Settle me an argument...

Wij

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I contend that switching up though the gears in a car need not be done one at a time and that sometimes where the situation makes it desirable a car will happily flick from second to fourth or third to fifth without any damage.

Certain other parties who shall remain nameless contend that this damages the clutch or gearbox or something else they can't think of. Assuming that at no point I have overreved the engine due to inappropriate gear selection, can this be true ? Or is it an old wives tale, an urban legend, or just cock ?

Pray tell greasers, tell.
 

DaGaffer

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Wij said:
I contend that switching up though the gears in a car need not be done one at a time and that sometimes where the situation makes it desirable a car will happily flick from second to fourth or third to fifth without any damage.

Certain other parties who shall remain nameless contend that this damages the clutch or gearbox or something else they can't think of. Assuming that at no point I have overreved the engine due to inappropriate gear selection, can this be true ? Or is it an old wives tale, an urban legend, or just cock ?

Pray tell greasers, tell.

Depends entirely on the car in question and its torque curve, but as a rule, when you're changing up, you should really go through the gears, it saves fuel, wear and tear on the gearbox (i know that sounds counterintuitive as you're changing more gears, but its true) and, for most cars, its easier to keep in the powerband that way.
 

Frizz

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Shifting forward two gears should only be as damaging as shifting down two gears.

(None)

But yeah, it does depend on the car...
 

old.user4556

Has a sexy sister. I am also a Bodhi wannabee.
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It's fine to do it and it's called a "block gear change".
 

Wij

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How does it depend on the car ? What varies ? :)
 

Mofo8

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It's actually taught by driving instructors these days. I took lessons over 10 years ago and gave up after a couple of attempts. I passed recently after taking lessons up with the same instructor, and the block gear shifts were one of the major differences (apart from the 3 million percent increase in the number of cars on the road). He only really stressed block shifting down (4th to 2nd when cornering).

But... to help you settle you argument, I'll spend a minute typing a quote in from page 80 of 'Driving: The Essential Skills' published by the DSA:

Selective/block gear changing

Missing out gears


The flexibility of modern engines and the efficiency of braking systems and gearboxes often makes it unecessary to change into every gear when changing up and down the gearbox.

Missing out gears at the appropriate time will give you more time to concentrate on the road ahead and allow you to keep both hands on the steering wheel for longer.

Changing down

As a general rule, it is preferable and safer to brake to the desired speed and then change down into the appropriate gear. It might be necessary to maintain a light pressure on the footbrake whilst changing down.

Changing up

There are many occasions when missing out gears whilst changing up is desirable, however don't accelerate to fiercely or for too long in the lower gears. This
* uses much more fuel
* could damage your engine
* could cause wheel-spin and loss of control

How many gears to miss out

It depends on the individual vehicle and the road and traffic conditions. The most common examples when changing down are
* fifth to third
* fourth to second
* third to first

The most common examples when changing up are
*first to third
* second to fourth
* third to fifth
 

Wazzerphuk

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Yes, it's fine. I do it regularly. Hell, I've even done second to fifth with no problems on a few occasions.
 

Mofo8

Fledgling Freddie
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Oh.... and is it just me or has Freddy's been ball-achingly slow these past few days and weeks?
 

Rubber Bullets

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Wij said:
How does it depend on the car ? What varies ? :)

I have a Golf VR6 and I virtually never use all the gears up or down. The engine has a wide power band and plenty of torque throughout. It'll dawdle along at 25mph at 900rpm in top, and still pull away smoothly (if slowly).

I recently tried a turbo diesel MPV and tried driving in a similar way. Big mistake :) The turbo diesels have loads of torque too, but in a far narrower band. I found I had to use every gear, going up at least, to keep acceleration smooth.

RB
 

Brynn

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I sometimes go from 2nd to 4th in a 30 to make sure i stick at 30, my pug has a fair ooomph in 3rd so i avoid it so i dont speed :D
 

Tom

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I've just bought a RWD car with 240bhp, that weighs about a tonne.

I don't think I'll be missing gears when shifting down!

As long as you match the revs Wij, you'll be fine. Perhaps your friends are thinking that cars have Sturmey-Archer gearboxes.

Actually, to threadjack, I believe that modern cars use less fuel when engine braking to a stop, than they do when coasting. Is this true?
 

Bodhi

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You can change from any gear into any gear you want with a manual gearbox, hell go from 1st to 5th if you want to, just don't expect to accelerate much more. If anything block changing saves wear on the transmission, as you are making less shifts. I block shift all the time, as my Golf has an old skool 16valve engine, which means it doesn't really start motoring til you've got at least 4500rpm on the clock, so often have to go from 5th to 3rd to zing past slower traffic.

And Tom, when you are using engine braking, the engine is continuing under its own power, it doesn't need to burn any fuel to keep itself ticking over or to increase performance. But if you put the clutch in an coast, the engine idles, in which case it need to keep injecting a small amount of fuel to keep the engine turning over. So believe it or not, engine breaking uses no fuel whatsoever, as the motion of the wheels keep the engine going.
 

Chilly

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depending on your battery system engine breaking also increases efficiency because it charges the battery from your spent forward motion :D isnt economy great!
 

venus

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i was also taught by my driving instructor to go straight from 5th to 2nd if nessesary
 

Gumbo

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Tom, the brakes are for braking, the engine is for going. When braking hard (emergency stop style braking) in a rear wheel drive sportscar, you should never dip the clutch until the last car length or so. doing so will encourage the rear wheels to lock prematurely as the weight transfers to the nose and there is no drive at all going through the transmission. Buy this DVD :- http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=9900

Better still go on a training day with the man himself. You'll learn a lot about threshold braking, rotational steering, you might cover some heel and toe and if you progress fast enough some mid corner left foot braking.

To answer the changing gear thing, no problem at all with missing gears, on upshift or down. IAM will tell you it's good as it's one less thing you are doing which involves removing the hands from the wheel.
 

~Yuckfou~

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Back to the original point, you can even change up and down without the clutch if you like. You need to catch the revs right though. Handy if you ever nuke a clutch cable miles away from a garage. I don't recommend you do this on a regular basis :/
 

TedTheDog

Fred's & Barry's co-founder
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I often change from 2nd to 4th as I live too close to Croydon and therefore must have an element of the Chav virus that makes me want to over-rev my engine, but not enough for me to want to exceed the speed limit too much.

Incidentally, has anyone noticed this actually interesting thread was started by our resident sexually dysfunctional tourettes case and he hasnt referred to any part of the female anatomy at all?
 

throdgrain

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I often change from 3rd straight to 5th, its very easy with a 2.5 litre car.
I do know however that baby jesus will make me pay for doing this, and that a millennia in purgatory may well change my opinion :(
 

Tom

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Gumbo said:
Tom, the brakes are for braking, the engine is for going. When braking hard (emergency stop style braking) in a rear wheel drive sportscar, you should never dip the clutch until the last car length or so. doing so will encourage the rear wheels to lock prematurely as the weight transfers to the nose and there is no drive at all going through the transmission. Buy this DVD :- http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=9900

Better still go on a training day with the man himself. You'll learn a lot about threshold braking, rotational steering, you might cover some heel and toe and if you progress fast enough some mid corner left foot braking.

Aye, first thing I'm doing when I get the car is a Ride Drive course. I'll likely follow that with an IAM course. I have driven a RWD car before, but it was a sloppy 2.0 Carlton Estate!
 

old.user4556

Has a sexy sister. I am also a Bodhi wannabee.
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I use 1st to 4th to get to 30mph quickly and then into a comfy gear.

Similarly (depending on speed), 5th to 2nd for acceleration or 5th ro 3rd if it's motorway overtaking.
 

Bodhi

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Gumbo said:
Tom, the brakes are for braking, the engine is for going.

I disagree with this, as if you're going down a steep decline, selecting a lower gear is by far the most efficient and controlled way of regulating your speed. There's a massive hill just down the road from me, I typically stick it in 3rd and it keeps itself at 60mph all the way down, without me wearing the brakes down or unsettling the car (the hill is on a bend).

And yes, I do think I know better than the IAM. Two hands on the wheel indeed. Everyone knows the best way to drive is one hand on top of the steering wheel, the other on the gearstick. Or holding a cigarette, mobile phone, can of juice, fiddling with the stereo, rolling a spliff, etc etc :)
 

throdgrain

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You obviously use the engine for braking too. Thats why its called engine braking.
 

old.user4556

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Light weight vernier pulleys can reduce the effect of engine breaking, but now i'm getting off topic.

Really need a motoring forum soon :(.
 

Dr_Weasel

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If often block shift up. How many gears I do is dependant on how hard I accelerated away. 2nd gear will do 80mph so I block shift from 2nd, 3rd, and 4th into 6th at times.
 

Tilda

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Wij said:
I contend that switching up though the gears in a car need not be done one at a time and that sometimes where the situation makes it desirable a car will happily flick from second to fourth or third to fifth without any damage.

Certain other parties who shall remain nameless contend that this damages the clutch or gearbox or something else they can't think of. Assuming that at no point I have overreved the engine due to inappropriate gear selection, can this be true ? Or is it an old wives tale, an urban legend, or just cock ?

Pray tell greasers, tell.
You are correct, my driving instructor said so !
 

Gumbo

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Yup Bods is right, but long downhill drags are really the only time you should use the engine expressly to slow the car.

Obviously there is a certain amount of engine braking as you downshift, but the good driver would have matched the revs to the gear as part of the shift so the revs follow the speed down as you brake, rather than the engine doing the slowing itself.

If you can understand the above statement you're doing well, as I wrote it and I almost can't...

There's a reason for heel and toeing beyond just keeping the car balanced when giving it beans, it's important for mechanical sympathy too, and most importantly it can give you badge of honour marks on your speedcats :p

speedcat.jpg
 

dave

Fledgling Freddie
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Can someone explain what is meant by "matching the revs" ? Cheers!
 

Vae

Resident Freddy
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Matching the revs refers to changing gears as the revs change so that you don't end up in the situation where the engine's screaming at high revs and you're still in 2nd gear because you haven't changed up following the pattern of the revs. If you're changing up into each gear as you accelerate then the revs should never get that high and the acceleration should be pretty smooth.

As mentioned in this thread more modern cars have wider bands of revs for each gear so that the bands of revs appropriate to each gear overlap and thus in some circumstances you can block change up by 2 gears and still stay in the comfortable power band of revs and maintain smooth acceleration.
 

xane

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I was taught to go from 5th down to 3rd for roundabouts, still can't break that habit. My last car (Corsa 1.2) had a wonderful 3rd gear that allowed you to pull away in and stay there for the entire journey (urban at 30mph). My current car (Cruiser 2.2 diesel) is rather nasty in 3rd, so I tend to shift in and out of it asap or skip it altogether. I'm in agreement with Bodhi in using gears rather than brakes to control speed, it is a lot easier with the heavier car and a bigger engine.

Advice on this "matching revs" business would be appreciated here too.
 

Gumbo

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Actually by 'matching revs' in this sense I was referring to downshifts. By giving a little blip on the throttle with your heel, or the outside of your foot (see pic of my shoe for mark made by the accelerator), as you pass the gearstick through the neutral position you get a much smoother release of the clutch. This keeps the car balanced, and in extremely wet conditions in a rear wheel drive, light car, you can prevent the wheels from losing traction as the engine braking would try to slow them down too fast.

So matching revs is the result of using heel and toe braking.

Do not try this unless you have a nice empty road with nothing to run into at first. It's a track technique and if you screw it up you can find yourself falling off the brake pedal or actually making the car try to accelerate while you're braking. When you do get it right it does make the drive smoother, and with the right car makes a great sound as you pass that bus stop into the roundabout :)
 

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