Right to Die?

[SawTooTH]

Okay so they are looking at a bill in the house of lords about the right of people to end it all with the help of a Doctor. So called assisted suicide. There have been a few debates on the telly, Panorama for instance, with people presenting the usual views...Slippery slope, next we'll be putting down babies at birth etc.

Generally the against were those born with a disability who obviously value what they have and feel threatened by some Orwellian future where disabilities will not be allowed.

The fores seemed to be people who had a fairly normal life until a disease developed and have got to the point where death is the enevitable outcome, often in pain etc.

To me these seem not to be the same thing?

I cant see anyone, disabled or otherwise wanting to continue life in severe pain so Im leaning towards the fore camp.

Anyone got strong views on this?

 

[Tom]

You can't expect doctors not to obey their Hippocratic oath.

I do think that letting people die is a personal choice though, and should be respected.

 

[Aada]

Okay so they are looking at a bill in the house of lords about the right of people to end it all with the help of a Doctor. So called assisted suicide. There have been a few debates on the telly, Panorama for instance, with people presenting the usual views...Slippery slope, next we'll be putting down babies at birth etc.

Generally the against were those born with a disability who obviously value what they have and feel threatened by some Orwellian future where disabilities will not be allowed.

The fores seemed to be people who had a fairly normal life until a disease developed and have got to the point where death is the enevitable outcome, often in pain etc.

To me these seem not to be the same thing?

I cant see anyone, disabled or otherwise wanting to continue life in severe pain so Im leaning towards the fore camp.

Anyone got strong views on this?

Yup i have a strong view.

If an Adult or even child has severe disability cannot walk/vegetated state then it should be up to the Adult themselfs to decide weather they want themselves or child to live.

I have always told my parents that if anything were to happen to me such as severe brain damage or loss of limbs i would want to be put to sleep there is no way in hell that i would want to so call live life like that how can you live a life like that? not being able to walk? not even go to the bathroom by yourself? feed yourself? go out without spending 1 hour getting all the essentials? never being able to go to a theme park? always being looked at?

Sorry i have too much self respect for that, if it were me i would go to Switzerland where you can have a doctor help you commit suicide its painless and very quick almost like being put to sleep to have an operation you feel nothing for 20-60 seconds and the pain/suffering is gone.

Im not in anyway saying disabled people are 2nd class citizens i'm just pointing out my view if it were me or my future children i would not want them to suffer.

 

[DaGaffer]

Problem Solved:

On a more serious note, we're getting into a fairly murky area here, and the potential for abuse is enormous. I also think its a pretty heavy psychological burden to give a doctor; it cuts across their basic ethical framework. I don't have a problem with the idea of someone in pain wishing to kill themselves, but I don't think it should be burden laid at the Doctor's door (and no, I can't think of a credible alternative; a specialist 'assistor' perhaps? What a hit they'd be at dinner parties...)

 

[SawTooTH]

You can't expect doctors not to obey their Hippocratic oath.

I do think that letting people die is a personal choice though, and should be respected.

But what about the right of a pain free death?

 

[Tom]

There is no right to a pain-free death in this country.

 

[DaGaffer]

But what about the right of a pain free death?

You don't have a 'right' to a pain free death. Any more than you have a 'right' to a pain free life come to think of it. They were talking about some of the ethical considerations on the Today programme this morning, and despite being 'pro-choice' on this matter, I could see why the Royal College of Physicians is against this legislation.

 

[noblok]

I think people who ask for a doctor to help them are actually too afraid of dying, so they want to give the doctor the responsibility instead of assuming it themselves. I wouldn't mind if the doctors would supply the means to the person wishing to die though.

People should assume their responsibility. I think it's a sign of great cowardice if you won't even assume full responsibility for your own 'suicide'.

 

[Rubber Bullets]

I think people who ask for a doctor to help them are actually too afraid of dying, so they want to give the doctor the responsibility instead of assuming it themselves. I wouldn't mind if the doctors would supply the means to the person wishing to die though.

People should assume their responsibility. I think it's a sign of great cowardice if you won't even assume full responsibility for your own 'suicide'.

I think you're kinda missing the point, though some may feel this way.

Most people in this position are more than happy to assume responsibility, but are physically incapable of carrying out the act. Friends and family may also be quite happy to assist, but under current legislation would lay themselves open to prosecution for manslaughter or even murder.

What must be achieved is that no patient feels pressured to take this course of action.

RB

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well, until your parents are dead, your a** belongs to them.

After that, i say "do whatever".

Agree on the potential abuse on it though.

 

[Sharma]

I believe if they are in a large amount of pain and death is a certainty, it's cruel to keep them alive, and because of the legislation in this country i'd rather not be stuck in the positon where im in constant excruciating pain without the option to pass away and end it at that moment.

It's horrible when you see that the person is given say 6 months to live and theyre in constant pain, given the option, would you want to live through those 6 months before eventually passing away?

Euthanasia is a slippery slope though, since you effectively need the consent of the patient and there are some conditions which disable speech (Motor neuron?).

I do believe it should be legal.

 

[SawTooTH]

A painfree death is the preserve of the well off at the moment. Those that can afford to go to Switzerland at least.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2676837.stm

It seems a little harsh to have to go through a painful death so that a few PC moralists can sleep better at night.

I have a low pain threshold

 

[DaGaffer]

A painfree death is the preserve of the well off at the moment. Those that can afford to go to Switzerland at least.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2676837.stm

It seems a little harsh to have to go through a painful death so that a few PC moralists can sleep better at night.

I have a low pain threshold

Excuse me? Why is it 'PC' to be concerned about ethics? If you actually bother to read the RCS' concerns, they have a lot of valid points. Its not a simple case of ending people's suffering, there are much wider issues at stake.

 

[kanonfodda]

I agree that people should have the choice, but it is certainly open to abuse.

People already have living wills however, so why not extend that. So they can make the decision upon diagnosis?

"If I am going to die slowly and painfully, hit me wit shovel" etc.

I do however think it should not be left at the doctors door to deal with. Certainly make it legal for people to end their lives, but don't make a doctor do it. That's just harsh

On another note, who here has/has had pets? Did/would you make them die naturally if they were in pain, or would you ask the vet to put them to sleep?

seems we treat our pets a lot better than our sick/disabled...

 

[Mey]

It seems a little harsh to have to go through a painful death so that a few PC moralists can sleep better at night

You, Sir have clearly never studied Ethics; Ethics in general is far from PC.

From my point of view, we should be allowed to end it if we wish (this would have to be governed heavily though to stop abuse and unsound judgements [right of mind is a hard thing to judge]) If a person can go to the high court for the right of to life the same should apply for the right to die.

Mey.

 

[Aada]

I agree that people should have the choice, but it is certainly open to abuse.

People already have living wills however, so why not extend that. So they can make the decision upon diagnosis?

"If I am going to die slowly and painfully, hit me wit shovel" etc.

I do however think it should not be left at the doctors door to deal with. Certainly make it legal for people to end their lives, but don't make a doctor do it. That's just harsh

On another note, who here has/has had pets? Did/would you make them die naturally if they were in pain, or would you ask the vet to put them to sleep?

seems we treat our pets a lot better than our sick/disabled...

Sometimes when walking down the street and i see someone badly vegetated to the point where they are drooling all ove themselves and basicly have no self control, i can't help but think how selfish the parent/guardian is by letting them continue on this way until they die.

Its like that thing in the papers last year of how a SAS soldier killed his son because he had a terminal illness and would not live past 12 years old he couldn't bare to see his son in pain all the time so ended it for him.

However the mother wanted the child to live as long as possible i can see why a mother has a much more emotional attachment to a child after carrying them for 9 months but there has to come a point where you think:

Are they keeping them alive because they cannot bare to see them die? even though they are going to die it seems they want to keep hold of them for aslong as possible.

From a personal point of view when my brother died last march from a very very rare form of cancer the last 4 weeks when he was told he was going to die was unbearable but at the same time he said he wasn't too bothered because he said in his words ''ive had enough''

 

[DaGaffer]

Sometimes when walking down the street and i see someone badly vegetated to the point where they are drooling all ove themselves and basicly have no self control, i can't help but think how selfish the parent/guardian is by letting them continue on this way until they die.

And the counter-argument is "Stephen Hawking". I wouldn't want to live like that, but as an outside observer you can't make that judgement, unfortunately, what's going on inside often has nothing to do with what's going on outside (which is probably even worse for the individual concerned).

 

[SawTooTH]

Excuse me? Why is it 'PC' to be concerned about ethics? If you actually bother to read the RCS' concerns, they have a lot of valid points. Its not a simple case of ending people's suffering, there are much wider issues at stake.

Point taken, but it depends on how widespread it would be. I dont believe in the state deciding who should live or die which is one argument being put forward. This would have to be so carefully regulated and only for those who clearly have demonstrated the desire, uncoersed and with full medical backing , psychological reports / interviews should be allowed. How its done is another major problem.


But as far as personal freedoms go, I do believe I have a right over my own body and if I wanted to end it because I was suffereing Id like to be able to do it without jumping off a bridge or taking an overdose etc.

 

[DaGaffer]

...This would have to be so carefully regulated and only for those who clearly have demonstrated the desire, uncoersed and with full medical backing , psychological reports / interviews should be allowed. How its done is another major problem...

Problem is how you do that in a timely fashion? By defintion the sufferer will want to get on with it, while the regulator will want to make sure the all the other stuff is checked off. Kind of pointless to make some poor bastard suffer undue stress by going through months or years of beauracratic hoops, just so they can kill themselves.

I can think of other issues; what about insurance? Does the family of an assisted suicide get the payout? I'm guessing the insurance industry says no...

 

[Tom]

Sometimes when walking down the street and i see someone badly vegetated to the point where they are drooling all ove themselves and basicly have no self control, i can't help but think how selfish the parent/guardian is by letting them continue on this way until they die.

Its like that thing in the papers last year of how a SAS soldier killed his son because he had a terminal illness and would not live past 12 years old he couldn't bare to see his son in pain all the time so ended it for him.

However the mother wanted the child to live as long as possible i can see why a mother has a much more emotional attachment to a child after carrying them for 9 months but there has to come a point where you think:

So long as that person, within their own limited boundaries, is happy and well looked after - I see no reason why selfishness comes into the equation.

I take offence at your suggestion that women have a stronger bond with children than men.

 

[noblok]

Most people in this position are more than happy to assume responsibility, but are physically incapable of carrying out the act.

True, I assumed that people would be able to give themselves an injection. If you're completely paralysed or something similar, it's a different matter. If they can't do it themselves, they should be allowed to ask someone else to do it for them.

Another thing I don't support is deciding in advance under which circumstances you'd want to live. This mainly is because I don't believe in a 'fixed' identity. People change over time, so possibly you can still enjoy life under circumstances which would now seem impossible to you.

That's the same reason why I think that family shouldn't decide for people who can not express their feelings any longerr (due to being in a coma, fully paralysed, ...). You don't know what they feel and saying "He wouldn't want to have lived like this" is not enough to convince me. When I was 10 I wanted different things than I want now. If aging is enough to make you change that much, then certainly a disease or accident can do that as well?

 

[nath]

I take offence at your suggestion that women have a stronger bond with children than men.

Oh come on, they clearly do. Aside from anything else, it's just the nature of our species, and indeed most species. Mothers form the strongest bond with their kids while the fathers go off and get the food.

What I find offensive is the fact that Aada seems to think that anyone with a serious disability wants to die. It's pretty rude to suggest that the guy in the wheelchair being shuffled around by his caregiver has no quality of life to speak of. It's condescending tbh.

 

[rynnor]

What I find offensive is the fact that Aada seems to think that anyone with a serious disability wants to die. It's pretty rude to suggest that the guy in the wheelchair being shuffled around by his caregiver has no quality of life to speak of. It's condescending tbh.

Aye, theres a number of issues here, people who are born with a disability often cope extremely well with them and have a good life even with extreme disabilities.

People who were previously healthy who gain a disability often find it extremely difficult to adjust and may well be tempted in the early stages by suicide. But given time and support they too can have a decent quality of life. Thats why a right to assisted suicide can be dangerous - people who would otherwise face their problems and could adjust are given a terrible alternative.

On the other hand I have watched my Uncle die a lingering death of cancer when the morphine could no longer manage the pain and who attempted suicide by overdosing several times to be forceably rescucitated against his will - in such cases assisted suicide would be a great mercy for a fellow human being.

On balance I think individuals should have the right to die if they wish and to have assistance to make this as painless as possible but it must be their choice.

 

[Sharma]

I think it's a bit pathetic when the Pro-life guys say "No" when someone says "I want to die".

Have studied Euthanasia when I was in school and basically the pro-life types seem to think it's their right to campaign and stop people who WANT to die from killing themselves. What a bunch of twats.

 

[nath]

That is pretty stupid, but then there's plenty of other arguements already mentioned here that are more reasonable.

 

[Sharma]

Aye, tis.

But still, have seen a few videos of these people spouting rubbish saying how "its every living beings right to live" and justifying it but they immediately dodged any questions concerning when a person has actually stated that they dont want to die.

It's very biased, I mean how would they react if someone close IE father/mother were dying of a degenerative disease and are in constant pain? If they said they wanted to die and get it over with, how would these pro-life types deal with it? No offense but id love to see how they could deal with having views as they do and someone close to them wishes to die because of neverending pain.