Reason for leaving HoL

[Gillan]

Ok this a post just to make thing easier for me, since ppl are asking why I left Hand of Loki.

It's about what is said here:
http://forums.barrysworld.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50026

One or some of the GM's didnt like that post, and I have to clarify: this was my personal opinion, NOT HoL's opinion (nor is it a contridiction to HoL's policy). I wont go into details as to the issue in hand, to respect the people still in the guild and the guilds reputation.

Anyways this resulted in a disagrement between me and one of the Gm's mainly so I felt it wa best for HoL if I left the guild. I would like to thank all of you former guildmates, it was truly a nice time, I like all of you alot, hope to see you all around.

 

[Carlos Bananos]

i love u

 

[leodin]

Love to love u Niki, I*m sad to see u go =(
/Gedan

 

[Kaah-Venom]

Sad to see you go Niki. You are one of the most skilled SBs Ive seen. Wish you could rethink your decision but somehow I dont think that will happen.

 

[Hatt]

Originally posted by Carlos Bananos
i love u

She's mine grrr

GL Niki whatever you'll do now
:wub:

 

[kaod]

Originally posted by niki
Ok this a post just to make thing easier for me, since ppl are asking why I left Hand of Loki.

It's about what is said here:
http://forums.barrysworld.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50026

One or some of the GM's didnt like that post, and I have to clarify: this was my personal opinion, NOT HoL's opinion (nor is it a contridiction to HoL's policy). I wont go into details as to the issue in hand, to respect the people still in the guild and the guilds reputation.

Anyways this resulted in a disagrement between me and one of the Gm's mainly so I felt it wa best for HoL if I left the guild. I would like to thank all of you former guildmates, it was truly a nice time, I like all of you alot, hope to see you all around.

I'm sure that if you yourself were not interested enough to listen to my own thoughts on this whole situation, noone else here is either. Quite why you wouldn't hear me out in private and stated I could respond to it publicly is beyond me.

I could have responded to the initial post, but in the interests of our friendship and because my views on it are heavily guild related, I figured it best not to air our laundry in public.

If you so wish, I will make those comments in response.

All in all, a very sad day, and I respect your rights and wishes to depart.
I wish you good luck and would like you to know that I wouln't hesitate to group with you again if the opportunity arose, and thank you for all the great times we had.

 

[old.Saborion]

Originally posted by niki
Ok this a post just to make thing easier for me, since ppl are asking why I left Hand of Loki.

It's about what is said here:
http://forums.barrysworld.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50026

One or some of the GM's didnt like that post, and I have to clarify: this was my personal opinion, NOT HoL's opinion (nor is it a contridiction to HoL's policy). I wont go into details as to the issue in hand, to respect the people still in the guild and the guilds reputation.

Anyways this resulted in a disagrement between me and one of the Gm's mainly so I felt it wa best for HoL if I left the guild. I would like to thank all of you former guildmates, it was truly a nice time, I like all of you alot, hope to see you all around.

If anyone care about my opinion... If someone post something stupid, I would never look at the signature and think "omg, that guild has some f*cked up players". There are rotten eggs everywhere and that`s a fact. If your GM disagreed with that post, which made VERY much sense to me, then he sucks and I would too depart from a guild that had a GM that starts discussions over something like that. Good call by you imo. See you in emain. =)

 

[mhorr]

Thx to tell me that i suck Sab

Anyhow i think Niki made the things much more bigger that they are and still feeding up w fuel.

If every1 wannna know now, since it is of public domain now
all started cuz i asked to niki
"Niki pls next time u're going to post something on BW pls talk to me b4 pls" that's all, in fact GMs and officiers from HoL i my point of view arent so free to speak on the boards about things that may go against HoL polocy, that's all, a memeber too can be warned after he did it but an officer have some responsability of his/her own acting to the guild. And u all know putting a signature mean u are being recognised as that guild even if u say it's a personal matter.

Said that my dear Sab i would like to see if u posted something about your guild ( assuming u were the GM) adn another officier of same guild without neither asking guild stance about that matter, would have posted someting completely opposite...

Since HoL made the 1st Shadowzerg on this server and where mainly aimed to kill Fgs.. even if sometimes some loner can be ganked...ah well who isnt ganker/ganked in this game ? Do u ever saw me whine for being ganked ?

So HoL posistion to shadowzergs is neutral w inclination to support it in some cases so u all know.

I'm sad u left tho Niki but pls dont say it was due to Gm censure cuz i only asked u, in quality of our officier, to consult the guild b4 to make any petition against a think we where used to make.


EDIT:_ if shadowzergs are lame pls tell all those hibs/albs to come alone in emain
Mhorr out

 

[Gillan]

Mhorr, I did nowt wanna go into details here but as you already did I feel i have the right to defend myself.

If every1 wannna know now, since it is of public domain now
all started cuz i asked to niki
"Niki pls next time u're going to post something on BW pls talk to me b4 pls" that's all, in fact GMs and officiers from HoL i my point of view arent so free to speak on the boards about things that may go against HoL polocy, that's all, a memeber too can be warned after he did it but an officer have some responsability of his/her own acting to the guild.

Firstly, this is censorship and that is something I feel very strongly about. I am a free thinking individual, I live in world and a nation that strongly opposis against any form of oppresion against the written or spoken word. I feel I have a right to say and type whatever i want, whenever I want, as long as I'm saying it's my opinion, not anyone elses. I can't be in a guild where you have to ask the permission of a GM to say what you want.

Secondly, you are totally wrong saying shadowzergs is HoL policy, it is nowhere said that it is, nor it is said that shadowzergs are bad. HoL does not have a policy against or for shadowzerging. Therefor I feel I have the right to express my views on the issue publicly. HoL does not have a policy against of for grayganking either, so some people do it, some people dont, and if someone view there opinon in the matter he or she shouldnt be punished for that either.

Thirdly, if I work at McDonalds and I say somewhere "I don't like meat" do you really think that all the people that read or hear that think thats that just what everyone else working on McDonalds think about it?

A guild is not a political organisation where everyone must think the same all the time, but when you start punishing people for expressing themselfs, then you cross a very important line.

I'm sure that if you yourself were not interested enough to listen to my own thoughts on this whole situation, noone else here is either. Quite why you wouldn't hear me out in private and stated I could respond to it publicly is beyond me.

I could have responded to the initial post, but in the interests of our friendship and because my views on it are heavily guild related, I figured it best not to air our laundry in public.

Kaod, you are just one GM among five, for me it is enough that one GM feel that way about the freedome of speech. I can't be in a guild that allowes that kind of GM.

If you would have respoinded on my post saying: I'm all for shadowzerging, I'm all for rp leeching, I'd say ok thats you're opinion, respect.

'Couse this is what it's all comes down to, respect each others opinions.

Peace and Love folks.

Stop the War

 

[old.Leel]

Uh, if I have something to say, I will say it, and it has nothing to do with me being gm of fom or anything, hmk? Everything I post is my personal opinion, and I expect the same from other people.
You sound like some politician, Mhorr. This game is not about politics.

 

[old.Saborion]

Originally posted by mhorr
Thx to tell me that i suck Sab


Said that my dear Sab i would like to see if u posted something about your guild ( assuming u were the GM) adn another officier of same guild without neither asking guild stance about that matter, would have posted someting completely opposite...

Mhorr out

lol
omg...
As someone said, it`s a game. You really take that officer and stuff seriously? Never heard such nonsense.... policys etc. As someone said, if I post something, it`s my opinion, not my guilds. If I were in a guild and some "GM" said to me, "Talk to me before posting stuff like that", then I would leave. Simple as that. If the GM on the other said, "You know, posting stuff like that makes the guild look bad" for something that was guild related, then I could understand it. When I browsed that first post by Niki I never felt that it had anything to do with her guild, cannot even recall mentioning it, although she might`ve since I only browsed it.

And regarding me possibly being a GM and all that officer crap. Well... go have a look at Storm at either the chronicles or duskwave and see for yourself how the members of Storm handle GM and "officer" things.

Sidenote: Although Storm doesn`t really exist anymore in my eyes. Seriously thinking about finding me a new guild, if any guild wants me after this post that is.

 

[kaod]

I still don't really wish to be drawn into this issue too much publicly...

I don't agree with or particularly like the fact you shut the door on me clarifying the situation and trying to address the problems that arose, the fact that you made your reasons known here and made it everyones business with even such a limited description leads me to believe your agenda here is not so spotless.
That could be wholly unfair on my part, however this is how I see it and I apologise greatly if this really isn't the case.

Mhorr in the effort of trying to defend himself, clearly allowed you to open the door fuller, which is unfortunately what I expected.

What you have written about how I may have responded is nowhere near how I would respond to your post - You know how I respond to things I don't agree with, and I was never prepared to do that with you in a public forum.
I don't think you realise quite how much I do disagree with them.

It's a sad enough thing that you left, sad that you didn't really want to listen privately to me and on at that basis at least I really don't want this whole thing to become a childish argument.

As for your opinions, whether you were wrong to express them - as I always tried to state, I am neutral to them - they don't specifically contradict guild policy, it's something of a grey area IMO, and your status as an officer of the guild and the rules that were presented to you upon taking that rank did state that you were expected to never publicly question or voice comments that oppose the policies we agreed to.
You may or may not have broken that - however you agreed to some form of cenorship back then, and now you lay claim to total freedom of speech.
I'm a little confused by this.

I urge again, please lets not make this topic any sadder than it already is for us all.

 

[kaod]

Originally posted by old.Saborion


lol
omg...
As someone said, it`s a game. You really take that officer and stuff seriously? Never heard such nonsense.... policys etc. As someone said, if I post something, it`s my opinion, not my guilds. If I were in a guild and some "GM" said to me, "Talk to me before posting stuff like that", then I would leave. Simple as that. If the GM on the other said, "You know, posting stuff like that makes the guild look bad" for something that was guild related, then I could understand it. When I browsed that first post by Niki I never felt that it had anything to do with her guild, cannot even recall mentioning it, although she might`ve since I only browsed it.

And regarding me possibly being a GM and all that officer crap. Well... go have a look at Storm at either the chronicles or duskwave and see for yourself how the members of Storm handle GM and "officer" things.

Sidenote: Although Storm doesn`t really exist anymore in my eyes. Seriously thinking about finding me a new guild, if any guild wants me after this post that is.

Sab I think you are being very narrowminded here.
If you joined a guild that had rules and they too official, or unacceptable you'd leave straight away right?
If you became an officer and rules were presented to you that you never would or could agree to, you'd leave.

The fact that some guilds have rules different to the ones you have been part of is because everyone likes to play such an open game differently.
Obviously the offical level of the rules and policies we enforced were acceptable to the players and members, and you have no right in judging people for how they play or for other guilds policies.
If you wanted to join and you didn't like our rules - fair enough, thats your right to go elsewhere and I certainly would hold no malice for you wishing to play the game in the parameters you set for yourself.
I believe most alliances will have at least one "nonsense" (read: policy) - and thats the use of /as.

Edit: And to be prefectly honest I could care less about how STORMs bickering and the policies they tried to enforce and I'm sure Mhorr feels the same way.

 

[Gillan]

Kaod, the world does not evolve around you, what you have to say on the matter is 1/5 of what the GM's have to say. For me its enough that one GM (Mhorr) is in favour of censoring to leave.

Wheather or not you agree on what my opinion is NOT the issue, try to understand that. That is totally irrelevant. Mhorr want to censor me 'couse he dont agree with me, I can't accept that sorry.

Said it once, will say it again, HoL did not have ANY policies, rules on shadowzergs so I was in full right to post what I feel on bw.

About childish arguments, I feel I'm to much of an adult to go down that road, been there done that.

And this has lead to a public discussion brought on by youself and Mhorr, and you have only yourself to blame on it turning that way, I was happy in leaving this by my first post but you had to go poke.

 

[kaod]

Originally posted by niki
Kaod, the world does not evolve around you, what you have to say on the matter is 1/5 of what the GM's have to say. For me its enough that one GM (Mhorr) is in favour of censoring to leave.

The world actually evolving around us aside, I know it doesn't revolve around me.
However, I think it's no real secret that I tend to be the most active of the GM's out of the 5 in terms of dealing with guild issues and my sadness lay with the fact you wouldn't even hear me out - on a matter than you had very little idea of my opinions.
I considered us to friends in the guild - not the greatest of friends, but how quickly you threw that back into my face.

Originally posted by niki
Wheather or not you agree on what my opinion is NOT the issue, try to understand that. That is totally irrelevant. Mhorr want to censor me 'couse he dont agree with me, I can't accept that sorry.
[/B]

It is not entirely the issue, I made reference to it in passing that I didn't want to air my views about it - thats all. You then speculated on my response.

Originally posted by niki
Said it once, will say it again, HoL did not have ANY policies, rules on shadowzergs so I was in full right to post what I feel on bw.[/B]

Not strictly true. There is a set of policies on the forum. There is no specific mention of the shadowzerg and it would take me well into your initial post to expand on this matter.

Originally posted by niki
About childish arguments, I feel I'm to much of an adult to go down that road, been there done that.[/B]

Well seems you took a wrong turn somehwere and you are lost on that very road again I'm afraid.

Originally posted by niki
And this has lead to a public discussion brought on by youself and Mhorr, and you have only yourself to blame on it turning that way, I was happy in leaving this by my first post but you had to go poke. [/B]

I'm sorry Niki, but just as you did with speculating on my stance of the "censorship" you are including me somewhat unfairly here.
I can only assume I was the "or some" of the GM's with Mhorr being the one.

I simply said that I was sad you didn't want to discuss it privately - YOU told me to reply to the post you would make on here, when all I wanted to do was talk privately.
I then mention the initial post and that I didn't agree with it.
Offered to ellaborate.
Closed with saying how sad it all was and signing off what I considered quite nicely.

You are making me believe more and more now that your only intention was to hurt the guild on the basis of an opinion you didn't agree with.
Until the GM's vote on the cenorship rule, all it is is an opinion.
Opinions are supposedly ok, only if it became a rule should it really have become a concern.

It really wouldn't have been too much trouble to cite some other reason for leaving the guild to let it go quitely - It was absolutely inevitable it would lead to all this.

 

[old.Lethul]

stop haxxing BW niki, lets concentrate on those infs at amg for now :wub:

 

[old.Saborion]

Originally posted by kaod



Edit: And to be prefectly honest I could care less about how STORMs bickering and the policies they tried to enforce and I'm sure Mhorr feels the same way.

Seems like I didn`t make myself clear in my last post. =)
Only been part of Storm, nothing else. And Storm does NOT have any policies or anything like that. We`re a bunch of people that like to play together, that`s it. And instead of running around soloing we form a guild. =)

But enough about this, you have your opinion, I have mine. Arguing on the Internet is... well, f*cked up. =)

 

[kaod]

Originally posted by old.Saborion


Seems like I didn`t make myself clear in my last post. =)
Only been part of Storm, nothing else. And Storm does NOT have any policies or anything like that. We`re a bunch of people that like to play together, that`s it. And instead of running around soloing we form a guild. =)

But enough about this, you have your opinion, I have mine. Arguing on the Internet is... well, f*cked up. =)

And the reasons for the guild, it;'s common lack of polices and your opinions on arguing... totally respect that,

/salute.

 

[Gillan]

Ok Kaod I will try to explain this so you might understand it this time.

What you Kaod think of shadowzerg issue is of no relevance what so ever, this is not what we arer discussing.

What we are talking about is the issue of censoring.

I feel I have the right to speak my mind, wheneven, whatever if I feel something is prohibiting me from me doing that I try to change that. In this case a GM asked me to not air me views before checking with him.

This is the issue, please try to understand that. I am not saying you are against- or pro- (god forbid) censoring, I never tried to speculate on that matter.

To me its enough that one GM think so for me to leave the guild, therefore what you had to say to me in private was totally irrelevant.

And I think its very, very, very bad for a guild to still have a gm that thinks that way. There is a word for people trying to smithe others peoples right to talk freely and thats a fascist.

Now you can call me names, and try to make me look bad by saying the stuff you just did, but frankly I dont care, this was not an attempt to make HoL look bad but you are quickly doing that favour for yourself, as you are a GM and everything u say here reflects on what HoL thinks, anyway that is the way Mhorr seems to think.

 

[Driwen]

Quit threads are really hard to write properly and shouldnt be done to lightly and on a public board. If you hadnt wanted to harm HoL, it would have been wise to keep it away from a board that has nothing to do with the argument of HoL and you.
I dont know your reasons for making this thread, niki, or your ideas behind it. However it does tend to look that you did want a discussion about the fact and have it in the open for everyone to see. You could have known that if you leave a guild with such an argument that making a thread will evoke discussions.

Now on the matter I dont think a person should refrained from saying their opinion not even irl. However your posts there might have been offensive to ppl who group up, because they find it more fun. Now I dont know what your GM said about it precisely, but maybe he is an ass maybe he was just upset about it. It can happen and you might have given the rest of the gm's sometime to respond to it. GM's make mistakes just like every other person does and instead of just giving the guild some time to understand what has happened you acted.
And everything what you say or not say will reflect on you as a person and eventually on your guild. People will understand that if one person says something it isnt the guilds view, but if enough say the same thing, they will accept it as general view of the guild. But then again your guild should be with the persons who share the same idea's about this game . Atleast thats my view of it.
So in the end I think that leaving your guild most likely wasnt so bad, but making the post like you did wasnt so smart. Atleast unless you wanted a discussion about this subject .

BTW I know i havent got a real matter in this discussion as it is between you and the rest of HoL, but by putting it here on BW and not on HoL's forum or in some kind of chat in game. You put it up for public discussion.

GL and hf in daoc niki, hope your new guild will fit you well and you have lots of fun there

 

[kaod]

Originally posted by niki
Ok Kaod I will try to explain this so you might understand it this time.

I understand all this just fine Niki - I mentioned that I made comment to the original post in passing - nothing more. You chose yourself to respond to my comments. I urge you to check back if you want confirmation of this.

Originally posted by niki
What you Kaod think of shadowzerg issue is of no relevance what so ever, this is not what we arer discussingi.[/B]

See above, and the fact I refered back to it when you mentioned policies. You may think the 2 are not connected, but this is largely due to the fact that you don't wish - yet again, to hear my opinions. Not much I can do about that but I will use all I can to try to defend my point.

Originally posted by niki
What we are talking about is the issue of censoring.

I feel I have the right to speak my mind, wheneven, whatever if I feel something is prohibiting me from me doing that I try to change that. In this case a GM asked me to not air me views before checking with him.

This is the issue, please try to understand that. I am not saying you are against- or pro- (god forbid) censoring, I never tried to speculate on that matter.[/B]

The speculate part came from what you said in officer chat Niki - You lined me up alongside Mhorrs comments before I had even entered the discussion and despite me trying to tell you different you never let up on that.
It wouldn't have hurt either to hear me out, but I'm glad that I now know exactly how lowly you regard me as you seem to have very little interest in my opinions.

Originally posted by niki
To me its enough that one GM think so for me to leave the guild, therefore what you had to say to me in private was totally irrelevant.

And I think its very, very, very bad for a guild to still have a gm that thinks that way. There is a word for people trying to smithe others peoples right to talk freely and thats a fascist.[/B]

I really wish you, like others would not evade issues then Niki - please respond to my previous comment regarding the restriction you agreed to upon becoming an officer.

Originally posted by niki
Now you can call me names, and try to make me look bad by saying the stuff you just did, but frankly I dont care, this was not an attempt to make HoL look bad but you are quickly doing that favour for yourself, as you are a GM and everything u say here reflects on what HoL thinks, anyway that is the way Mhorr seems to think. [/B]

I really don't think I am doing anything other than trying to respond to the comments you put out and also to defend the guild.
It is you who seem to be continually rounding on me now, and attributing things to me that were never said. I notice that you don't dispute that - and more conveniently, don't publicly address it by way of correction.

If my comments are judged to be the view of 5/5 of the Guild leadership, then well so be it. These views are my own, and in my opinion you have done the guildmates that you say you love a great diservice by the way you have publicy voiced your reasons to depart.

The first post, just like the initial post that started it all, is oh so near to being cleverly disguised - but instead of telling people via /gu or even posting it on our own guild forum, you were intent of coming to BW.
As for you stating it was not an attempt to make the guild look bad... we can all type and say such easy words Niki... whether they are the truth is now sadly left for everyone to decide for themselves.

What you said to me shortly after leaving sums up why you used this format Niki - It's just a guild.

It's a little more than that to some of the people still in it - and you have let them down IMO.

 

[Mundokar]

May i sum up the content of this thread :

Your GM asked you to discuss with him in private chat the things that were problematic to you. Its not censorship, its common sense. If ppl talk to one another 1on1 a lot of things can be clarified.

Can we now close this thread plz.

 

[Runolaz]

Sad to see this here...this IMHO should be kept ingame.

As to the initial debate, some rules are writtin and some are not. I think issues like the one in question is something that should have been discussed within HoL before posting on BW, and I think that is what Mhorr tried to tell you. That IMO has nothing to do with censoring someone, it's about showing respect to your guild m8. I think it is a viable question to take up stealther zerg, nothing wrong in that, but have a discussion within HoL would worked better. As to the other issue Niki raised, it's called Realm vs Realm...deal with it, cuz you come across a bit selfish if you ask me. Realm wars is about Teameffort, you can't one day say that "I want that kill for myself" and the next day "we can do em if we cooperate".

 

[Sol-]

giv luv

 

[mirak_naijmi]

This isnt my disscusion mates. But i am sad to see this happen. I know as a former memeber of HoL that it is a good guild and i dont want anything bad to happen you! But this isnt good to either HoL or you Niki, end the disscusion and get it deleted by a forum moderator or something.

 

[Gekul]

Believe it or not HoL has it's own forums :/

 

[Cronn]

This thread is amazing, never seen so many shadown00bs in one place.

Oh wait yes I have, it's called AMG.

 

[kaod]

Originally posted by Cronn
This thread is amazing, never seen so many shadown00bs in one place.

Oh wait yes I have, it's called AMG.

Ironic that the only funny thing about your post is your lack of wit and originality wouldn't you say?

 

[froler-mid]

Hi gimps!

 

[kaod]

Originally posted by froler-mid
Hi gimps!

Wrong area Remi - Aussie and Skile frequent the ALBION section.