Melachi
Fledgling Freddie
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 1,001
I was going to roll a Shadowblade on Mid/Pryd but have now decided that I will roll some other class on Camlann (for various reasons). I was going to wait until I had finished all my testing on Shadowblades, Left-Axe and other stuff but I have decided to post what I know now since I might never finish my testing. First I would like to say, that if you want to take the full potential from a SB the Shadowzerker spec is by far the best, something around;
44->50 Weap
39+ LA
3X Stealth
3X Envenom
0 CS (maybe 10/21/34 if you insist on having them for fun, but really they are quite useless except in some cases, more below)
So hear it is...
First of all: Left Axe
Contrary to popular belief I think Left-Axe is superior to Dual-Wield and Celtic-Dual, that being said there is still things I'm unsure about eg. style damage (more on this later) and also the fact that randomness plays a bigger part in DW & CD than in LA (so LA could still underperform DW/CD due to luck).
Anyway, I'm in 100% agreement with Wyrd on his Left Axe basedamage testing, Ive tested it myself and come to the exact same figures, however I am unsure because I haven't tested it about his Style damage conclusions.
Anyway, as it is Left-Axe skill penalises both main-hand and off-hand base damage based up spec until 110 modified spec. Starting at 62.84% base damage at 1 Spec, raising .34 per level of spec. Concluding from this I can guarantee you that in an ideal situation an Infil and Shadowblade specced equally in DW/LA and in same equipment with same stats will perform Identically. However there are complications and other factors.
If you are going to spec low in Left-Axe (under 20 after bonuses) I urge you not to use two weapons, because in off-hand weaponskill is calculated from Left-Axe spec, so your offhand would have terrible weaponskill and therefore be evaded/parried/blocked/miss far more than your mainhand. Infact during testing I have on occasion Underperformed! the damage of one weapon while dual wielding with a low Left-Axe spec! Which is impossible for a DW/CD user. However at high specs, due to the haste-effect (which is underestimated imo) and extra chance for procs I have found that LA outperforms DW nearly constantly. Though I know that due to the favourite artifacts being slow off-hands Haste-effect isnt used as much anymore (ie Malice). But the extra Procs still is a bonus, especially since ToA with some Artis having amazing procs, and legendary weapons. But one thing that is definetly under used is Damage adds, these really give LA users the upperhand, as they are not modified by LA spec, and allways give damage to both weapons regardless, while DW/CD users have to wait for an off-hand swing for damage to give effect to both weapons. A good Damage-Add like that of a dark runey gives around 35 damage per hand per hit!, imagine a fight where you swing 10 times, thats 700 damage! So if there is a damage add charge on some item you have of 10dps+ of if its possible to get them from Alchemists (not sure) in potion form do.
Envenom:
From simple testing, nothing vigorous I believe this is a really powerfull line. From my experience the Str/Con poison takes away approx 400hp, thats a powerfull hit if you ask me, and from experience as a 5-spec, its roughly the damage PA's did (even less alot of the time) against buffed infiltrators. Also you really cripple Slash/Crush user's Weaponskill, and still really leave a mark on Thrust users too.
The DoT poisons are also great, but Lifebane isnt worth the points imo. The damage these poisons do is often overlooked, they do roughly 300 damage (60x5tics) on most people, coupled with the Envenom, even if you dont swing thats around 700 damage without doing a thing (except waiting for the tics ).
Disease: Unbeleiveable utility poison! Snares, Debuffs Weaponskill, and makes heals half effective (ok so how often do Stealthers get heals in the middle of a fight, but it may affect heal poitions which Arauddry is very partial too, though I have to test this first). Also how many times after winning a fight have you gone somewhere to sit and rest only to see youd been hit by a disease poison and half to wait 2mins for your health to even start comming back?
Snare: Great against Casters, especially if your SZ spec, makes the lack of Creeping Death stun less missed, as they cant get away unless they purge or Quickcast (though theres ways around that but you will prolly get a whine post here)
De-haste poison: Never used it myself, but after thinking about it, if its around 20% dehaste, thats around a 14% drop in your targets damage, ok so their numbers will look bigger when they hit you, but really their damage has gone down.
Mezz poison/ or others from ToA: Dont know aint had em
Critical Strike: All I can say about this line is really just 'fun'. Usefull against casters and in keep defense/offense, but thats about it. Its utility is reduced by the fact that the top level str/con debuff from envenom outdamages PA under 34~ spec.
The Creeping Death stun and the Hammstring chain (massive growth rate!!) are the only really important things, but you have to ask yourself if your an emain go'er, how often do I fight solo casters? How often do I land a PA on an enemy where it made the difirence between winning and loosing (usualy people who are easy to land PA on are quiet slow at reacting and/or fighting with someone else aka adding )? How often do I land it on other stealthers without using Stealth Lore (more on this question later)?
Now im sure bigchief is gonna come here and preach about how easy it is to land PA on other stealthers, but from my expierience you have between 1 and 1.5 seconds to get in position before you are hit by the other stealther, unless they are afk or just dumb where you would have won without PA anyway. Also, many SZ's go for Backstab, I have to ask why? The damage it does is allready cancled by the Str/Con poison (rarely will you hit for 400 damage with BS2 with 10~ CS spec) and it just gives stun immunity too. Its good against casters for bubble bursting? Hit em with snare poison and they wont get away anyway, they will prolly try run and leave themselves open to back positionals.
Summary on CS, points better spent elsewhere, unless you love landing PA, on people, and I can agree its alot of fun at keep takes also .
*cracks fingers, and goes for a smoke (this typing on a laptop is tedious!)
RAs: Not going into these in great detail as NF's changes em!
Toughness: Not a great fan of this, adds 3% which for a SB with roughly 2000hps is 60hp, nothing major. I see alot of SB's going to level 3 in this when theres other stuff thats nicer.
MoPain: Love this one, cant say much on it though except can hugely increase your damage and can have no affect at all, all down to luck.
DuelistReflexs: Havent tested effects exactly, but going by what people say (which is notorious for being wrong) it apparently gives 1.5% extra damage to both hands which is like 5 trains of Left-Axe, sounds nice, but personally would only take it to 2, until high rr where I might take it to 4, 5 is way to expensive.
Purge: A must, is a fight winner in itself sometimes, and a good get away tool.
RoFire: Never tryed this sadly, but depending on what damage it does at the difirent levels, this could be really really good, due to only a 15min timer, and LA mechanics for Damage adds!
Starting Stats & Race: Unfortuantely the race part is a no-brainer, really Kobolds have little to no advantages over Norse, due to Dex having very very little effect on SB's (apart from 50% towards Evade) and qui haste bonus being caped at 250, which Norse can reach with buffs.
As long as Mythic do nothing about the fact that we can only use Str weapons, Id say starting stats to go, 15str 10con, dex is pretty pointless as you will have loads anyway, and quickness with buffs and SC and no aug quick Norse can get you to 241 which is very close to soft cap.
SB's stat priorities go as follows in order of importance: Str, Con, Qui, Dex.
SCing: Try get as close to 10% bonuses to Melee/Style/Haste ToA bonuses as possible, also try get +25 str cap, skimp on Dex if needs be, and even Quickness to a lesser degree.
Buffs: Take em all, even that crap Damage Shield (every bit helps) and resists are important too, give a great chance of beating any inf using heat legendarys for 10 mins.
Haste!: This is golden, bum it off people, or if you duo regulary and your partner has a Shammy bot, make a healer bot yourself for haste. The red one gives you 20% haste, which is roughly like a 14% damage increase in total, dont be put off by the smaller numbers your seeing, you ARE doing more damage. Haste works by increasing your swing speed, while maintaining your base damage, but style damage decreases in proportionaly to your swing speed, (ie if you did 10 style damage every 4 seconds, you would do 5 style damage every 2 seconds).
2H PA's 'the myth': Big numbers, hot air, heres why. (eek long typing )
According to other sources (aint tested myself) the formula for 2h base damage is:
2h Damage = base damage * (1.1 + (.005 * spec))
basically at 50 spec, your base damage is 135% that of the same speed 1h weapon. So lets figure out how much damage our theoretical SB is gonna do with a 2h. His quickness will be 60 for no hasting. His spec is 50 weap / 34 CS / 39 LA, using a 5.3 speed 16.5dps 2h, and a 4.2speed & 3.5speed 1handers.
First the 2h damage base damage.
DPS * SPD * 3 * (1 + (SPD – 2) * .03) = Damage Cap
16.5 * 5.3 * 3 * (1 + (5.3 - 2) * .03) = 288, now lets add the 2h bonus.
288 * 1.35 = 389
Now the PA damage from 34 CS:
Perforate Artery Damage = 75 + CSspec * 9
= 75 + 34 * 9 = 381
So the 2h user does a PA of: 389 + 381 = 770 in 5.3 seconds.
145DPS
Now the LA user:
LA damage = base damage * (0.6284 + 0.0034 * LAspec)
First the Main-hand 4.2speed
DPS * SPD * 3 * (1 + (SPD – 2) * .03) = Damage Cap
16.5 * 4.2 * 3 * (1 + (4.2 - 2) * .03) = 221, now the LA penalty @39LA penalty is 76.1%
so 221 * 0.761 = 168
And the Off-hand 3.5speed
DPS * SPD * 3 * (1 + (SPD – 2) * .03) = Damage Cap
16.5 * 3.5 * 3 * (1 + (3.5 - 2) * .03) = 181, now the LA penalty @39LA penalty is 76.1%
so 221 * 0.761 = 137
So the LA user does base damage of: 168 + 137 = 305
And since PA damage is additive, not multiplive the PA damage figure is the same:
So the 2h user does a PA of: 305 + 381 = 686 in 3.85 seconds.
178DPS
So the 2h user does 770 damage, and the LA user does 686, only 84 in the difirence, but thats just the bare face of it. The LA user is doing 178Damage per second, and the 2H user is doing 145 Damage per second, so in theory the LA user is actually doing more damage! 2H has some application, but really PA is the worst place for the simple reason that 2h gets no extra damage from PA, infact the most effcient PA for DPS, would come from the fastest weapon possible.
Only time when a 2h PA would be usefull is: If you know the PA will kill him outright with a 2h, or if all you plan to do is PA, and then run (like in a keep take on a caster on bm's).
SB's HP bonus: Infiltrators exaggerate it, and Shadowblades down play it. The fact is, its a 5% bonus. The difirence between a buffed infiltrator with and a buffed Shadowblade is anywhere between 90 to 110 hps, that really isnt alot, especially considering 1 realm skill point will give you 3% bonus (toughness 1) makes the advantage even smaller.
Ok thats it for now, I can bet this is really badly worded and tomorow I will come and iron it out and add more, but because im tired Im forgetting important stuff, and writing terribly and I bet its not eye candy atm either, probably all over the place
Feel free to correct me on stuff except grammar and spelling
44->50 Weap
39+ LA
3X Stealth
3X Envenom
0 CS (maybe 10/21/34 if you insist on having them for fun, but really they are quite useless except in some cases, more below)
So hear it is...
First of all: Left Axe
Contrary to popular belief I think Left-Axe is superior to Dual-Wield and Celtic-Dual, that being said there is still things I'm unsure about eg. style damage (more on this later) and also the fact that randomness plays a bigger part in DW & CD than in LA (so LA could still underperform DW/CD due to luck).
Anyway, I'm in 100% agreement with Wyrd on his Left Axe basedamage testing, Ive tested it myself and come to the exact same figures, however I am unsure because I haven't tested it about his Style damage conclusions.
Anyway, as it is Left-Axe skill penalises both main-hand and off-hand base damage based up spec until 110 modified spec. Starting at 62.84% base damage at 1 Spec, raising .34 per level of spec. Concluding from this I can guarantee you that in an ideal situation an Infil and Shadowblade specced equally in DW/LA and in same equipment with same stats will perform Identically. However there are complications and other factors.
If you are going to spec low in Left-Axe (under 20 after bonuses) I urge you not to use two weapons, because in off-hand weaponskill is calculated from Left-Axe spec, so your offhand would have terrible weaponskill and therefore be evaded/parried/blocked/miss far more than your mainhand. Infact during testing I have on occasion Underperformed! the damage of one weapon while dual wielding with a low Left-Axe spec! Which is impossible for a DW/CD user. However at high specs, due to the haste-effect (which is underestimated imo) and extra chance for procs I have found that LA outperforms DW nearly constantly. Though I know that due to the favourite artifacts being slow off-hands Haste-effect isnt used as much anymore (ie Malice). But the extra Procs still is a bonus, especially since ToA with some Artis having amazing procs, and legendary weapons. But one thing that is definetly under used is Damage adds, these really give LA users the upperhand, as they are not modified by LA spec, and allways give damage to both weapons regardless, while DW/CD users have to wait for an off-hand swing for damage to give effect to both weapons. A good Damage-Add like that of a dark runey gives around 35 damage per hand per hit!, imagine a fight where you swing 10 times, thats 700 damage! So if there is a damage add charge on some item you have of 10dps+ of if its possible to get them from Alchemists (not sure) in potion form do.
Envenom:
From simple testing, nothing vigorous I believe this is a really powerfull line. From my experience the Str/Con poison takes away approx 400hp, thats a powerfull hit if you ask me, and from experience as a 5-spec, its roughly the damage PA's did (even less alot of the time) against buffed infiltrators. Also you really cripple Slash/Crush user's Weaponskill, and still really leave a mark on Thrust users too.
The DoT poisons are also great, but Lifebane isnt worth the points imo. The damage these poisons do is often overlooked, they do roughly 300 damage (60x5tics) on most people, coupled with the Envenom, even if you dont swing thats around 700 damage without doing a thing (except waiting for the tics ).
Disease: Unbeleiveable utility poison! Snares, Debuffs Weaponskill, and makes heals half effective (ok so how often do Stealthers get heals in the middle of a fight, but it may affect heal poitions which Arauddry is very partial too, though I have to test this first). Also how many times after winning a fight have you gone somewhere to sit and rest only to see youd been hit by a disease poison and half to wait 2mins for your health to even start comming back?
Snare: Great against Casters, especially if your SZ spec, makes the lack of Creeping Death stun less missed, as they cant get away unless they purge or Quickcast (though theres ways around that but you will prolly get a whine post here)
De-haste poison: Never used it myself, but after thinking about it, if its around 20% dehaste, thats around a 14% drop in your targets damage, ok so their numbers will look bigger when they hit you, but really their damage has gone down.
Mezz poison/ or others from ToA: Dont know aint had em
Critical Strike: All I can say about this line is really just 'fun'. Usefull against casters and in keep defense/offense, but thats about it. Its utility is reduced by the fact that the top level str/con debuff from envenom outdamages PA under 34~ spec.
The Creeping Death stun and the Hammstring chain (massive growth rate!!) are the only really important things, but you have to ask yourself if your an emain go'er, how often do I fight solo casters? How often do I land a PA on an enemy where it made the difirence between winning and loosing (usualy people who are easy to land PA on are quiet slow at reacting and/or fighting with someone else aka adding )? How often do I land it on other stealthers without using Stealth Lore (more on this question later)?
Now im sure bigchief is gonna come here and preach about how easy it is to land PA on other stealthers, but from my expierience you have between 1 and 1.5 seconds to get in position before you are hit by the other stealther, unless they are afk or just dumb where you would have won without PA anyway. Also, many SZ's go for Backstab, I have to ask why? The damage it does is allready cancled by the Str/Con poison (rarely will you hit for 400 damage with BS2 with 10~ CS spec) and it just gives stun immunity too. Its good against casters for bubble bursting? Hit em with snare poison and they wont get away anyway, they will prolly try run and leave themselves open to back positionals.
Summary on CS, points better spent elsewhere, unless you love landing PA, on people, and I can agree its alot of fun at keep takes also .
*cracks fingers, and goes for a smoke (this typing on a laptop is tedious!)
RAs: Not going into these in great detail as NF's changes em!
Toughness: Not a great fan of this, adds 3% which for a SB with roughly 2000hps is 60hp, nothing major. I see alot of SB's going to level 3 in this when theres other stuff thats nicer.
MoPain: Love this one, cant say much on it though except can hugely increase your damage and can have no affect at all, all down to luck.
DuelistReflexs: Havent tested effects exactly, but going by what people say (which is notorious for being wrong) it apparently gives 1.5% extra damage to both hands which is like 5 trains of Left-Axe, sounds nice, but personally would only take it to 2, until high rr where I might take it to 4, 5 is way to expensive.
Purge: A must, is a fight winner in itself sometimes, and a good get away tool.
RoFire: Never tryed this sadly, but depending on what damage it does at the difirent levels, this could be really really good, due to only a 15min timer, and LA mechanics for Damage adds!
Starting Stats & Race: Unfortuantely the race part is a no-brainer, really Kobolds have little to no advantages over Norse, due to Dex having very very little effect on SB's (apart from 50% towards Evade) and qui haste bonus being caped at 250, which Norse can reach with buffs.
As long as Mythic do nothing about the fact that we can only use Str weapons, Id say starting stats to go, 15str 10con, dex is pretty pointless as you will have loads anyway, and quickness with buffs and SC and no aug quick Norse can get you to 241 which is very close to soft cap.
SB's stat priorities go as follows in order of importance: Str, Con, Qui, Dex.
SCing: Try get as close to 10% bonuses to Melee/Style/Haste ToA bonuses as possible, also try get +25 str cap, skimp on Dex if needs be, and even Quickness to a lesser degree.
Buffs: Take em all, even that crap Damage Shield (every bit helps) and resists are important too, give a great chance of beating any inf using heat legendarys for 10 mins.
Haste!: This is golden, bum it off people, or if you duo regulary and your partner has a Shammy bot, make a healer bot yourself for haste. The red one gives you 20% haste, which is roughly like a 14% damage increase in total, dont be put off by the smaller numbers your seeing, you ARE doing more damage. Haste works by increasing your swing speed, while maintaining your base damage, but style damage decreases in proportionaly to your swing speed, (ie if you did 10 style damage every 4 seconds, you would do 5 style damage every 2 seconds).
2H PA's 'the myth': Big numbers, hot air, heres why. (eek long typing )
According to other sources (aint tested myself) the formula for 2h base damage is:
2h Damage = base damage * (1.1 + (.005 * spec))
basically at 50 spec, your base damage is 135% that of the same speed 1h weapon. So lets figure out how much damage our theoretical SB is gonna do with a 2h. His quickness will be 60 for no hasting. His spec is 50 weap / 34 CS / 39 LA, using a 5.3 speed 16.5dps 2h, and a 4.2speed & 3.5speed 1handers.
First the 2h damage base damage.
DPS * SPD * 3 * (1 + (SPD – 2) * .03) = Damage Cap
16.5 * 5.3 * 3 * (1 + (5.3 - 2) * .03) = 288, now lets add the 2h bonus.
288 * 1.35 = 389
Now the PA damage from 34 CS:
Perforate Artery Damage = 75 + CSspec * 9
= 75 + 34 * 9 = 381
So the 2h user does a PA of: 389 + 381 = 770 in 5.3 seconds.
145DPS
Now the LA user:
LA damage = base damage * (0.6284 + 0.0034 * LAspec)
First the Main-hand 4.2speed
DPS * SPD * 3 * (1 + (SPD – 2) * .03) = Damage Cap
16.5 * 4.2 * 3 * (1 + (4.2 - 2) * .03) = 221, now the LA penalty @39LA penalty is 76.1%
so 221 * 0.761 = 168
And the Off-hand 3.5speed
DPS * SPD * 3 * (1 + (SPD – 2) * .03) = Damage Cap
16.5 * 3.5 * 3 * (1 + (3.5 - 2) * .03) = 181, now the LA penalty @39LA penalty is 76.1%
so 221 * 0.761 = 137
So the LA user does base damage of: 168 + 137 = 305
And since PA damage is additive, not multiplive the PA damage figure is the same:
So the 2h user does a PA of: 305 + 381 = 686 in 3.85 seconds.
178DPS
So the 2h user does 770 damage, and the LA user does 686, only 84 in the difirence, but thats just the bare face of it. The LA user is doing 178Damage per second, and the 2H user is doing 145 Damage per second, so in theory the LA user is actually doing more damage! 2H has some application, but really PA is the worst place for the simple reason that 2h gets no extra damage from PA, infact the most effcient PA for DPS, would come from the fastest weapon possible.
Only time when a 2h PA would be usefull is: If you know the PA will kill him outright with a 2h, or if all you plan to do is PA, and then run (like in a keep take on a caster on bm's).
SB's HP bonus: Infiltrators exaggerate it, and Shadowblades down play it. The fact is, its a 5% bonus. The difirence between a buffed infiltrator with and a buffed Shadowblade is anywhere between 90 to 110 hps, that really isnt alot, especially considering 1 realm skill point will give you 3% bonus (toughness 1) makes the advantage even smaller.
Ok thats it for now, I can bet this is really badly worded and tomorow I will come and iron it out and add more, but because im tired Im forgetting important stuff, and writing terribly and I bet its not eye candy atm either, probably all over the place
Feel free to correct me on stuff except grammar and spelling