but after a point you think, fuck it, I have enough now, time to move on and enjoy. Imagine however if you could just turn the in-game money into real life cash! You never have enough ;)

People are fighting each other over gov etc as it is, imagine what would happen if gov equals 100 quid in the bank with goa's blessing?
think the present idea was Sony is selling the items you are not allowed to sell the ingame items still
 

Kami

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Gear said:
The point however is that this will eventually shut down all gamers from having a go at the proper farming spots as they'll be perma camped by traders.

We have all farmed/camped this and that to get some in-game money, but after a point you think, fuck it, I have enough now, time to move on and enjoy. Imagine however if you could just turn the in-game money into real life cash! You never have enough ;)

People are fighting each other over gov etc as it is, imagine what would happen if gov equals 100 quid in the bank with goa's blessing?
They wont have to since the items would be sold by the company (GOA or Mythic) and not by in-game traders. Happens already as we all know with in-game traders, it's just the company taking advantage of it.

Personally I'd rather pay 1 or 2 hours out of my wage for something than camp it for 6hours+ which is the current case with most artifacts. I'm not saying I'd pay for everything, hell I'd still want to do the fun stuff but at least I'd have the choice.
 

old.Whoodoo

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Lets see the prices before we flame, GoV for £30 seems a shit load to me, but as its now selling for 30p on excal (mid anyway), and 20p is about £22 on ebay. Artifacts especially seem to be poor in this respect, as if you decide to leave the game, you cant trade it again for cash asits locked to your toon. Then how do you value your toon; time+subs(-random%) + items value on the auction site?

Then consider the tax situation, and it has been shown that people can already make a living out of PL/ Cash Farming, this will be no different.

Then theres the cut the company takes, fook that we say as it becomes legel to seel items in game and we all head off to ebay or game forums like this one to sell commission free!:twak:

Theres valid arguements to and for, but before both sides look at things from a money generating point of view, think about why people sell items in this fashion...supply and demand, as most have said, 90% of MMORPG players cannot afford the RL time to obtain MLs/ Artis / Major raids to get this gear, and therefore perhaps this needs addressing to compensate.
 

Dukat

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I think Jacobs has a point, SOE is just leading the industry down a path that will eventually turn the whole idea of MMO's into RL money making rather than fun.
 

Kami

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Dukat said:
I think Jacobs has a point, SOE is just leading the industry down a path that will eventually turn the whole idea of MMO's into RL money making rather than fun.
leading? said it once and I'll say it again. Ultima started this FIVE YEARS AGO if not more :p

oh and Whoodoo - totally agree, even if you are a mid :)
 

Tay

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Malena said:
link too the article

I couldnt edit my post soo here is the article link


Yea think soo too I got mixed feelings how this will end
I dont really care, the mythic guy is just crying because Sony came up with a semi decent idea, there is good points and bad points with it.

The fact that it is Sony endorsed and support means that if you sell your item or char or special weapon then you'd be protected from somebody claiming they were hacked etc.

MMO's are time sinks, anything that takes that away cant be all bad, my Armsman was leveled the old school way, it took bloody ages (35+days), my necro which was the 5-6th level 50 necro on the server took 15-20% of the time , I have PL chars with just 2-3 days on them at 50, my heretic has 5-6ish days played (@49.5) much of that was in RVR.

Catacoombs for leveling is just pathetically simple, therefore the hard work element of this MMO simply isnt there anymore. Therefore that should not be a reason to dis what Sony is doing.

I feel a bit robbed that the effort I put into leveling some of my early chars is dimminished by the fact Mythic have made it soo easy to level now but I wont go on a crusade like Mythic are towards Sony for people selling thier hard earned stuff/chars.

I'll follow the discussion myself to see how it pans out.
 

Kagato

Fledgling Freddie
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It'll be funny fighting some prat that just spent £200 buying an equipped character and not having a clue how to play it properly.

Easy rps for the old timers.
 

Sun_Tzu

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This is a pretty stupid idea - as Mark Jacobs said, it'll just lead to perma-camping of important places. Not to mention, it seems ripe for corporate abuse; for example, the US servers of DAoC have already had to deal with Adena?, which is apparently some Chinese corporation that camps artis and sells the plat from them on eBay or what-have-you. Its probably going to lead to increased CSR presence - "Players X/Y stole the mob I was camping for so-many-hours", times however many profitable mobs there are.

I realize its not a new idea - In fact, I remember hearing that someone bought an online island in an MMO for something like $12,000? - but it doesn't make it any better for SOE. And, not to mention, they're going to be taking a cut of whatever is sold most likely, which says to me that they're just doing it for the profit, and damn the rest of them.

It was bad enough with the /pizza command or whatever the heck they put in for EQ2 - it just seems like profit whoring.
 

enkor

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why on earth would you want to buy a character in a pve-only game?
 

Malena

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Kagato said:
It'll be funny fighting some prat that just spent £200 buying an equipped character and not having a clue how to play it properly.

Easy rps for the old timers.
yea I was like thinking in the same direction there :twak:
 

Malena

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Sun_Tzu said:
This is a pretty stupid idea - as Mark Jacobs said, it'll just lead to perma-camping of important places. Not to mention, it seems ripe for corporate abuse; for example, the US servers of DAoC have already had to deal with Adena?, which is apparently some Chinese corporation that camps artis and sells the plat from them on eBay or what-have-you. Its probably going to lead to increased CSR presence - "Players X/Y stole the mob I was camping for so-many-hours", times however many profitable mobs there are.

I realize its not a new idea - In fact, I remember hearing that someone bought an online island in an MMO for something like $12,000? - but it doesn't make it any better for SOE. And, not to mention, they're going to be taking a cut of whatever is sold most likely, which says to me that they're just doing it for the profit, and damn the rest of them.

It was bad enough with the /pizza command or whatever the heck they put in for EQ2 - it just seems like profit whoring.

Still it's only the SOE (Sony) who can sell the items and the stuff its still not legaly too sell stuff on EBAY due to why bother buy its from ebay btw when you can goo shop that sword from Sony and ingame too
 

Gear

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What you don't seem to realize is that at the current state maybe it is difficult to get something like gov etc, but at least you have a bloody chance! People will still respect your right to camp it, they'll give you time to form a group and pull the mob if you can. If this turns to real cash, you'll face the situation where you'll be camping whatever, and as soon as it pops XX1, XX2, XX3 and XX4 move in, make the kill, and you're left there holding your knob!

Not that this is not happening, but at least at the moment it is not endorsed by the company that runs the game, which in turn puts some pressure to perspective sellers.

Looking at the side of the gamer, let's not forget it's a bloody game! Play, have fun, enjoy! If you think that you can't compete cause you can't spend the time to get that uber item 1) don't get it and keep on having fun, 2) play something else! I rather spend my money getting something for ME, than my digital toons anyway ;)
 

Oboy

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There is a game thats free to download and play but you buy all the stuff ingame for RL-cash
Game is called Project Entropia
seems to work but you have to be rich irl to get a high skill in the game. And patches and stuff have to be done real carefully, it isnt fun finding out that ur $2000 armor just been hit by the nerfbat.
 

Iceforge

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Hmmm..

I can't stop to think about if they will get legal problems with their other rules then...

As they say, they will sell something ingame (Selling stuff on a market that would not exist without them) and do not allow others to enter the market (which they control, aka, their servers/game) but the question would be if that is accually legal?

America have very strict laws against monopoly and I think it can be a very tough bargain whatever or not a in-game market should be a free market, if they allow RL cash trades to be done.
When they opened their store, they sorta said that paying real cash for ingame property is legal, but I seriously doubt they would win in court, if someone decided to test if they was allowed to sell as well, I think they would end up having to let others sell on their servers.

Take a non-virtual example, side products!

We have trade goods X, which is a nice little gadget of some sort, millions buy the gadget, it is produced by Y

Now producer Z makes product Q which can be applied to product X and can not be used together with anything else....

Could producer Y then just stop producer Z? I dont think he could, as he dont own the rights for extra gadgets to his product?

-I might be wrong, but I think that is how it is...
 

Phuzzy

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Let's face it, if you want to be competitive in RvR you not only have to know your character & put in your RvR time, you also have to put in endless hours & days & weeks & months camping often boring, frustrating & bugged mob-encounters, and hope that you can find enough like-minded people to do the MLs without LDing or having to log before the encounters finished.

This always gave a huge advantage to people who play at peak-times & have limitless free-time & friends. No amount of skill or the will to put in the necessary effort ever really got you anywhere if you lacked the necessary free-time & available friends at peak hours to get the necessary artes & MLs.

Even with bought items & abilities, you would still be cannon-fodder in RvR if you lack the necessary skill, and you can only hone those skills by putting in the necessary time in RvR.

I can imagine that this would be pretty bad news for those with lots of time but no money who've enjoyed all the advantages to date, but for those with the money but restricted time this would be a dream come true!

Given the option of forking out a few extra £'s for the missing items & abilities & then porting to emain, I know what my personal choice would be :D

A no-Toa server would achieve the same though & would be vastly preferable IMHO.
 

Ssera

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Sun_Tzu said:
In fact, I remember hearing that someone bought an online island in an MMO for something like $12,000?
Project Entropia btw if no one else has said it. The thing is that in that game you can convert in-game money into irl money.

edit: ah just noticed Oboy mentioned it too ;)
 

Job

The Carl Pilkington of Freddyshouse
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Ha this is so frekin funny.

People are PAYING for other people to get them something which has been
CODED to be difficult to get.

An endless supply of 'GOODS' that can just be created in a virtual world at no cost???????

The game writers make something you want, by
1: making shed loads of crap stuff
2: making a few uber items which you will pay for, but have no value apart from the fact that the game coders make them desirable by their rareness.
3: Then they make loads of them and a NEW item comes out that everyone wants.
The value of these items has no bearing whatsoever on real world issues like avaliability, transport or labour costs.
4: As Matt points out, the click of a mouse could render 1000's of pounds worth of virtual goods worthless.

This is a stupid as making your dreams worth cash.
 

Thorwyn

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Compare it to Magic cards (or any other trading card game). It´s the same thing.
Useless in the "real world", WotC can produce thousands of Black Loti at the producing cost of a Mountain, yet they decidede to make them rare and desirable by placing them in between a pile of useless crap. And guess what: people are paying insane prices for them to have them in their decks and if you´re lucky, you´re pulling one out of your booster that you´re buying for a pound (yeah, I know, Lotus is of print... just an example, you can replace it with any other top level card).
It´s the very same mechanism and you can find it anywhere, where certain items are rare and people are trying to collect them. If we´re trying to approach the problem from the "value of an item" POV, then we´re gonna bump into an entire world of "no real value" items.
I`m not trying to defend the idea, just pointing out that value can´t be measured solely by the points you mentioned.
 

Malena

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First off I realy dont know who can changes titels in this forums
some one have change the titel for this post and

I dont like this at all I would never write a post titel as it is now :flame:
 

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