RAs through high-level PvE on normal servers.

[Svartmetall]

Radical suggestion, put up for people to discuss...please try and keep this one intelligent, constructive and flame-free.

Here's something I've noticed happening for a long time, that DAOC is getting more and more polarised between RvR players who dislike PvE and PvE players who dislike RvR. I happen to be one of the latter. I don't give a damn about "pwning" in RvR, if I want PvP action I'll play Quake 3 where there's always a level playing field. The only reason I RvR at all is to get RAs to make me a better PvE tank; I don't do RvR for its own sake, I simply don't enjoy it. And, similarly, there are RvR players who ONLY PvE to get artifacts or level them, they don't do PvE for its own sake, they simply don't enjoy it.

DAOC is NOT an "RvR game", it's a game with a mix of PvE and RvR. As time has worn on it has become more and more apparent to everyone with an optic nerve that individual players will tend to gravitate to one or the other part of the game.

One thing I'm increasingly convinced would be a good idea is to have the same abilities acquirable through both sides of the game, because let's face it, FORCING players to do something they dislike in a game is pretty crappy. Here's how things stand at the moment:
RvR players HATE being forced to PvE to level artifacts etc so they can kick more ass in RvR.
PvE players HATE being forced to RvR to get RAs so they can kick more ass in PvE.
So, how about this: why not have RAs acquirable through high-level PvE a la Gaheris (on co-op servers, frontier keeps are infested with high-level mobs, you have to kill all of these and drop the uber "keep lord" mob to get RPs) on normal servers ? And have ALL artis earn XP through RvR as well.

Think about it, before any RvR-only evangelists leap in with some "DAOC IS RVR GAME U MUST WANT TO PWNZ0R PVE IS CAREBEAR" rant.

THINK about this.

RvR player:
If you hate PvE, it could be argued that you shouldn't be playing DAOC at all and Quake etc would be better suited to you - no PvE at ALL, no levelling "grind", always a level playing field, just pure skill to determine who does best. But, "fuck off to game X" attitudes don't help anyone. For whatever reason, even though you hate PvE, you play DAOC. Fine, welcome aboard. The more the merrier. It would therefore be best for you, as a player, if you could get your RAs and level your artifacts etc by playing the part of the game you enjoy the most - RvR - and not feel forced to PvE to get artifact XP etc.

PvE player:
If you hate RvR, it could be argued that you shouldn't be playing DAOC at all and EQ etc would be better suited to you - no RvR at all, huge PvE spaces to roam and hunt in. But, "fuck off to game X" attitudes don't help anyone. For whatever reason, even though you hate RvR, you play DAOC. Fine, welcome aboard. The more the merrier. It would therefore be best for you, as a player, if you could get your RAs and level your artifacts etc by playing the part of the game you enjoy the most - PvE - and not feel forced to RvR to get RAs etc.

This way, DAOC players of all persuasions get to enjoy playing a game with both PvE AND RvR in the way they like to play. No-one is "forced" to do anything they don't want to. RvR players can do PvE stuff if they WANT, but won't be FORCED to. PvE players can venture into RvR if they WANT, but won't be FORCED to. Everybody's happy.
In fact, I'd wager players of either persuasion would be more, not less, likely to venture into the "other side" of the game if going there was a matter of choice and not something you were FORCED into because it was the only available way to progress your character or level your new TOA toys after hitting 50.

RvR players thinking of bitching about PvE players having (after doing TONS of high-level PvE they themselves would never contemplate or enjoy doing) lots of RAs should bear this in mind: a PvE player with tons of RAs is going to be no factor in your RvR experience. He or she will have done high-level PvE you hate to get RAs to do PvE more efficiently/enjoyably and will be using them in PvE, not against you. Hell I'd make the equivalent of RR10 through PvE happily, and it wouldn't unbalance RvR at all because I simply wouldn't BE in RvR. Do you really want the players in your RvR group to be hating every second of it because they'd much rather be PvEing but this is the only way they can get their RAs, keeping a weary eye on the RP meter in RvR with you?

And PvE players shouldn't mind about RvR players levelling their artifacts fast in RvR, since they won't be RvRing themselves and these uber RvR players won't be a factor for them either. Do you really want the person in your PvE group to be hating every second of it because they'd rather be RvRing but this is the only way they can level their arti, keeping a weary eye on the XP meter in PvE with you?


We are all players of the same game. Why feel that people who like to play the game in a different way to you are "wrong" and should be forced to do something they don't enjoy? I don't enjoy RvR...but I don't want to force RvR fans to do PvE if they don't enjoy it. Similarly RvR players shouldn't want to force people into RvR against their will. This is a big game. This town is big enough for the both of us. I'd like to see Mythic add more PvE AND RvR zones to the game, expand the territory for both sides of the game equally.

FORCING players, via whatever mechanism, to do something they dislike is not the way to go. This way, everyone wins. Everyone gets to play the sides of the game they enjoy, in the way they choose, without being herded into RvR or PvE against their will.

 

[Linnet]

It would therefore be best for you, as a player, if you could get your RAs and level your artifacts etc by playing the part of the game you enjoy the most - RvR - and not feel forced to PvE to get artifact XP etc.

I thought you could level your artifacts in RvR now? Mythic _want_ people to RvR as the endgame. They are trying to encourage that. If it isn't what you want, then start marking off the days on your calendar until WoW goes live.

(But yes, in theory it would be nice to have a variety of ways to get realm abilities.)

 

[Thrunge]

RA's from PVE would certainly help those classes that are not FOTM or that usually get left behind when RVR groups get set up....

It would also help the classes where RA's have been used to "balance" them rather than actually fixing them in the first place :touch:

But, it'll never happen lol

 

[Saggy]

Both ML and RA-systems would need a huge changes but my idea would be:

RvR MAs = Realm Ranks
PvE MAs = MLs
RvR RAs = Realm Points
PvE RAs = Quests

RAs/MAs gained by RvR wouldn't work in PvE and the other way around.

 

[Rulke]

So if RvR players dont like PvE, but are still forced to do it (and they are), then PvE dullards should be forced to do RvR to get RAs surely?

 

[Alithiel]

So, how about this: why not have RAs acquirable through high-level PvE a la Gaheris (on co-op servers, frontier keeps are infested with high-level mobs, you have to kill all of these and drop the uber "keep lord" mob to get RPs) on normal servers ? And have ALL artis earn XP through RvR as well.

Aside from the fact that all artifacts do earn XP through RvR (albeit slowly if it's also got a PvE requirement), the issue here is always going to be striking a balance between how quickly players are able to gain rp's through the 2 methods due to the difference in mechanics between PvE and RvR encounters.

A PvE method of achieving rp's is always going to be 'the easy route', as the monsters actions are governed by programmed rules that dictate how they perform and how they respond to their enemies tactics. Even the enhanced AI and abilities of mobs in ToA, which will mezz, heal and zerg when they get the chance, is not a match for a good group of players. Even when the mobs are purple con!

The other issue is then how you integrate the 2 means of achieving rp's onto the same server. By your desire to see a PvE means of gaining rp's, the Gaheris idea would be ruled out by the fact that it takes place in the Frontier keeps - where you would be exposed to the risk of the 'real' RvR you wish to avoid.

 

[Yussef]

The PvE "grind" is needed to an extent. People learn their classes better during this period. Insta level 50's would be :| in RvR. Without any sense of effort, (Yes I'm aware of PL), more serious players could adapt to RvR situations much more easily. I.E re-rolling and trying various combos. Timesinks help control it to an extent also. However, an insta level 50 or a similiar method would allow more casual players to participate. Each method has problems though.

The idea proposed in this thread would not work well imo. You can easily PL a class to 50, then just PvE to get the required solid RA's then head to RvR (after getting the required equipment). Those with time can abuse anything. Then again on the other side of the fence, it does benefit non FOTM classes progression wise.

The initial argument is quite simple, yet that is not how it works. You will have a third category, those who will invest time in the faster option regardless of whether they like it or not. At the current artifact xp rates in RvR, the mainly PvE artifacts with a hint of RvR possibilites. No one in their right minds will try to level those in RvR. Current RvR xp is appaling. Mythic reversed the x8 xp change in 1.70, so it seems they won't implement that.

In short: Multiple methods of doing something can be "abused" imo, changes like the one proposed belong to alternate servers.

 

[Asty]

If you could gain ra's in pve the ones that got time could.. and would do it even if they dont like it. The system could only be good if you could only gain ra's that are only usable in pve.

As for the old and dull pve vs rvr argument.. what would daoc be like without rvr? thats right, just another shitty clone mmorpg with very little players.

 

[Chilly]

Its a nice idea but the RPs from high end PvE would have to be ridiculously low or only very few mobs getting it so as to stop people simply PLing their chars up to RRx, because lets face it half the emain kiddies want RPs for the sake of having RPs. Of coruse there are people who fight in RvR cos its damned fun (and it is if your lucky enough to have made the right guess at rolling a class 2 years ago) and getting RP is just a bonus to them, lettign them fight more interesting battles and improving their chacaters power.

Its a neat idea but i dont think it would work very well really.

 

[chretien]

Hmm, as another mainly PvE character I'd like to see it for purely selfish reasons.

However I don't think it would work on a normal ruleset server. All that would happen is that the 'bar' would increase by another notch. Currently people consider it's necessary to PL a character to 50, farm scrolls, then level their artifacts to 10 before they can take part in RvR. If it was possible to gain RPs through post-50 PvE, then all that would happen is that you'd see a lot of afk level 50 infs/SBs/Rangers stuck to Necros/BDs/animists so they'd be RR5 before they first ported to Emain. RR5 would be seen as the minimum requirement for any character to take part in RvR which would mean that going to the frontier for those of us who mainly enjoy PvE, but aren't allergic to taking the occasional keep or patrolling the frontier for an evening would become even more depressing.

As Yussef says, it would benefit those with a lot of time to dedicate the most (thus widening the gap even further between 24/7 players and those of us with jobs and adult lives) and people like Svart a little. I hate to say it Svart, but I reckon that the number of people who hold the same PvE-only view as yourself is vanishingly small - probably no more than a couple of dozen per server. Most people I suspect fall somewhere between your rabid PvE-er and your rabid RvR-er and will like a bit of each to break the pace as their mood takes them.

edited - punctuation is my friend and I love it very much.

 

[Darzil]

It'd only really work if it's the really hard mobs. People don't powerlevel on Dragons !

Maybe the ones that now give ML experience would be right.

To some extent the game will head in that general direction with realm points for killing Keep Lords. I'm looking forward to finally getting something for all the keep raids !

Darzil

 

[-TDA-Shaki]

RvR is the endgame, hence frontiers.

Yes PvE is nice to get plats, items for salvage and artis, but thats where it ends. Do you plan on doing the diamond circle forever. PvE has its limitations as to let your char evolve into an efficient RvR group member.

Without RvR there would be nothing to do come the big 50.

Maybe youve steamrolled by the alb zerg too much and its put you off a little, stick with it or at least try it for a while. Decent groups help pref roaming and you will have those RA's before you can say ALBS INC!!!!!!

 

[Balbor]

theres a lot of talk about 'why should PvE players be getting RPs (and RAs) from PvE that should be only for RvRers'?. Well how do you think a PvE player feels when he losses his spot in a PvE hunt to some high RR player because they have RAs that will help with the raid. I've already seen Dragon raids were you are required to have Purge to get in, and hibs bringing down Legion in record time by abusing RAs. So if RvRers can gain a huge advantage over PvEers in PvE raids by RvRing, why can't it be the other way around.

Despite what i said, i personally i don't totally agree with RPs for pve encounters. It should be made easyer for people to reach RR5 because currently is a lot harder for some classes.

I'd like to see a kinda of PvE/RvR cross over event on a long timer (7-14 days respawn) were powerful Mobs (maybe traitors of the home realm or one of the frontier factions) start to attack a keep. If nothing is done by anyone they will build up in numbers and take over the keep (but leaving the doors smashed in). If defenders turn up they earn RP as they would for defending a keep (by killing all the mobs). If the keep fall all realms will earn RPs or retaking it etc.

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Im with Svarts idea, for the most part, being a fellow PvE player.

And RvR is not the end-game, frontiers is just a bonus for RvR orientated players,

RvR is the endgame, hence frontiers.

so explain DF, ToA, Si and Catacombes....nuff said. No "plats", no SC armour, therefore you have to get your own scrolls (more PvE) and farm artis better.

Mythic are doing what most MMORPGs dont, providing a balance of both, which is where Svarts idea comes in.

The PL ideas people have, well that could be stopped by the code saying only the mobs killer would gain PvE-RA points. Much the same as in RvR, getting a kill message "XXXXmob was killed by XXXX". OK, this needs a little more thinking about as obviously seer classes have a degree of difficulty actually killing something solo, but it would put more emphasis on solo, and less on PL4tehwin.

As for hartifarts, IMO there should be RvR ML steps, say ML4 could be done by completing certain RvR tasks, like "You must capture Dun Bold during the night - no seige to be used!", or "run naked thru the snows of Odins Gate /yelling KILL MEH at the Wyverns", or at least part of that ML. Theres scope that can benefit all kinds of players.

OFC the ones who will benefit most will be PL classes like SMs and Shammies, my SM has 10 bubs at 50, and I would not like to imagine how many Draks/Svarts/little goblin chaps in modern he has killed..

 

[Chrystina]

The PL ideas people have, well that could be stopped by the code saying only the mobs killer would gain PvE-RA points. Much the same as in RvR, getting a kill message "XXXXmob was killed by XXXX". OK, this needs a little more thinking about as obviously seer classes have a degree of difficulty actually killing something solo, but it would put more emphasis on solo, and less on PL4tehwin.

I like the way City of Heroes prevents PL: if the lvl difference is to high (5 in CoH) the lowest chars won't get any XP ... as simple as that ... end of PL

 

[Revz]

It sounds like a decent idea but as several people have pointed out if it was possible to PL your way to a particular RR lots of people would do it, even if they hated the time it took, just because it was easier than getting RP the normal way. What might be a better idea is to simply make RA and ML have the same effect (the same abilities at the same levels) and then allow RA to only work in the frontiers and ML to only work in home realms. You now have two routes to getting the same abilities depending on how you like to play the game.

 

[Revz]

I like the way City of Heroes prevents PL: if the lvl difference is to high (5 in CoH) the lowest chars won't get any XP ... as simple as that ... end of PL

Apart from being able to sidekick characters which is such a good idea

 

[old.Whoodoo]

I like the way City of Heroes prevents PL: if the lvl difference is to high (5 in CoH) the lowest chars won't get any XP ... as simple as that ... end of PL

Aye, just how DAoC used to be pretty much.

 

[Aoln]

I wouldn't mind aslong as you make it so that players drop artifacts/scrolls/money/uberitems in rvr so i don't need to pve at all.

 

[old.Whoodoo]

You have just killed Pin
Pin drops his Caer Sidi Uberbutter Knife
Pin drops his Dream Sphere
Pin drops 500g

Hehe, well I can dream cant I?

 

[Iceflower]

>As for the old and dull pve vs rvr argument.. what would daoc be like without rvr? thats right, just another shitty clone mmorpg with very little players.

I think thing that puts Doac ahead of EQ is that there is variance in gameplay, ie both rvr and pve, you are not locked into one gameplay style unless you want to. Should also mention that Doac allows you to join at least one realm that dont feel like cookie cutter high fantasy world number umpteen too

Pve players will probably get rps a bit easier with the changes in NF if participating in the seiges which is a bonus for those that find team fortress gameplay rather dull in the same way rvr players find pve dull. Too bad both current gamestyles are quite shallow as is

 

[Elendar]

I wouldn't mind aslong as you make it so that players drop artifacts/scrolls/money/uberitems in rvr so i don't need to pve at all.

exactly, if you take away the need for pvers to rvr to get their ras, those of us that like rvr should be allowed to get all our artis and drops from killing players in rvr

which means far less people on pve raids etc
it wouldn't work

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Before dismissing the idea, think of alternatives, mobs in the frontiers that are MLs, redoing the RvR Dungeon (Dodens) for an ML, that can only be done when all 3 areas have enemies in.....theres a number of ways it could be done.

 

[Svartmetall]

...those of us that like rvr should be allowed to get all our artis and drops from killing players in rvr...

That makes absolutely no sense at all in the gameworld, though.

The Random Alb Guardian drops Eirene's Hauberk!

The Generic Hib Spod drops the Spear Of Kings!

The RR1L0 Kobbie you killed just by looking at it drops the Goddess' Necklace!

...?

Nah.

Attaining RAs through a lot of high-level PvE at least makes sense because in the gameworld you're basically training yourself up more and more by fighting such high-level stuff, so it's logical you get harder and better at it (i.e. get RAs). Similiarly, if you fight enemies and not high-level mobs, you get harder and better at it in the same way.

 

[Saggy]

Attaining RAs through a lot of high-level PvE at least makes sense because in the gameworld you're basically training yourself up more and more by fighting such high-level stuff, so it's logical you get harder and better at it (i.e. get RAs). Similiarly, if you fight enemies and not high-level mobs, you get harder and better at it in the same way.

Yes, but surely the RAs gained by RvR shouldn't work in PvE and the other way around?

 

[Svartmetall]

Yes, but surely the RAs gained by RvR shouldn't work in PvE and the other way around?

Why not? Aug Str is Aug Str, Purge is Purge, MOPain is MOPain etc.

Or would you propose two different lists of RAs, one attainable via RvR and one attainable via PvE..?

 

[Saggy]

Why not? Aug Str is Aug Str, Purge is Purge, MOPain is MOPain etc.

Or would you propose two different lists of RAs, one attainable via RvR and one attainable via PvE..?

Yes, two lists like I mentioned in my first post. You dont get better PvEr by killing other players nor you will get better RvRer by killing mobs. Both RA and MA-systems are fecked up atm, imo.

 

[Elendar]

That makes absolutely no sense at all in the gameworld, though.

The Random Alb Guardian drops Eirene's Hauberk!

The Generic Hib Spod drops the Spear Of Kings!

The RR1L0 Kobbie you killed just by looking at it drops the Goddess' Necklace!

...?

Nah.

Attaining RAs through a lot of high-level PvE at least makes sense because in the gameworld you're basically training yourself up more and more by fighting such high-level stuff, so it's logical you get harder and better at it (i.e. get RAs). Similiarly, if you fight enemies and not high-level mobs, you get harder and better at it in the same way.

the point is not what makes sense in a roleplay fasion, but what actually works in practice

 

[Alithiel]

Or would you propose two different lists of RAs, one attainable via RvR and one attainable via PvE..?

That would be a very bad idea, as it just widens the gulf between the PvE and RvR player base. It also forces casual players to choose between either PvE or RvR, since they won't have the time to devote to achieving a reasonable level in both arenas.

If you seperate high-level PvE and RvR too much, what's the point of them even being on the same server? There needs to be a level of inter-dependency, not only between the two systems (PvE players need RA's to improve their abilities for PvE, RvR players need PvE to get items and abilities for RvR), but also between the PLAYERS of the two systems - and this is what I feel is lacking at the moment.

The current system gives bonuses to damage for holding Relics and keeps, although the latter is restricted to the guild/alliance that is holding the keep. This system, as I understand it, is expanded in New Frontiers to give a wider variety of bonuses.

One suggestion to balance this would be to have a similar system involving PvE encounters, perhaps involving outposts within the realm that are periodically attacked by roaming groups of mobs if the mob population in the area reaches certain levels. After all, the stability of the internal realm would allow those involved in realm combat concentrate on the task at hand without worrying whether their family is in danger from roving bands of the undead!

 

[Ilum]

I like how it works atm.

If it ain't broken dont fix it. (have you ever seen Mythic attempt to fix anything and see how badly it can muck up? hint: buff shears)