simple and effective vs complex and less effective

[Talivar]

After watching kagatos vid and seeing all the replys telling him to use more skill/weps ect i just wanna know why ppl think complex is better than simple.
Take me for example i played pretty much same way as kagato i.e no positionals .i spammed taunt and used parry/evade styles as backup,capped parry and thats about it.Add in tri weild and flurry and thats me summed up.
But it worked like it works of kagato and others.So my point is is it sometimes better to be simple and effective if u still beat the ppl who use more "skillfull" and complex routines.
Vampire is a perfect example, ppl say use parry/evade buffs and end tap a lot and use all these styles and haste buff and various debuffs/buffs from vE/DEm spec, yet these vamps also say we not so OP,I on the other hand will be fully honest and say what i do takes no skill but it works,all i do is power tap if poss, Hot,charge and then normaly spam taunt and claw.
So if this tactic works better than the complex 1s is it lame or optimal?

 

[Stunned]

m16 vs ak47 simplicity works but can be outperformed.

 

[Talivar]

Thats the point tho just look at kagatos vid for proof
In daoc maybe simple is the key

 

[Mas]

But then comes the one button brigade bashers, or are we only talking melee here ?

 

[Talivar]

Any class,ppl always always say if u not optimal u a noob but my point is what if 1 button or very simple tactics are optimal?
If other classes all of a sudden got a boost and became most OP ingame they wouldnt quit so dont let the WL whine get to you m8, some of the most famous and seen as most skilled players here have at some point played Zerkers/Sorcs and the other classes that where said to be lame OP 1 button classes at that time,and they didnt stop playing em

 

[Danamyr]

m16 vs ak47 simplicity works but can be outperformed.

An M16 doesn't outperform an AK47. The AK has by far the simpler design, is easier to maintain and has a larger calibre round.

Now, if you'd said M16 > L85A1 I may have agreed with you

 

[Stunned]

An M16 doesn't outperform an AK47. The AK has by far the simpler design, is easier to maintain and has a larger calibre round.

Worse precision fire and long range performance.

I was trying to point out the situational benefits of each.

 

[Danamyr]

And worse precision fire.

Nonsense. The AK is a very accurate weapon. If you are going to fire it as though you're Tupac Shakur, then of course you won't hit anything, but it'd be the same with the M16 or any assault rifle in automatic mode.

The AK chassis is the basis for the Dragonov sniper rifle, one of the finest anywhere

I understand the point of the analogy you were attempting to make, but the example you used was flawed.

 

[Stunned]

Just happened to see a documentary on discovery awhile ago where they compared the two and came to those conclusions.

But I guess you're an irl expert on the issue and I'll gladly rest my case.

 

[Danamyr]

Just happened to see a documentary on discovery awhile ago where they compared the two and came to those conclusions.

But I guess you're an irl expert on the issue and I'll gladly rest my case.

I've fired them both IRL (was in the Army for 14 yrs), so just my opinions and those of my former colleagues who also fired them.

The HK53 was the nicest weapon I ever fired, makes a sound like a dog barking - frickin' awesome

 

[Chronictank]

Any class,ppl always always say if u not optimal u a noob but my point is what if 1 button or very simple tactics are optimal?
If other classes all of a sudden got a boost and became most OP ingame they wouldnt quit so dont let the WL whine get to you m8, some of the most famous and seen as most skilled players here have at some point played Zerkers/Sorcs and the other classes that where said to be lame OP 1 button classes at that time,and they didnt stop playing em

zerkers who spam doublefrost are not the most skilled players.
The ones that actually finish chains and use other styles from their spec lines for optimal end usage/dmg are.

Example;
most people use dfrost with snowsquall backup meaning you lose most the rear chain dmg which is greater than dfrost and snowsquall alone.
Also most dont use styles from their spec lines, for instance axe has a anytime melee speed debuff with a 100% snare off it on a chain which 70% the berserkers i talk to dont even know existed.

i generally pillager any tanks in the way while im in transit to my next target and use plunderer to snare them before i start styling since PF was made useless now

 

[vintervargen]

and then i took my lightsabre and killed you both.

btw talivar, try and play a support char in a simplistic way - aka only heal :b

 

[Chronictank]

and then i took my lightsabre and killed you both.

hax0r

 

[Konah]

I'm sure i read somewhere that the US forces in Vietnam thought the M16 was a piece of shit (due to overheating/jamming and overcomplexity/number of moving parts in jungle conditions) and they woulda won 'Nam if they had AK's!

Use what works for you. At the end of the day an anytime style >>> 'You fail to perform your...'

 

[fl3a]

axe has a anytime melee speed debuff with a 100% snare off it on a chain which 70% the berserkers i talk to dont even know existed.

how many of those berserkers you talked to had ever been axe spec?

 

[rvn]

simplicty > complexity if you dont handle it yes, however with positionals and backupstyles you can easily backup complex things with simple things

and imo, simplicity get the job done if you have an advantage class wise, but in a tough call complexity > simplicity.

and imo, daoc hasnt got so much "skills" to improve in with 1on1, class/specc/ras can win many fights alone =P

solo imo you have got the:

movement is most important for melee imo (how to land styles on enemy strafeing, or running thru, and also landing your own, or preventing him from hitting - yeah i know some of you think this is lame, but its possible to improve and be better in this, and with training its easier to hit people strafeing..)

landing styles (timeing of weapon speed and backing up styles - very simple, but some seem to fail it in a stressed situation ;o)

keeping overview (panning), to prepare yourself for adds.

judgeing @ timed abilitys.


oh and depending on specc on your vampiir, you cant claw yourself to a win against all enemys, my own lowbie vampiir specced ve/de has to land fumble debuff in order to stand a chance vs high rr tanks (wich you can also see in kagatos vid, when the vampiirs had fumble on him he was going down slowly but sure (body resist buff and so on made it a short duration tho).)

for example a warrior switching haveing shield up from start in duel, then switching 2h, running thru, hitting bakc pos at the same time, then switching back to shield instantly all before the enemy has attacked once again and performing this entire duel will do alot better than those just doing damage during slam, or with 1h or with pure 2h entire fight.

figthing vs shield users you _have_ to run thru if the enemy has any decent block at all, unless you are a dw:er, even then its best if you do...


its things like this that makes complexity > simplicity if you can pull it off.

 

[rvn]

personally even if i get slightly annoyed in nf when people strfe (was ALOT better in old frontiers) i still prefer the challenge when people strafe, other than just ./stick and perform reactive styles with backed up anytimes, its doable while watching a movie ffs - almost like pveing =P

and also when ./sticking, there is very little that you can control yourself, considering that everyone should be able to land reactive evade/block/parry styles, theone with best template/specc/RA/ least misses/most crits will come out on top.

 

[raid]

If simple gets the job done without gimping the overall effectiveness and you're happy with it, i don't really see any reason to do things more complex way.

However if talking about 1on1 melee fight in daoc, I believe some "tricks" can greatly improve performance, still depending on class ofc... Like kagato said in many situations it may be best for polearmsman to let enemies style on him, but thats not the case for most classes. If both sides just /face or /stick and spam reactionary style(s) with anytime backup it greatly decreases the difference between good and bad player. I find it funny when people first say theres no skill in daoc/its all down to class imbalance and then whine about lame strafe or runthrough in next post.

vintervargen brought up similiar discussion regarding our (groove) healer play earlier, his opinion was our healers are crap since 2 of us mostly just heal instead of interrupting. While the healers being crap part is very likely true regarding myself, still the reason for not interrupting much is that with the setup we use (sm, bd, 2zerker) we have a dedicated interrupter on a typical tank spot - we don't really need more interrupts, but heavy healing is often necessary because of no bodyguard. It sure makes the healer more simple to play, but playing complex ("good") would just get the grp killed more. Thus, in my opinion, in some cases simple play can be well more effective.

 

[Flimgoblin]

you can move around in combat without having to strafe in circles like it's quake.

Strafing to get around defences and get off positionals would be fine if it wasn't entirely based on lag. Yeah you can backoff and hammer /face to reduce it but depending on pings it's not always effective.

I'd class it as "skillful" as "knowing when to windowdrag" in my opinion.

 

[Ging]

Some excellent and valid pov's here. Since running my merc in rvr i've been trying to use positionals rather than anytime (due to the obvious benefits). Due to strafing/lag I have found it quite hard to get the timing right, improving that "skill" will greatly benefit me and my group.

 

[Ronso]

Nonsense. The AK is a very accurate weapon. If you are going to fire it as though you're Tupac Shakur, then of course you won't hit anything, but it'd be the same with the M16 or any assault rifle in automatic mode.

The AK chassis is the basis for the Dragonov sniper rifle, one of the finest anywhere

I understand the point of the analogy you were attempting to make, but the example you used was flawed.

Lets make love ...

But seriously though - simplicity works better however you dont want to be a 'one button skills' bouy -

Like a drummer in a song ...you play the basic beats that get you through and if there is an opening at the end of the show to let yourself shine a bit then feel free - just because you dont do it doesnt mean you cant do it .

 

[rvn]

you can move around in combat without having to strafe in circles like it's quake.

Strafing to get around defences and get off positionals would be fine if it wasn't entirely based on lag. Yeah you can backoff and hammer /face to reduce it but depending on pings it's not always effective.

I'd class it as "skillful" as "knowing when to windowdrag" in my opinion.

maybe a problem for people on modem, but that cant be common nowdays?

with experience @ lagg, and knowing your own ping in daoc you can predetermin where to move as melee to land styles if the enemy is strafeing, depening on what method he uses and how good he is.

srtafeing is not allways the best option either to land a pos, works to do a turn and run to the left of the person you are attacking, spamming face and side pos =P but the enemy would still see you lagging away some times, as thats what happens sometimes when you move fast and hit face.

 

[rvn]

you can move around in combat without having to strafe in circles like it's quake.

Strafing to get around defences and get off positionals would be fine if it wasn't entirely based on lag. Yeah you can backoff and hammer /face to reduce it but depending on pings it's not always effective.

I'd class it as "skillful" as "knowing when to windowdrag" in my opinion.

strafeing when not attacking someone doesnt require much from the player, but to time attacks at the same time as strafeing to land positionals requires timeing with bot styles and movement.

against strafe you can do something, against window drag you cant even attack at all

there is also sevaral things other than backing of and ./face

 

[Chronictank]

how many of those berserkers you talked to had ever been axe spec?

almost everyone was axe spec back in the day

 

[[NO]Subedai]

40axe 40hammer ftw, with ml10 plaguebringer, malice axe and hammer battler

as to counter strafe, constanly unsticking and resticking is pretty effective against 90% of strafers out there, other 10% its not really worth sticking atall, and /face is nice but if good they sprint away at instant u do that so its kinda risky.

 

[Chronictank]

with ml10 plaguebringer
.

givf

 

[Beltorak]

Simplicity or Complexity... Think the basic principle is to make the most out of the time in a fight.Making fast decisions and plan 2-3 moves ahead is what makes a skilled player. I wont agruee about some classes being harder than others and I can only speak from point of view, but having a few nice long fights makes my head damn tired and my fingers stiff.

 

[Kagato]

I like simplicity in that I minimise my style options to only the best at my disposal and I group all my similer abilities onto one quickbar etc, All my warlord ml's are on one quickbar, styles and ra's on my main and items on my 3rd and so on, I like it 'neat'.

Whilst I try to simplify things I don't think my playstyle is as simple as people presume, just because im not strafing about. I just have enough confidence in my own character to win the fight without needing to rely on shitty game coding to win, if you have to rely on exploiting out of view errors then you obviously can't have much faith in your character.
But im degressing from the point.

Even with my set-up I still have 7 styles on my QB

Commonely I set Rage as primary, Crip Blow as back up, if Rage lands i'll set Rage as primary again with Poleaxe as back-up (as Rage out performs the follow up still, good one mythic !), If Rage lands again then rinse and repeat, If not Poleaxe is still tasty and go back to CB as back-up.

If Rage never landed then set as primary again with Mangle as back-up, then follow pattern above, and keep trying till Rage lands, constantly optimising for best Damage potential.

That is not simply but its not complicated either if your used to the styles, now I could make it more complicated by introducing my Executionar parry reactionary, but theres very few people who would try to melee me down without styles and nearly all tanks carry end pots. Am I being to simple by not allowing for this rare circumstance?

Thats just using 4 of my styles though I think have my 3 positional options for when I get the drop on the enemy or for dealing with casters. No strafing needed but I don't see it being any simpler to the style chains anyone else uses.

I could go hybrid and make it even more complex but I see little point, I gain slam which is readily purgeble and then lose all self defense when pole fighting.

 

[rvn]

not if you switch shield when he attacks, and switch pole when you attack.

 

[fl3a]

almost everyone was axe spec back in the day

and 'back in the day' they rly used a lot of styles that werent from LA spec also