Russian school siege

Discussion in 'The Front Room' started by Furr, Sep 3, 2004.

  1. Furr

    Furr Can't get enough of FH

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3624024.stm
    well looks like this has finished in a bloody end , though I thought something like this might happen except with the russian troops storming like the theatre siege it instead of the confusion at the moment. Mainly because the groups demands would never of been met as they were to outlandish.
    Question now is where can the russian government go from this , unfortunatly the most likely situation will be blood for blood in Chechnya though maybe it wont come to that. I wonder if anyone knows what really happened because from the news reports it seems like no one has a clue.
     
  2. Brynn

    Brynn Can't get enough of FH

    it was a fucking farce
     
  3. jaba

    jaba Fledgling Freddie

    Very true, and I dont like the way that the assault seemed totally unplanned as if they just decided it on the spur of the moment. That said what other options did they really have other than to use force? The Chechens have already shown their intentions to kill people if necessary with the destruction of the two planes last week. The rebels were demanding the independence of their country, how can putin just give into demands like that? it would have opened up the floodgates for every other terrorist organisation to grab a hostage and demand anything they want.
     
  4. dr_jo

    dr_jo Fledgling Freddie

    As I understood it, there were some explosions from inside the school, followed by a large amount of gun fire. The safety of the hostages was considerred to be in danger, and so they entered the school.
    I've also heard comments that the first explosion was let off accidentally by the hostage takers, as a group of aid workers approached the building - this was agreed to by the hostage takers.
    I'm not sure we're going to get any conclusive information about the situation for a while - at least until the fighting stops, and they can ask the soldiers involved what happened.
     
  5. Ukle

    Ukle One of Freddy's beloved

    At least if one thing comes out of this slaughter people might understand about the Chechen Situation, and not think as i did until a few days ago that it was just a case of the Russians occupying a people who wanted freedom.

    As to what the Russians do now, well I hope to god they go eye for an eye. I would normally would be against anything of the sort but this situation needs to be stoped and peaceful means have failed in the past so the Chechen's need to be 'pacified', just hope the rest of the world stands by the actions the Russians will most likely take.
     
  6. Ukle

    Ukle One of Freddy's beloved

    Puuting together the bits of news on TV and the net i believe it goes as follows -

    Aid truck / ambulance goes to the school to collect the dead

    Aid truck arrives and a group of 5 children make a run for the gates

    Some of the Chechens on the roof shoot the children running.

    The Russians open fire on the Chechens on the roof.

    The Chechens inside the building must of thought this was part of a larger attack so blew the building.

    Silly thing for the people who shot at the Chechen's shooting the kids (given the numbers of Terrorists involved) but who wouldn't of in there situation.
     
  7. wyrd_fish

    wyrd_fish Fledgling Freddie

    i made an observeation this morning whilst watching the news, and it goes as follows...

    killing 250 people, including childeren atempt to liberate a country = BAD!
    killing hundereds more to atempt liberate a differnt country = GOOD, if your america!

    PS i don't pretend to know much about chechnia(sp?), I haven't looked into it at all, this just occoured to me this morning
     
  8. Tom

    Tom FH is my second home

    I don't think the two compare tbh.
     
  9. throdgrain

    throdgrain FH is my second home

    Silly thing to say really.
     
  10. Wij

    Wij I am a FH squatter FH Subscriber

    facile tbh.
     
  11. Gurnox

    Gurnox One of Freddy's beloved

    As has been previously stated, the question is what does Putin do next?

    The thing that surprised me the most about this is that the Chechens chose a target within the Caucas region. The Kremlin have traditionally tended to be a bit harder in their control of these regions than they would in one of the more central regions. It strikes me that they have done their cause no good at all and have lost many potential sympathisers. Especially when one considers the absolute barbarism in which they ended the lives of more than 250 people.

    Putin now has a license to step up his actions within Chechnia and, perhaps, throw a much tighter security over some of it's neighbouring regions. Putin is a leader with a long career in the Soviet/Russian security services. He will have no qualms whatsoever about razing Chechnia to the ground. Especially as he will now be seen as being in a rather tight corner.

    Scarier still, the Kremlin has already tried to gain a prior international approval for the extension of military action within Chechnia. Bush did Moscow a huge favour in mentioning his support in terms of the wider 'war on terror'. I hope the UN will be a tad more reserved in their wording.
     
  12. Stazbumpa

    Stazbumpa Fledgling Freddie

    Fuck the Islamic militants and their ideals of an independant Chechnya is basically what I say. Putin cannot allow a muslim government on his doorstep, particularly one that thinks taking children hostage is a good idea.
    What sort of government would that make?

    Whilst we're on the subject, fuck the UN too because it seems to me that anything the UN touches turns to shit or gets left to fester. Their consistant uselessness is mind boggling, and that institution in itself is the main reason that certain countries took their own descisions about Iraq, not Bush or Blair as the whinge brigade would like to suggest.

    Nice one. Never heard such complete ill informed bollocks for a long time. Do some research before insulting your own intelligence next time mate. On a plus note, you made me laugh.

    edit:// Before anyone blames the Russian military for what happened, keep in mind who exactly took the hostages in the first place, keep in mind precisely how many hostage situations you have been in so you have a comparison and also ask yourself what you would do if fuck heads started shooting at terrified children right in front of you.
     
  13. Bullitt

    Bullitt One of Freddy's beloved

    A russian spokesperson stated that maybe 10 out of 20 terrorsits were of 'arab' origin which has already made many media sources, and government reps linking the attack to Al Qaeda (sp?). I can only see this getting worse, and imo Bush's 'war on terror' has escalated the ferocity, and aggresiveness of terror attacks - eye for an eye type situation.

    I wouldn't be surprised if a Rainbow Six type organisation were in the planning, or even already implemented.
     
  14. Stazbumpa

    Stazbumpa Fledgling Freddie

    Don't remember a war on terror happening when 9/11 occured mate. Bush's war on terror was the direct result of that, so the Al Quaida only succeeded in marginalising all Arab nations and seriously upsetting the worlds most powerfull nation.

    I personally think that half the militant ravings are bullshit ie: they dont want "freedom from American oppression", 9/11 was a deliberate attempt to provoke a war in a divide an conquer style to set the western countries against each other (which they have done) and prepare for the overthrow of the Saudi Royal family.
    Al Quaida's version of Islam is one that preaches dominance. I have spoken to (and been physichally restrained from beating fuck out of) a man who stated that the Russian school seige was justified because "its a furtherance of the Islamic faith".

    I'm not saying who or where, it will cost me my job, but it happened. This is what these fuck heads believe people. And they are prepared to die for it.
     
  15. Thugs

    Thugs Fledgling Freddie

    Faith

    Here we go again.

    This is just my opinion but shows my thoughts on this and many similar occurances that have taken place. This is not the first such act of barbarism but one of many since records began.

    Presumably people's religious beliefs are behind this atrocity- yet again. I am an atheist. Religion has so much to answer for. I haven't looked beyond forming this opinion yet on this particular episode.

    Do you know that even primitive tribes believed that there was some 'greater being' above controlling things and they could hardly string a sentence together. You know why? Weather mainly and natural happenings - earthquakes or eruptions and so on. If we all realized there isn't any such thing as a 'greater being' and holding onto a restricted and dangerous religious belief is a mistake then so much could be altered in this world.

    Many religions have come about to keep people in some sort of control so that our own natural instincts are kept in check. They form moral and intellectual boundaries so that a lot of people can exist in a small area without everyone killing everyone else as they strive to rise to the top of the pack.

    Consider a world where we were all atheists and to realize that we are all just human beings with misguided ideals, where the weak need support and the strong are not to be allowed to dictate. Just one big world where everyone is the same and all have equal rights. Wouldn't the world start heading for some sort of peace eventually?
     
  16. nath

    nath Fledgling Freddie

    But you said yourself, all these morals came from religion - without it, wouldn't there be a lot more taking what you want because you want it sort of crimes?

    Also, even Stephen Hawking and his immensly scientific brain admits that the current scientific knowledge doesn't disprove the possibility of there being a greater being. I personally don't believe there is one, but I accept the right of others to believe and don't paint them all as idiots for believing in something we don't know exists.
     
  17. Thugs

    Thugs Fledgling Freddie

    Believe?

    It is easier to believe that not.

    As for crimes no I don't think there would be an escalation because society’s crimes are not carried out in the name of religion.

    We need law and order, and morals. Morals in particular have been created as you rightly mentioned by religious prophets. But if you consider what these morals are then you begin to understand that they are necessary for peaceful co-existence. 'Thou should not do this' or Thou should not do that' are right and proper because we need morals and guidance - rules of conduct. But I don't believe such things came about from a 'greater being' but from people that were highly intelligent and attuned to the problems of the day. The human mind is capable of so much and creating morals and laws that can 'hold and entrance' millions of troubled people who are and were under duress is not beyond it. By this I mean one man in particular as we all know.

    This is a tricky subject but why skirt around these issues? If we don't discuss such things then headway will never be made.
     
  18. GekuL

    GekuL Fledgling Freddie

    Somewhere in the universe is a planet populated by clones of me, just like in Red Dwarf. Prove me wrong :-D
     
  19. Bullitt

    Bullitt One of Freddy's beloved

    No prove me your right! You started it!

    Oh and basic laws are derived from religion, it's not religion par-se that's the problem but the fanatics that take it waaaay too seriously and often hide behind it to justify their insanity.
     
  20. Frizz

    Frizz Can't get enough of FH

    I seriously dislike the hostage takers for shooting at children in the back. That's beyond fucked. If you're trying to hide behind a religion in order to justify that sort of action, you're seriously mentally impaired.
     
  21. wyrd_fish

    wyrd_fish Fledgling Freddie

    this is exactally why i stay well away from politics

    i neither claimed to know what i was talking about or that killing childeren was a good thing, it was mearly an observation, how many children do you suppose have died during and after the was in irak?

    PS could someone please enlighten me as to the plight of the chechnians(sp?) i'd be grateful
     
  22. Bodhi

    Bodhi FH is my second home

    I had sex in the back of my car last night.




    That is all.
     
  23. Sar

    Sar Resident Freddy

    Masturbation isn't sex Bodhi.







    ;)
     
  24. Will

    Will /bin/su Staff member Moderator

    I'm afraid to say Bodhi actually made the most useful, and well thought out point.
     
  25. Will

    Will /bin/su Staff member Moderator

    To clarify that, if you think (as many of you appear to) that all Chechan's think that killing schoolkids is a good idea, and that Russia has never done anything bad to the Chechan's, you live in a wonderful black and white world. The school hostage crisis was horrific, yes, but eye for an eye? I think that is what got Russia into this situation in the first place, and it hasn't done Israel, or America, a lot of good either.
     
  26. Freddygotfingered

    Freddygotfingered Fledgling Freddie

    Very sad news the whole russian thing , theres some sick mother f*** in this world.
     
  27. Frizz

    Frizz Can't get enough of FH

    An eye for an eye turns the whole world blind yada yada yada...
     
  28. Will

    Will /bin/su Staff member Moderator

    Dammit Frizz, don't agree with me. I'm in a bad mood, a fight over the interweb would make me feel better. :/

    Fucking work, making me stay here till midnight bastards.
     
  29. Stazbumpa

    Stazbumpa Fledgling Freddie

     
  30. Will

    Will /bin/su Staff member Moderator

    An eye for an eye would mean killing 320 Chechnian schoolkids. Hardly big or clever.

    I'm being a bit of a pedant with that though. The conflict has little to do with Islam. It is (as always) to do with oil. Chechnia has it, so it doesn't get independance, unlike Estonia, Lavtiva, and a load of other former USSR countries.
     

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