Sad day for Europe

Hawkwind

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Nice edits.:)

Scouse said:
That's why we have the ECHR - it's higher than our shitty courts with a higher standard of principle - on OUR side.

Who also accepted the Jordanian promise 3 months ago:p!!!!!
 

Scouse

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Who also accepted the Jordanian promise 3 months ago:p!!!!!

I can't find that. All I can find is the ECHR blocking the deportation order of the UK high court on the 17th January - 3 months ago.
The ECHR said that the radical cleric Abu Qatada cannot be sent back to Jordan while there remains "a real risk that evidence obtained by torture will be used against him", judges said today.
In the Strasbourg-based court's first ever ruling that an expulsion would be in violation of Article 6, the right to a fair trial, the court ruled that this article would be breached if Qatada was returned to Jordan, "given the real risk of the admission of evidence obtained by torture at his retrial".

...

That ruling, of course, is entirely correct. The ECHR blocking the deportation of Qatada means that nation states that use torture have a harder time using that "evidence".

Even if Abu's guilty the ruling protects people from torture by governments - which is a good thing...
 

DaGaffer

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So you are happy to have people ultimately in charge that nobody voted for and do not have to reveal any sort of agenda?

When was the last time you voted for a judge in the UK?

Disagree Job. And a backlog is easily fixed - provide more funding.

Problem with the "provide more funding" argument is that its a bit like adding lanes to the M25, the more you have, the more it gets used. It would be interesting to sort through all the outstanding ECtHR case load and make a judgement call on how many of them are "trivial"; that's one of the issues with the structure of the court, anyone can bring a case, which is both a fundamental strength, but also a resources-hogging weakness. The only thing that stops more people taking cases there is the backlog. Maybe it needs to be restructured with a kind of "triage" to fasttrack the essential cases from the "help I'm being oppressed because the government won't let me smoke on the train" cases.
 

Scouse

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Problem with the "provide more funding" argument is that its a bit like adding lanes to the M25, the more you have, the more it gets used

I've never accepted the M25 argument - even at University. We followed the logic and apparently in 2010 there were 128 million cars on the UK roads. 128 million! Two for every man, woman and child, actually driving around!

In reality there's a limit to how many cars you can have - in exactly the same way there is a limit to how many people would want to refer their cases to the ECHR.

And remember - the ECHR hears cases from all of Europe - I don't think the backlog is that bad. It just needs more people thrown at it so more cases can be heard.

Maybe it needs to be restructured with a kind of "triage" to fasttrack the essential cases from the "help I'm being oppressed because the government won't let me smoke on the train" cases.

Way too open to abuse. To requote the first post again:
it is... in the nature of the protection of fundamental rights and the rule of law that sometimes minority interests have to be secured against the view of the majority.

If some people think the government not letting them smoke on the train is "oppression" - then the ECHR needs to hear it.

Ridiculous? Yes. Open to abuse? Absolutely. But perhaps some people feel genuine oppression because of it - and who am I to decide that?

I'll say again - "trivial" in who's eyes?
 

DaGaffer

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I've never accepted the M25 argument - even at University. We followed the logic and apparently in 2010 there were 128 million cars on the UK roads. 128 million! Two for every man, woman and child, actually driving around!

In reality there's a limit to how many cars you can have - in exactly the same way there is a limit to how many people would want to refer their cases to the ECHR.

Well you didn't do the maths very well did you? You don't need more cars, just enough cars to fill that particular stretch of road. And whether you like it or not, real world experience suggests its true.

If some people think the government not letting them smoke on the train is "oppression" - then the ECHR needs to hear it.

Didn't necessarily say the ECtHR doesn't need to hear it, just that does it need to hear it ahead of other more important cases? Whether you like it or not, someone, at some stage, has to make a value judgement on each case. It doesn't mean they don't show the necessary due diligence, but I don't have the problem with a tiered approach; cases are still put before the court, but with filters (its the reason we have filters in domestic courts like the DA/CPS, magistrates courts etc. You can't assign equal weight to everything if you want to get anything done).

Ridiculous? Yes. Open to abuse? Absolutely. But perhaps some people feel genuine oppression because of it - and who am I to decide that?

I'll say again - "trivial" in who's eyes?

Its going to be regarded as "trivial" in someone's eyes (the Judges) eventually. Maybe there should a vote - an online jury system ;)
 

Scouse

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I think the crux of your argument is this:
Didn't necessarily say the ECtHR doesn't need to hear it, just that does it need to hear it ahead of other more important cases?

It's the court that decides the importance of the cases. If you give that job to someone else you take away from the power of the court.

IMO the only solution is to increase the carrying capacity of the court. In the short term massively - so the backlog can be cleared - in the long term sustainably - so it has the necessary capacity to make the decisions it's there to make.

Changing what gets to the court, or the order it gets there, is an act that neuters it...
 

Job

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I was under the impression, because of the backlog, you can log your case and sit back waiting for a decision and no one can do fuk all till then
 

Scouse

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I was under the impression, because of the backlog, you can log your case and sit back waiting for a decision and no one can do fuk all till then

That's an argument for increased funding if I ever saw one.

It's NOT an argument for scrapping our only defence against a facist totalitarian regime...
 

Tom

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I suspect the real reason he doesn't want to return is because they'll lock him up in some dank shithole for the rest of his life.

Perhaps if he'd preached peace and love rather than violence he'd not now be in the position he finds himself in. Although I disapprove strongly of his treatment in the UK, to be honest, I'll be glad to see the back of him.
 

TdC

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Something more interesting?

I'm guess in Jordan they'll do a lot more to him than the legally sanctioned torture that "we" carry out...
wow. surely that man who destroyed those video tapes, which were ofc evidence, is now in jail? I thought it was a federal crime to destroy evidence?
 

Scouse

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It used to be a crime to torture people in the "free west" as well....

...and you used to have a right to a trial, instead of a military tribunal...

....but you're obviously a loony if you think that a country that holds people without charge, tortures them and then puts them on special trial is, essentially, a bona-fide facist regime :(
 

hammeron

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roll on the utopian society where no one disagree's with anyone, where wars are non-existant and there is a glut of resource for all......oh sorry i was in cloud cookoo land, humans are by nature not very nice and i believe it should be any country's right to deport anyone whom is illegally in their country, human rights are broken, they will always be broken because my idea of what is a human right is different to your's and everyone else's, torture pah as if it was ever stopped, if anyone actually believes there is a single country on this planet that has not used torture recently are kidding themselves. the EHCR runs to its own timetable not to what is required and as such is unfit for purpose, imagine all country's of the world running to the same timetable for detainees as the EHCR lmao now that would be truly an unjust/unfair cruel system.
 

Tom

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roll on the utopian society where no one disagree's with anyone, where wars are non-existant and there is a glut of resource for all......oh sorry i was in cloud cookoo land, humans are by nature not very nice and i believe it should be any country's right to deport anyone whom is illegally in their country, human rights are broken, they will always be broken because my idea of what is a human right is different to your's and everyone else's, torture pah as if it was ever stopped, if anyone actually believes there is a single country on this planet that has not used torture recently are kidding themselves. the EHCR runs to its own timetable not to what is required and as such is unfit for purpose, imagine all country's of the world running to the same timetable for detainees as the EHCR lmao now that would be truly an unjust/unfair cruel system.

Punctuation. Learn it.
 

rynnor

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Interesting in that Portillo documentary how everyone was keen on the euro almost without exception.

I can see what the germans gained but the less efficient south just seems to have imported debt which it cant afford?
 

throdgrain

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9 years and 7 years for torturing and robbing a man, then leaving him to die. Meaning they serve 4.5 years and 3.5 years, then get let out and stay in this country. Oh yes, a sad day for Europe indeed, but a sadder day for our country.
 

old.Osy

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150,000 case backlog, an endless sea of bolaks cases supported by a cesspit (my favourite word) of half assed lawyers (spits on floor) bred in the litigation centre of Europe (The UK).
We are infested with them, all leeching of the back of people who actually work for a living, for the love of everything sacred we need a nutter with a machine gun to take them all out.
While they are charging 200 quid an hour to squeeze every last loopho;e out of an ever descending pit of legal
horseshit, real people are being fucked over and abused who's' stories don't warrant attention because they don't tick the PC boxes.
Just fucking disgusting.

At least you will make a colorful old guy.
 

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