Sent this to Mythic:

Ilum

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Just one of my weird ideas...would like to know some opinions on the matter :) And if you agree with me, it's a good idea to send it / something similar to Mythic as well :)

***

In regards to New Frontiers, Realm vs Realm combat has changed a lot. What myself and a lot others miss, is the good old roaming around...where you look for fights just for the purpose of enjoying a good and challenging encounter with another realm of roughly same numbers hopefully.

In New Frontiers space is tight between the towers, docks and drop areas. This part of the game, which was so loved by many, is gone.

But it would not be hard to bring back. And of course, you might ask "why should be". But I ask you "why not".

Look at this suggestion - you make a nice set of land in the North Sea - would be about the size of an Old Frontier zone - some Sea around, instead of the zonewalls of OF. No keeps on this island, and no boats going straight the way here. Just have a landmass that people can jump near on the road between the frontiers. Anyone seeking just to fight can have it here.

In my opinion there is nothing to lose by adding this - if this is not what people want they will simply not use it. If this is what people want they will use it and enjoy the game longer. And perhaps earn you a few more months or even longer of subscription payment.

Story wise there could easily be a reason why a central landmass would be untouched by keeps and so. A curse, prophecy...I'm sure you do not lack the creativity to create a story around it.

Anyway, I challenge you to ask yourself what you have to lose by adding such a feature :)

In my book, nothing - but you can make a lot of players happy.

***
 

Aragyn

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I think part of the problem would be that it would be very elitist, like the old emain, random grps would just be wtfpwnd, so they would stay clear, but would be unable of finding RvR anywhere else, and many of those who have never RvR'd before would go back to PvE or quit...

Just my opinion...

Though on paper its a great idea ;)
 
A

Aoln

Guest
Seen this idea before, i like it :)

Random groups wouldnt have to go there if they didn't want to, it would even be a way to filter the elitist groups from the randoms so they don't get slaughtered in the normal zones.
 

TiwiS

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it would just be the 3 top gank groups of all realms roaming there and the rest being to affraid to touch it.
 

Ilum

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But if they run around there they are not hurting anyone atleast? :)
 

Gamah

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Good idea but with instanced RvR comming I doubt they will give it much thought.
 

Cozak

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Would be the top 3 RvR guilds then the zergs then the QQ, just like the good ol' days.
 

Justicator

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Isn't this why mythic is implementing Instanced RvR? so all these fotm gankgroups can fight vs each other. Will most likely take quite a while before euro servers get it.
 

Kained_again

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Heard something in the pipeline about instanced battlegrounds, simular thing no?
 

Shanaia

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hmm I like the idea...

But I disagree that roaming and 8 vs 8 is dead ... Hadrians wall and surrounding zones seem to have become the new E-main on Prydwen and as long as you stay out of guardrange of towers and keeps (which really isn't that hard) you can have great 8 vs 8's.

I noticed avoiding the zergs is easier then in the old e-main. All you have to do is stay 5000 units away from big flames.
 

Bloodaxe_Springskalle

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it's a clear issue that the keeps and towers are too tight atm, combined with zonewalls and unclimbable cliffs you are more or less guided towards a tower or keep wichever way you run.

some sort of "borderland" between the three realms that u could jump off at somewhere between your boat disappears from the /rw map and before it pops up in another realm so there would be no map here.
a varied terrain much like leirvik without the keeps and a more slopes would be preferable.

it could even be introduced as "Iceland" with a varied rocky terrain and hide the ruins of "Dimmu Borgir" with a dungeon (Dimmu Borgir is what ppl belived was one of the seven gates to hell etc. or something in that direction)
an island without keeps that holds a dungeon with quality drops of some sort would attract RP hunters and drop hunters and would come as a welcome change from the eternal keep/tower zerging.
 

cHodAX

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Bloodaxe_Springskalle said:
it could even be introduced as "Iceland" with a varied rocky terrain and hide the ruins of "Dimmu Borgir" with a dungeon (Dimmu Borgir is what ppl belived was one of the seven gates to hell etc. or something in that direction)
an island without keeps that holds a dungeon with quality drops of some sort would attract RP hunters and drop hunters and would come as a welcome change from the eternal keep/tower zerging.

Isle of Mann or one of the Scottish islands such as Shetlend would make more sense as Iceland isn't exactly in between the Britsh Isles and Scandinavia, it would be a big old detour to end up that far north ;) I like the general idea though, give the customers what they want is sound business logic in my opinion.
 

Bloodaxe_Springskalle

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cHodAX said:
Isle of Mann or one of the Scottish islands such as Shetlend would make more sense as Iceland isn't exactly in between the Britsh Isles and Scandinavia, it would be a big old detour to end up that far north ;) I like the general idea though, give the customers what they want is sound business logic in my opinion.

atlantis doubtly ever even existed, so iceland makes just perfect sense to me :)
 

Zedenz

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Why not just /suggest or post in the suggestions forum?.........Oh wait this isn't WoW.

Thing is, your idea is just revert to what the old frontiers was, and I can't see Mythic going backwards. RvR instances will probably appease the gank group gods, but they are a long way off yet.
 

Gazon

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I'm sorry to say that this is a horrible idea and I hope it's never going to happen. :twak:

Mythic's goal is to create a game that, for a big part, offers the opportunity for *every* player to participate in a massive Realm War. And the game needs to stimulate all players to make this happen.

Mythic intended DaoC to be a Mass Multiplayer game. This means, amongst other things, there shouldn't be limits to the number of people able to participate in an activity e.g. a fight. It wasn't made for solo-fighting or group vs group fighting, strictly speaking. You can try to solo, you can try to find group vs group fights but you cannot demand (read: whine at) your opponent nor the designers of the game to accommodate you.

RvR -the Realm War- was intended to be a big part of the game, for every player. Mythic got rid of the player-constructed arena that was old Emain where a few opted groups were constantly farming each other for arpees over and over again. The rest of the frontier was empty because there was no map that showed you the way to a fight. Taking an enemy keep was mostly fighting NPC guards and then losing it again a few hours after you left it. So when the casual player -and the largest part of all players are and they pay the same subs even though they aren't online as much- wanted to enjoy RvR, the quickest way was to go to Emain to join the action. Hence the magnetism of Emain and the emptyness off the rest of the frontier. The casual player could get some spectacular action and some quick arpee too in Emain but mostly he/she got steamrolled there. Many got frustrated, even disgusted and many just gave up on RvR entirely. In short: only the highly organised elite -and this is a minority- got to really enjoy RvR. And the Realm War was limited to the odd surprise Relic Raid.

Mythic also intended Daoc to be a Roleplaying game. Mythic scrapped the Emain arpee-shortcut because it was a degenerate form of what they intended the game to be. Arpees are an insentive, not the sole goal. The goal for players should be -roleplay alert- to fight the other realm, to conquer it, to get all the powerfull artifacts and defend the homeland.
Yeah, I know. The real goal is to have fun and arpees mean pwnage and pwnage means fun too. But as I said, the majority of players -Mythic customers- are casual players and they aren't able to invest the hours and effort to hone an uber character (regularly sceduled RvR with a fixed grp, twinked template, high RR, keep up with FOTM, ...) and own all that cross their path. Many are less ambitious and just want to participate in the war and try and win a victory as a part of a realm-army. Killing every enemy single-handedly would be nice but is not really necessary for now.

Mythic introduced NF to try and restate the goal and lure the casual player into the frontier and also create an invironment where elite groups can fight. And I think they succeeded:
Nowadays in NF you can join the 24/7 RvR bg wich means instant involvement for everybody who is interested. There actually is an active front where the battle rages and the front is always moving but you can see where it is on the map. You can join the zerg and follow a leader and/or you can patrol the edge of the battle with your opted group, do hit and runs or engage enemy patrols or you can intercept incoming reïnforcements between the front and the portal keeps/drop points.

To anwer your question: What you would lose is what you lost in OF: accessible and enjoyable RvR for everybody. Too big a part of RvR would be concentrated on the "arpee-island" and dominated by the elite. The rest of the frontier would be empty.

Closed zone, instanced, 8 vs 8, 24/7, non-stop killing to up your score... I found the game you're looking for :p
 

Esselinithia

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I think what you said is almost perfect, bet lets see it a bit different way. There are 2 kinds of players: ones who play to have fn in the game, and ones who play to win and ruin the game for everyone. The former is more important fr MMORPGs that depends on community and a big player base including causal players. The later looks pretty harmfull so Mythic should make sure they don't ruin the game for anyone. There is a good way to handle it: Make the later group of players active on PVP servers, and the former happy on normal servers.

Imho you have a good chance to find 8vs8 on a PVP server, no? And abslolutely no need of the PVE "grind". But if you like the quests, etc, and the world with a realm war you should have the chance to do it without dealing with elements that should belong to a PVP server. Cheaters, people who want to score easy victories by ruining the game to causal players and other easymoding people shouldn't get a box of instant victories. If they are afreaid of a PVP server they are afraid of games where 8vs8 or 6vs6 is the norm.

Instanced RVR, even in with closed zone helps this problem, by separating these groups from the rest, but guess what, when it gets introduced they will whine, because they won't get easy victories by killing less opted players but have even fight with each other and will think, with all of this they might as well go to a PVP server. And if enough people joint to the PVP server, they will start a new one, etc. If they hate the "PVE grind" want to fight 8vs8 without huge zergs, etc, and all the time: They have their chance.

If they want to kill less elitistic players and run the game for a much bigger number of players: It is Mythics job to STOP them.
 

Gazon

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Esselinithia said:
I think what you said is almost perfect, bet lets see it a bit different way. There are 2 kinds of players: ones who play to have fn in the game, and ones who play to win and ruin the game for everyone.

Ahem, I wouldn't put it that bluntly.
It's just that players who enjoy and are good at rvr should be stimulated by the game to participate in the realm war so the community can benifit from an active frontier instead of inviting them to all go off to play on their own in a secluded area without consequences for the realm and effectively degrading the rvr experience for everybody else.
We don't want them to go to PvP servers. We want them here, fighting for the realm. :worthy:
 

Azathrim

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TiwiS said:
it would just be the 3 top gank groups of all realms roaming there and the rest being to affraid to touch it.

For the first few days yes. Then it would be dead empty. Why? Well, in the end the 3 top gank groups would be bored of not having the option for a few run overs.


Besides, group vs. group is still possible in NF. Noone forces you to hug a keep and if you do it is your own fault.

Only difference is, that there is a greater range of possibilities for more people. In OF it was either run in an opted group or don't bother.
 

Esselinithia

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NF was the biggest nerf in the game, if people complain because this and that ruins the game for a lot of player, mythic adds a nerf. When they found no matter what they do with individual classes there will be fotm opted groups and even a small dfference can be unbalancing, and the constant nerfbat hits the causal players more since they don't PL new alts in a day, they decided to go for a bigger change, and it is NF. They won't reverse it.
 

Gazon

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I guess my hopes were in vain:
http://www.camelotherald.com/more/1860.shtml

Mythic is planning on implementing instanced RvR. Matching one group vs another in a private dungeon. It's not sure yet but they are thinking about it because alot of players requested it.

If this doesn't affect or even boosts Frontier activity then it's fine.

But if it turns out to be more attractive/interesting than the Frontier war (by giving arpee rewards) then a large part of the population will be spending their time in these private RvR dungeons and the Frontier war will die once again. And that would be a very bad thing I think.

They are however implementing server clustering first: combining RvR populations of different servers in one frontier.
 

Vilje

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Server clustering is not sure to happen in Europe, however it might. Server Clustering is currently an option for some US servers, where I heard the population is so low, that some realms cant even gather people to take a keep.

Instanced RvR will be introduced to Europe i take it, and it is already on it's way to the US servers. Somewhere after Catacombs arrives to Europe sometime in March.


http://www.camelotherald.com/more/1875.shtml

( I had a better link which explained more, but I cant find it anymore )
 

Ilum

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Gazon said:
To anwer your question: What you would lose is what you lost in OF: accessible and enjoyable RvR for everybody. Too big a part of RvR would be concentrated on the "arpee-island" and dominated by the elite. The rest of the frontier would be empty.

If that part was lost, which I doubt will happen, it will be through the players own choice. But if it's true what you say, that the majority of players prefer old style new frontiers, then the people going to such an island in the north sea, be a small number and have little effect on RvR.
 

Sycho

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It will be a one zone rvr game like before NF is this happened though....server just needs more people rvring really.
 

Elendar

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Gazon said:
I guess my hopes were in vain:
http://www.camelotherald.com/more/1860.shtml

Mythic is planning on implementing instanced RvR. Matching one group vs another in a private dungeon. It's not sure yet but they are thinking about it because alot of players requested it.

If this doesn't affect or even boosts Frontier activity then it's fine.

But if it turns out to be more attractive/interesting than the Frontier war (by giving arpee rewards) then a large part of the population will be spending their time in these private RvR dungeons and the Frontier war will die once again. And that would be a very bad thing I think.

They are however implementing server clustering first: combining RvR populations of different servers in one frontier.


if a large portion of players spend their time there this means that they enjoy that more
how is implementing something many more people enjoy a bad thing?
strange that if nf is so great and wonderful the number of people out in fronteirs have plumeted and server population levels have dropped
still it its how mythic have envisioned their game should be played, whos to care what the majority of the players want eh?
 

Gazon

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Elendar said:
still it its how mythic have envisioned their game should be played, whos to care what the majority of the players want eh?

Yes, sarcasm. I have tried to ridicule "grp vs grp without serving realm goals" by saying it's counterstrike-like, because ridicule is the FH way. I realise this isn't helping to get my point across. :(
Telling people how they should play because it's the "vision" of Mythic will not work, I realise that too. It's this "vision" though that's advertised and this partly is what draws new people to the game.

My point: The game itself should make people want to play like Mythic intended by making it more fun and more rewarding then to play any other way. It isn't doing that atm, some things have to change, and an island like this would be a step in the wrong direction imo.

I know the large majority (everybody?) of us want action and arpee. But I doubt the majority of daoc players wants to restrict it to grp vs grp in one area. And that is what will happen:

People will go where the action is. Currently there aren't enough people to have action everywhere. The island will provide a meeting point and instant action/arpee so it will be very interesting to most people, yes. It will even draw the people who prefer the frontier battles because the frontier war isn't constant enough and there are times nothing is happening there. Instead of trying to start up a battle in the Frontier, by trying to take a tower or keep, it will be very tempting for them to join the ongoing battle on the island. The Frontier will become less and less active.

In the end, you'll -have to- go to the island to see an enemy and there won't be any Frontier battle anymore.

See: old Emain. See: what is happening at Brynja Bridge atm.

Population on the server will drop even more if there is no active Frontier and "just" the island to play on because a large part of the population just won't find this sort of game interesting enough.

I'll try some more sarcasm anyway:
I bet if they implement DoaC Solitaire for arpee rewards, alot of people would play it. A majority would at least try it. Let's implement it! :m00:
 

Xeanor

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Mythic does sensible things to the game....

It's just that the changes are usually a bit "large", which leads to some players not liking the game at all anymore, while the majority loves the changes.

And it's better to not listen to players most of the time, because there's 1000 players with all different ideas, and they're all shit.
 

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