Shadowblade Info

Melachi

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
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I was going to roll a Shadowblade on Mid/Pryd but have now decided that I will roll some other class on Camlann (for various reasons). I was going to wait until I had finished all my testing on Shadowblades, Left-Axe and other stuff but I have decided to post what I know now since I might never finish my testing. First I would like to say, that if you want to take the full potential from a SB the Shadowzerker spec is by far the best, something around;
44->50 Weap
39+ LA
3X Stealth
3X Envenom
0 CS (maybe 10/21/34 if you insist on having them for fun, but really they are quite useless except in some cases, more below)

So hear it is...

First of all: Left Axe
Contrary to popular belief I think Left-Axe is superior to Dual-Wield and Celtic-Dual, that being said there is still things I'm unsure about eg. style damage (more on this later) and also the fact that randomness plays a bigger part in DW & CD than in LA (so LA could still underperform DW/CD due to luck).
Anyway, I'm in 100% agreement with Wyrd on his Left Axe basedamage testing, Ive tested it myself and come to the exact same figures, however I am unsure because I haven't tested it about his Style damage conclusions.

Anyway, as it is Left-Axe skill penalises both main-hand and off-hand base damage based up spec until 110 modified spec. Starting at 62.84% base damage at 1 Spec, raising .34 per level of spec. Concluding from this I can guarantee you that in an ideal situation an Infil and Shadowblade specced equally in DW/LA and in same equipment with same stats will perform Identically. However there are complications and other factors.

If you are going to spec low in Left-Axe (under 20 after bonuses) I urge you not to use two weapons, because in off-hand weaponskill is calculated from Left-Axe spec, so your offhand would have terrible weaponskill and therefore be evaded/parried/blocked/miss far more than your mainhand. Infact during testing I have on occasion Underperformed! the damage of one weapon while dual wielding with a low Left-Axe spec! Which is impossible for a DW/CD user. However at high specs, due to the haste-effect (which is underestimated imo) and extra chance for procs I have found that LA outperforms DW nearly constantly. Though I know that due to the favourite artifacts being slow off-hands Haste-effect isnt used as much anymore (ie Malice). But the extra Procs still is a bonus, especially since ToA with some Artis having amazing procs, and legendary weapons. But one thing that is definetly under used is Damage adds, these really give LA users the upperhand, as they are not modified by LA spec, and allways give damage to both weapons regardless, while DW/CD users have to wait for an off-hand swing for damage to give effect to both weapons. A good Damage-Add like that of a dark runey gives around 35 damage per hand per hit!, imagine a fight where you swing 10 times, thats 700 damage! So if there is a damage add charge on some item you have of 10dps+ of if its possible to get them from Alchemists (not sure) in potion form do.

Envenom:
From simple testing, nothing vigorous I believe this is a really powerfull line. From my experience the Str/Con poison takes away approx 400hp, thats a powerfull hit if you ask me, and from experience as a 5-spec, its roughly the damage PA's did (even less alot of the time) against buffed infiltrators. Also you really cripple Slash/Crush user's Weaponskill, and still really leave a mark on Thrust users too.
The DoT poisons are also great, but Lifebane isnt worth the points imo. The damage these poisons do is often overlooked, they do roughly 300 damage (60x5tics) on most people, coupled with the Envenom, even if you dont swing thats around 700 damage without doing a thing (except waiting for the tics ).
Disease: Unbeleiveable utility poison! Snares, Debuffs Weaponskill, and makes heals half effective (ok so how often do Stealthers get heals in the middle of a fight, but it may affect heal poitions which Arauddry is very partial too, though I have to test this first). Also how many times after winning a fight have you gone somewhere to sit and rest only to see youd been hit by a disease poison and half to wait 2mins for your health to even start comming back?
Snare: Great against Casters, especially if your SZ spec, makes the lack of Creeping Death stun less missed, as they cant get away unless they purge or Quickcast (though theres ways around that but you will prolly get a whine post here)
De-haste poison: Never used it myself, but after thinking about it, if its around 20% dehaste, thats around a 14% drop in your targets damage, ok so their numbers will look bigger when they hit you, but really their damage has gone down.
Mezz poison/ or others from ToA: Dont know aint had em

Critical Strike: All I can say about this line is really just 'fun'. Usefull against casters and in keep defense/offense, but thats about it. Its utility is reduced by the fact that the top level str/con debuff from envenom outdamages PA under 34~ spec.

The Creeping Death stun and the Hammstring chain (massive growth rate!!) are the only really important things, but you have to ask yourself if your an emain go'er, how often do I fight solo casters? How often do I land a PA on an enemy where it made the difirence between winning and loosing (usualy people who are easy to land PA on are quiet slow at reacting and/or fighting with someone else aka adding :flame: )? How often do I land it on other stealthers without using Stealth Lore (more on this question later)?

Now im sure bigchief is gonna come here and preach about how easy it is to land PA on other stealthers, but from my expierience you have between 1 and 1.5 seconds to get in position before you are hit by the other stealther, unless they are afk or just dumb where you would have won without PA anyway. Also, many SZ's go for Backstab, I have to ask why? The damage it does is allready cancled by the Str/Con poison (rarely will you hit for 400 damage with BS2 with 10~ CS spec) and it just gives stun immunity too. Its good against casters for bubble bursting? Hit em with snare poison and they wont get away anyway, they will prolly try run and leave themselves open to back positionals.

Summary on CS, points better spent elsewhere, unless you love landing PA, on people, and I can agree its alot of fun at keep takes also :) .

*cracks fingers, and goes for a smoke :p (this typing on a laptop is tedious!)

RAs: Not going into these in great detail as NF's changes em!
Toughness: Not a great fan of this, adds 3% which for a SB with roughly 2000hps is 60hp, nothing major. I see alot of SB's going to level 3 in this when theres other stuff thats nicer.
MoPain: Love this one, cant say much on it though except can hugely increase your damage and can have no affect at all, all down to luck.
DuelistReflexs: Havent tested effects exactly, but going by what people say (which is notorious for being wrong) it apparently gives 1.5% extra damage to both hands which is like 5 trains of Left-Axe, sounds nice, but personally would only take it to 2, until high rr where I might take it to 4, 5 is way to expensive.
Purge: A must, is a fight winner in itself sometimes, and a good get away tool.
RoFire: Never tryed this sadly, but depending on what damage it does at the difirent levels, this could be really really good, due to only a 15min timer, and LA mechanics for Damage adds!

Starting Stats & Race: Unfortuantely the race part is a no-brainer, really Kobolds have little to no advantages over Norse, due to Dex having very very little effect on SB's (apart from 50% towards Evade) and qui haste bonus being caped at 250, which Norse can reach with buffs.
As long as Mythic do nothing about the fact that we can only use Str weapons, Id say starting stats to go, 15str 10con, dex is pretty pointless as you will have loads anyway, and quickness with buffs and SC and no aug quick Norse can get you to 241 which is very close to soft cap.
SB's stat priorities go as follows in order of importance: Str, Con, Qui, Dex.

SCing: Try get as close to 10% bonuses to Melee/Style/Haste ToA bonuses as possible, also try get +25 str cap, skimp on Dex if needs be, and even Quickness to a lesser degree.

Buffs: Take em all, even that crap Damage Shield (every bit helps) and resists are important too, give a great chance of beating any inf using heat legendarys for 10 mins.
Haste!: This is golden, bum it off people, or if you duo regulary and your partner has a Shammy bot, make a healer bot yourself for haste. The red one gives you 20% haste, which is roughly like a 14% damage increase in total, dont be put off by the smaller numbers your seeing, you ARE doing more damage. Haste works by increasing your swing speed, while maintaining your base damage, but style damage decreases in proportionaly to your swing speed, (ie if you did 10 style damage every 4 seconds, you would do 5 style damage every 2 seconds).

2H PA's 'the myth': Big numbers, hot air, heres why. (eek long typing :mad: )

According to other sources (aint tested myself) the formula for 2h base damage is:
2h Damage = base damage * (1.1 + (.005 * spec))
basically at 50 spec, your base damage is 135% that of the same speed 1h weapon. So lets figure out how much damage our theoretical SB is gonna do with a 2h. His quickness will be 60 for no hasting. His spec is 50 weap / 34 CS / 39 LA, using a 5.3 speed 16.5dps 2h, and a 4.2speed & 3.5speed 1handers.

First the 2h damage base damage.
DPS * SPD * 3 * (1 + (SPD – 2) * .03) = Damage Cap
16.5 * 5.3 * 3 * (1 + (5.3 - 2) * .03) = 288, now lets add the 2h bonus.
288 * 1.35 = 389

Now the PA damage from 34 CS:

Perforate Artery Damage = 75 + CSspec * 9
= 75 + 34 * 9 = 381

So the 2h user does a PA of: 389 + 381 = 770 in 5.3 seconds.
145DPS

Now the LA user:
LA damage = base damage * (0.6284 + 0.0034 * LAspec)

First the Main-hand 4.2speed
DPS * SPD * 3 * (1 + (SPD – 2) * .03) = Damage Cap
16.5 * 4.2 * 3 * (1 + (4.2 - 2) * .03) = 221, now the LA penalty @39LA penalty is 76.1%
so 221 * 0.761 = 168

And the Off-hand 3.5speed
DPS * SPD * 3 * (1 + (SPD – 2) * .03) = Damage Cap
16.5 * 3.5 * 3 * (1 + (3.5 - 2) * .03) = 181, now the LA penalty @39LA penalty is 76.1%
so 221 * 0.761 = 137

So the LA user does base damage of: 168 + 137 = 305
And since PA damage is additive, not multiplive the PA damage figure is the same:
So the 2h user does a PA of: 305 + 381 = 686 in 3.85 seconds.
178DPS

So the 2h user does 770 damage, and the LA user does 686, only 84 in the difirence, but thats just the bare face of it. The LA user is doing 178Damage per second, and the 2H user is doing 145 Damage per second, so in theory the LA user is actually doing more damage! 2H has some application, but really PA is the worst place for the simple reason that 2h gets no extra damage from PA, infact the most effcient PA for DPS, would come from the fastest weapon possible.

Only time when a 2h PA would be usefull is: If you know the PA will kill him outright with a 2h, or if all you plan to do is PA, and then run (like in a keep take on a caster on bm's).

SB's HP bonus: Infiltrators exaggerate it, and Shadowblades down play it. The fact is, its a 5% bonus. The difirence between a buffed infiltrator with and a buffed Shadowblade is anywhere between 90 to 110 hps, that really isnt alot, especially considering 1 realm skill point will give you 3% bonus (toughness 1) makes the advantage even smaller.

Ok thats it for now, I can bet this is really badly worded and tomorow I will come and iron it out and add more, but because im tired Im forgetting important stuff, and writing terribly and I bet its not eye candy atm either, probably all over the place :p

Feel free to correct me on stuff except grammar and spelling :p
 

Ctuchik

FH is my second home
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i acually read it all :)

tho i dont know much (if anything) about SB's. the info here is more or less the same as ive seen elsewhere :)
 

Tuppe

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 23, 2003
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834
hmm remember allso dw/cd/laxe giving penalty to evade, 2h weapon dont do that.

well, inf have few more spec points, giving more ways to spec effective and same time have effective, example, cs line.
in my eyeys, if assasin dont use cs line? something is wrong.
 

Melachi

Fledgling Freddie
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After thinking about it, I realised that most people wouldn't be arsed reading all that, and I cant say I blame em :p

I could have compacted it far better and written it better but I didnt at the time :/

Anyway just a quick summary of what I said in the huge post:

Auto-train your SB
Spec one of the SZ specs
Get Battler/Malice combo or HeatLW/Malice or something of the sort
get a good SC suit with +25str +10~melee/haste/style bonuses
get a haste bot
get AF/Damage Add/End Regen/Heal charges
Use all your poisons

And I guarantee you, you will beat more infils than you lose to.

One thing I notice on Pryd is, far more SB's are full time SB's compared to alot of the infils seem to be just alts, and so alot are never kitted out the best, and so go down easy if you are.

[O-Topic] Anyone ever noticed, that it seems like Arauddry allways hits cap damage ? oO
 

Cylian

Fledgling Freddie
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Melachi said:
[O-Topic] Anyone ever noticed, that it seems like Arauddry allways hits cap damage ? oO

either he hits for cap, or his cap is way higher than any style a SB can get.
don't ask me how.
 

Tuppe

Fledgling Freddie
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Dec 23, 2003
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there has been some chitchat how sb:s usually still do quite good comparing some infs.
when you choose sb to class, you know its tough choice and many areas behind infs and ns:s.
you need all possible tools, tricks, anything what game offer so you have change survive/kill opponent, because sb:s know this they get all candys game offer, when same time infs run still around sc:d set, 1-2 artifacts.

when most infs start work around own class like most sb:s do at this moment, situation can be quite nasty.
 

emma

Loyal Freddie
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Dec 30, 2003
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755
Cylian said:
either he hits for cap, or his cap is way higher than any style a SB can get.
don't ask me how.
His cap with Duel Shadows is around 36x odd. By comparison my cap with Snowsqual (higher growth rate, lower spec level) is 330 exactly.

For me to get that cap i need relics (doh everyone does tbh even Arauddry) Heat LW and a stlong Heat debuff. Arauddry hits close to cap because 90% of his targets are slash weak (SB/Hunter), and ofc his SC template is made for slash damage, giving him close to 10% melee damage/style damage/melee speed.

Infil/NS damage caps will always be higher than SB`s when duel wielding weapons because of how LA mechanics work, but and this is a big but. If a CD/DW users offhand does not swing, SB`s offhand can make up for that extra damage if we have atleast 10% relic bonus.

Without that bonus and CD/DW can out damage LA by a fair ammount.
 

Darksword

Can't get enough of FH
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so what ur saying is coz i only auto trained 2 24, aint got a haste bot, HATE toa, and only have like +7 str cap bonus, and even with fully capped stats (except like 1 energy, 5 spirit, and 18hits) im still gunna loose 2 infils? :( ah well i dont care :D me lubles gimp SB :D
 

Darksword

Can't get enough of FH
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oh and duelists reflexs is like having +8 in offhand skill i believe, so given that a NS on average specs 18 (i think, i went 24 on mine) celtic duel, then gets DR 3=24+18=42+11 from SC thats 53 celtic duel, and thats gotta b hitting with offhand on a regular basis + even more from RR + they get haste in there druid bots (we get end gen which does nothing for us in rvr as we arent usually close 2 BB) + they get str/dex based weapons :)

omg cant wait till i piss off 2 hib :D (but by then it will b NF so u lot r stuck wid me for a ickle but unless u wanna donate 8plat? :D
 

Iceflower

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Melachi said:
After thinking about it, I realised that most people wouldn't be arsed reading all that, and I cant say I blame em :p

I could have compacted it far better and written it better but I didnt at the time :/

Anyway just a quick summary of what I said in the huge post:

Auto-train your SB
Spec one of the SZ specs
Get Battler/Malice combo or HeatLW/Malice or something of the sort
get a good SC suit with +25str +10~melee/haste/style bonuses
get a haste bot
get AF/Damage Add/End Regen/Heal charges
Use all your poisons

And I guarantee you, you will beat more infils than you lose to.

One thing I notice on Pryd is, far more SB's are full time SB's compared to alot of the infils seem to be just alts, and so alot are never kitted out the best, and so go down easy if you are.

Heh the Reader's Digest verison, how american of you :D

First topic was a very good read btw, very unusal on this forum, thanks for spending some time writing it.
 

Foadon

Fledgling Freddie
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Jan 17, 2004
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very nicely written, is very useful, dont have a SB myself but still interesting to see how one should work best
one small suggestion is that when you have to choose between melee speed and qui, qui > melee speed in some cases, if u have to gimp 1 slot to get 2% melee speed for example its better to get high uv so u can get an extra 25+ or smt qui for swing speed, ofc if u can get both thats much better
most mids dont bother with matter resist, dno how it would work with SB, but it doesnt seem very important to have besides for crafted dot
also spirit u can prolly drop or not work your way to cap it atleast, all u need basically is melee resists body heat energy and cold, those are the fotm LW's
 

Damon_D

Fledgling Freddie
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Dec 23, 2003
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585
so basicly your saying that you need to maximise you SB to the max !!!
If you want to have a chance aginst semi kitted alt's running around for tralalala... Guesse what we allready knew SB's sucked , and saying that LA is the best dual-wield mechanisem , IF you do NOT waste points speccing in the class specific Critical Strike line just proves it stinks imho.....
 

Tasslehoff

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Ýeah, it's quite good written and all Melachi, now come back! And let's go hunt DF again :D
 
N

Nymrin

Guest
My reply to LA being the best dual ability. Ha ha. With that said, I'll atleast give credit that the rest is well thought out.

It seems to be true though that a fully ToA:ified Shadowblade with full melee caps and about 5-6 artifacts - that turn your enemy into beetles, cantilopes, flying fishmen and what not - will be able to win over a semi-arsed infiltrator. Again, whoop-de-doo. Honestly though, lately, before 1.69 I haven't had as much trouble with Dragonfang, most of the trouble is actually all the strafe-abusers. I'd give them 9 second stun any day if it stopped them from strafe-abusing. Sad thing to see that even some RR10(11?) people pull those, and that's just plain pathetic when you already have such a huge RR edge.

SB Summary:
+ roll a norse sb
+ get 5-6 artifacts
+ cap melee bonuses
+ get a buffbot
+ prepare a lot of tissues (else you'll cry your keyboard wet)

Weaponskill seems to play a lot of tricks out there. Typical SB vs Infil summary for me is:
- Buffbots (you can't really take them out from the equation as long as buffs aren't ranged) and the concentration-based spec-AF buff plays a large roll.
- Infils get higher weaponskills easier (due to SB weapon-type limitation).
- Infils are weak against crush and unfortunately, SB's can't bring their saps.
- Shadowblades are weak against slash, Infils can spec slash weapons.
- Shadowblades who use 2h, get no significant bonus to crit styles, and in battle it something along doubles Infil evade rates.
- Low Shadowblade weaponskill seem to raise Infil evade count, the spec-AF buff makes the gap even larger, situation table:
SB's Low Weaponskill vs Infil Higher AF = bad
Infil's High Weaponskill vs SB's Lower AF = good

My own experience out in RvR is that their higher WS vs our lower AF just amplifies their dual styles further, because wether infils whine about it almost never hitting, they can go drown themselves, because each infil i meet swing their second weapon 95% to 100% each battle. I always check my logs when I get beaten by infils, because I normally get a good laugh at their tremedous damage outputs.

Infiltrators don't need to be nerfed, absolutely not (since Dragonfang was adjusted), but SBs could need to grow back half-way to what they used to be. I will admit that pre-LA nerf I didn't fear a single Infil, LA damage was quite sweet back then.

oh and, 2.5 spec points > 5% HP bonus, any day.
Give SB 3% more Spec Points for 1/3/6 RSP and we're talking.
 

emma

Loyal Freddie
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Actually you`ll find that Norse SB`s with similar setups to Briton Infils (Slash) will have higher Weaponskill. These are based on 50 spec in Sword/Slash/Thrust.

Norse SB with +10 str at creation, 25 str cap, Aug Str 5 and Max Buffs along with rr11 (+10 to Melee Skills) Can get 1768 WS.

Briton Infil (Slash) with +10 at creation, 25 str cap, Aug Str 5 and Max Buffs along with rr11 can get 1736 WS.

Saracen Infil (Thrust) With +10 str/dex at creation, 25 str cap, +25 dex cap, Aug Str/Dex 5 and Max Buffs along with rr11 can get 1794 WS.

Now the Thrust Infil is very unlikely to be able to get +25 str/dex cap on his template without seriously gimping something first so most likely his WS will be around the low 17xx mark due to only having +5-10 str/dex cap at most on his template.

So as you can see a properly equiped Shadowblade can get higher weaponskill than there counterparts the problems come into play when you add in Str/Con debuffs which can seriously hard our weaponskill, unlike Thrust/Pierce spec lines which will take a 50% penalty instead of the full blown 100% like Sword/Axe/Slash/Blades spec lines.
 

Damon_D

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Yeah Emma based on 50 weapon spec.... something Infil's can easy afford but SB's cant......... Now try with 44 weapon spec on the SB.. as high as most any SB will go...
 

emma

Loyal Freddie
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Damon_D said:
Yeah Emma based on 50 weapon spec.... something Infil's can easy afford but SB's cant......... Now try with 44 weapon spec on the SB.. as high as most any SB will go...
Actually alot of SB`s are going PerfZerker now which involves speccing Weapon to 50 ;p

Very few of them (apart from the gimps like me) spec CS higher than 21 now ;p

But personally i prefer my 600+ PA`s over 10-20 more dmg with normal styles ;p

Infact ask any of the high rank SB`s if they have 50 Sword/Axe and i bet most of them say yes.
 

Runimatrix

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Just read that n it was a v good read, i read it all n have actually just started a SB myself which will be goin on 50 soon ( i hope) and was good info imo. Thanks
 

Damon_D

Fledgling Freddie
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emma said:
Actually alot of SB`s are going PerfZerker now which involves speccing Weapon to 50 ;p

Very few of them (apart from the gimps like me) spec CS higher than 21 now ;p

But personally i prefer my 600+ PA`s over 10-20 more dmg with normal styles ;p

Infact ask any of the high rank SB`s if they have 50 Sword/Axe and i bet most of them say yes.

Ahh well can be , tbh I have not bothered to kit mine out with TOA gear and or change spec since we got TOA , and I wont until we get a little loving...

Still 44 axe 39 la 34 CS here :)
 

Eroa

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If you get the best things, you can be the best if you are the best.
 

Cmos

Fledgling Freddie
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emma said:
But personally i prefer my 600+ PA`s over 10-20 more dmg with normal styles ;p

50 sword/critt pre-toa fully SC´ed 20% relic bonus MP 2h sword, landed a perfect PA in DF a few days ago, scrolled up and /cry ... 474dmg
did someone say delete Y E S .. ?.. well...

Anyways.. good reading .. might do a respec instead of delete.. we´ll see about that.
 

Iceflower

Fledgling Freddie
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>50 sword/critt pre-toa fully SC´ed 20% relic bonus MP 2h sword, landed a perfect PA in DF a few days ago, scrolled up and /cry ... 474dmg

Ye the PA nerf 3 years ago hasnt scaled well with SCing and other abilities that has been included in the game since.
 
N

Nymrin

Guest
I forgot to mention the envenom imbalance. Also, I must admit I lack the information of Norse WS, but I had no idea they could reach that kind of WS, especially if you wish to utilize left-axe (which will most probably not be specced 50 if your main hand is).

All I know is my kobbie's WS when FULLY SC:d and it's a lousy 1300:ish. but yes, that's because I'm a kobbie, but as I wrote, roll a Norse. The BB Spec AF imbalance still most probably nullifies those 30 more WS when FULLY kitted.
 

Thugs

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Game needs a complete redo at levels 50

Never expected such an imbalance as i have seen at level 50. Avoided levelling to 50 for ages as i was quite happy at BG1. I sure was right.

Inf bs2'd me for 800 (eh backstab that mind) - poison debuff (another 400+) gone. Hits me at 1.5 speed and his mate joins in for a few hits at 400 combined total damage off both weaps. I am dead before i come out of the bs2 stun. That makes close to 2100 hits gone in a blink of an eye. Fully sc shit on though resists down a bit but not much.

Am all for fast killing but this is beyond a joke and the game is just unplayable at 50 for anyone like me who always solos. Do the game designers play this game themselves?

Another fight - i bs this running hib who i hardly scratch who then proceeds to mezz me and destroy me with hits of about 500 a time.

'The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence?' Well not really cos if you kill so fast that also gets tedious.

Sorry but i fail to see the enjoyment of this. Wouldn't it make sense for everyone to partition for a damage reduction across the board. The game would be far more playable if there was a damage reduction in the region of at least 50%. As it is now i really think the game is dreadful at 50.

Thugs.
(disillusioned DAOC player in limbo again as he searches for another game or wonders if the pvp server is the only way to go from here on in)
 

arawem

Loyal Freddie
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PvP server is even worse, u find in ANY starting city arround 4-5 50s that kill u in a shot for maybe 0 or 1 rp, what a fun server.
 

Thugs

Fledgling Freddie
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Camlann

Well Camlann is making more sense to me as everyone gets to use the same stuff as well i suppose? So the armour imbalance is taken away for one thing. But wot about the Housing Zone etc - and Shrouded - are all those zones included? I better read up on this stuff me thinks.

Thugs
PS: as for getting my arse kicked (if you meant mine that is) am all for a fair or not too unfair fight as long as it is not totally one sided as it is fighting infs.
 

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