question about +shield skills

[zx^]

I just wondered about a template and stomped on the +11 shield i need as a scout. i heard that the +11 shield skills give 5.5 % chance to block.

Then i got the advice to "forget" the 11 shield skills in the template and then go Mob2 (both now and in nf) atm it gives 6% chance to block, but gonna drop to 5% chance to block in NF...

here is my question then do the +11 shield skill give anything to the "chance to hit" with slam?

is this a good way to cap other stuff by compensating with mob2?

givf comments

mob2>+11shield skills and give hell alot of Utility room in the SC calculator

 

[Bracken]

According to the Herald Grab Bag the higher your shield skill the higher your chance to land slam. By how much I don't know. I would guess that once you get over 50 total shield skill it's diminishing returns, so you'll hardly notice a difference at 50 or 61 total. Don't quote me on that though

 

[zx^]

hehe i wont but nice with a reply hehe

if anyone can find it then givf Url i seem to miss it on Grab bags /herald

 

[Tootz]

There is no "to hit bonus" with shield styles, thats why they miss so much. As has been said, Mythic claim that the higher your shield skill, the more likely you are to land your shield styles - whether you believe that though, is up to you

 

[zx^]

must say even with 410 dex,42shield+17 i still had a hard time hitting Evade9 assasins.. and thats quiet the only thing i fight.

do mythic got a mail i can send to so i can get the Correct answer and which calculation is used to calculate the + chance to hit

"when slam hits it gets puged wonder why i still have it hehe"

 

[Bracken]

My theory (haven't tested it though ) is that while +shield improves your basic chance to land slam, dex and ws will impact on whether you get through block/parry/evade. Like I say, haven't tested it personally but I'm 99% sure that when my dex and ws are higher slam gets through far more often. Would be useful if anyone has logs of any tests though

 

[Flimgoblin]

higher shield = more damage from slam

someone on VN did a test showing that the level 3 shield style got blocked less when their main weapon skill was higher - and had nowt to do with the shield skill.

However that was a while ago so it's worth repeating.

 

[zx^]

hmm might need an inf to help me on some testing then

 

[Claudius]

Im fairly sure shield works like this:

Shield skill only helps on shield damage and block rate. The size of the shield helps on how many attacks against you that you can block. The size of the shield doesnt matter when guarding someone.

If you want to land slam, you need weapnskill. So you should get the +11 on your 1h weapon that you use. There are some theories that its the highest weaponskill you have on your character that it uses, meaning that in your case it uses longbow weaponskill for slams, but I dont think so.

 

[Flimgoblin]

if it's going to be based on any weaponskill it'll be on the one you're wielding whilst using the shield

 

[Bracken]

Im fairly sure shield works like this:

Shield skill only helps on shield damage and block rate. The size of the shield helps on how many attacks against you that you can block. The size of the shield doesnt matter when guarding someone.

If you want to land slam, you need weapnskill. So you should get the +11 on your 1h weapon that you use. There are some theories that its the highest weaponskill you have on your character that it uses, meaning that in your case it uses longbow weaponskill for slams, but I dont think so.

Herald Grab Bag stated only shield skill determines chance for slam to hit. My interpretation of that based on experience is that that is separate to block/parry/evade calculations. They are determined separately by dex and (when shield is equipped) 1H ws. So higher dex/ws gets you passed block/parry/evade, but the base chance for slam to hit is governed by shield skill. Whether that is absolutely true or not I can't be sure as I havent done or seen any tests, but it's how I interpret the information given on the herald. If I get a chance I'll try get a link to when it was posted.


Edit: Ok found this quote from the Herald back in April...
"Q: When using a shield related combat style (Slam, Brutalize, etc), does the game use your current slash/thrust/crush weapon skill as its base (as shown on your character info screen) OR is there a 'hidden' Shield weapon skill not shown on your character info screen (based on STR? & Shield Spec) that it uses instead?

A: It uses your shield skill - which is based on both your specialization level and dexterity."

 

[Khartoum]

Just as Claudius say, offensive shield styles actually rely on your WS and not on your shield spec. If you as scout have, say, 18 melee using thrust, your WS will land somewhere in the 1200-1300 region, and this is not much to compete with really. Try a higher melee spec to raise your WS and you will notice how much easier it is to land an offensive attack, be it with your weapon or your shield.
In my opinion it's always important to cap +11 bonus on shield, though, for the defensive purpose. If you are using crafted weapon and shield in your template +6 and +5 bonus of each skill on each item will solve your melee/shield bonus cap.

I used to be 29 thrust/42 shield, having a well higher WS than I do now with 18 thrust, and landing slam was so much easier back then - when my WS value was that much higher.

Feel free to use Gorre for your testing purposes..


@ Bracken

Note that your total shield spec value does not affect your WS in any way what so ever. Perhaps the Herald statement was poorly put, but your WS really does affect your ability in offensive actions, no matter your chosen item of performance. Ask any low-WS slam-scout out there, they know how problematic it is to land the slam compared to the shield-fighters who have higher WS.

 

[Bracken]

@ Bracken

Note that your total shield spec value does not affect your WS in any way what so ever. Perhaps the Herald statement was poorly put, but your WS really does affect your ability in offensive actions, no matter your chosen item of performance. Ask any low-WS slam-scout out there, they know how problematic it is to land the slam compared to the shield-fighters who have higher WS.

Herald is very specific (not that it proves anything in itself). It says base hit for shield styles is determined by shield skill. That ain't weaponskill. Often people with low ws confuse getting blocked/parried/evaded more as meaning they have "missed", when in fact the base hit is determined after the block/parry/evade test. So they get blocked/parried/evaded more due to lower ws, but the base hit could still be determined by shield skill. I'd like to see some tests done and logged before I believe that Herald is wrong.

 

[Tootz]

Have we no student bums who can test this out for us all on Gorre?

 

[Khartoum]

I did test this on gorre to verify my theory, using a scout with 900 WS from 1 slash skill and shield 50, slamming another scout from behind to avoid defensive actions. The 50 shield spec scout with 900 WS had issues just hitting the other scout, even from behind, whereas the thrust 50/shield 50 scout with very high WS had no problems what so ever even getting through the low-WS scouts defensive actions from front.

I will do it all over again when I can be bothered, and next time I will log the results for your enjoyment

 

[Kagato]

If im not mistake the base chance to parry/block (and probably evade if you can) is 5% and every point you spec in parry/block is equal to .5%. Regarding chance to land slam or any style though who knows, the grab bag is never that reliable so I always take it with a pinch of salt and do the best I can regardless, Ideally you'd want +11 and mob2 though simply for the extra blocking and guarding, if it helps with styles its a bonus.

 

[zx^]

well as i said..

I wont go MOB2 if i got +11 shield in my template

if i dont got +11 in template then i would go MOB2


either way i would never had more than the 5-6% more chance of block rate

 

[Tootz]

I did test this on gorre to verify my theory, using a scout with 900 WS from 1 slash skill and shield 50, slamming another scout from behind to avoid defensive actions. The 50 shield spec scout with 900 WS had issues just hitting the other scout, even from behind, whereas the thrust 50/shield 50 scout with very high WS had no problems what so ever even getting through the low-WS scouts defensive actions from front.

I will do it all over again when I can be bothered, and next time I will log the results for your enjoyment

Sounds right to me. I guess shield is a bit like 2hand, duel wield, etc, in that speccing higher gives you better styles, and higher damage, but when it comes down to actually hitting your opponent, weaponskill is the most important factor.

 

[Bracken]

I will do it all over again when I can be bothered, and next time I will log the results for your enjoyment

Good man

 

[Flimgoblin]

from the back there shouldn't be a difference in hit rate

Sucks that it's based on main weapon skill though - tis silly.

 

[zx^]

well are there any Email i can write to to get a 100% True answer ? instead of "i think etc"
do mythic got that? or are we supporsed to figure it out our selfs?

 

[Glacius]

hm..

I had till now 2 shield users.. arms and reaver..got with arms 2000 wpns skill with reaver alot lower ..1600 or so.
Dmg in a slam is based indeed on shield spec ..and the type of shield ..small med large < u got som weapon modifiers there.. spd etc.>
Now about the thing with landing slam .. if u talk about hiting a caster wich is a target that has no chance to evade/parry/block u wpns skill duno if has anythin to do with it.. been nights when i ddint missed once all night in assist train with reaver etc..On the other hand .. if u fight VS an stealther with high evade skill ,or a 50shield ,26pary tank , and any other classes whom defence is based on these type o factors..well i think slam works like any attack ..i mean its ur hit VS their defence.. i fought 2hers and i get slam easy on them from the 1st and rarely from 2nd <maybe they parry > ..but against friars for example or assasins..rarely from the 1st ..more often from the 3rd try and so on ..about the shield tanks.. i dont even bother. Why a full slash arms that has a higher wep skill 2000 for example ...should land slam easier then a hibrid class..like reaver/pala etc ..makes no sence . Well this is how i see it .

 

[zx^]

quote from this site http://www.frontiernet.net/~randel/Protellect-Spec-Guide.htm#_Toc86132709


(#1) Paladin with (29+14 Slash) + (50+14 Shield) using spec 3 shield style 'Numb'
(#2) Paladin with (29+14 Slash) + (03+14 Shield) using spec 3 shield style 'Numb'
(#3) Paladin with (50+14 Slash) + (03+14 Shield) using spec 3 shield style 'Numb'
(#4) Paladin with (12+14 Slash) + (50+14 Shield) using spec 3 shield style 'Numb'
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
TEST #1 - Paladin with (29+14 Slash) + (50+14 Shield) using spec 3 shield style 'Numb'

49.44% Successful Overall Hit Rate on Reaver
41.66% Attacks Evaded/Parried by Reaver
08.88% Attacks Missed/Fumbled against Reaver

Notes: This is the standard benchmark test that establishes where the general successful hit ratio is with 29+14 Slash & 50+14 Shield spec on this particular Reaver test subject....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
TEST #2 - Paladin with (29+14 Slash) + (03+14 Shield) using spec 3 shield style 'Numb'

49.12% Successful Overall Hit Rate on Reaver
42.27% Attacks Evaded/Parried by Reaver
08.60% Attacks Missed/Fumbled against Reaver

Notes: Notice how when going from a 50+14 shield spec to rock bottom 03+14 shield spec, there is almost no change in the Reavers successful evade/parry ratio...despite what should be a good 400-500 drop in shield 'weaponskill' for the Paladin...if indeed it is based on her shield spec as Mythic has claimed in past grab bags.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
TEST #3 - Paladin with (50+14 Slash) + (03+14 Shield) using spec 3 shield style 'Numb'

53.40% Successful Overall Hit Rate on Reaver
36.69% Attacks Evaded/Parried by Reaver
09.35% Attacks Missed/Fumbled against Reaver

Notes: Notice how when going from a 29+14 slash spec to a 50+14 slash spec, while shield stays at rock bottom 03+14 spec from previous test, the Reaver suddenly takes a 6.58% drop in her evade/parry rate against the shield styles...just where it probably would be if shield weaponskill suddenly increased 200-250. The increased slash spec here suddenly increased the successful hit ratio on shield styles.... hmmm.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
TEST #4 - Paladin with (12+14 Slash) + (50+14 Shield) using spec 3 shield style 'Numb'

47.59% Successful Overall Hit Rate on Reaver
44.38% Attacks Evaded/Parried by Reaver
08.02% Attacks Missed/Fumbled against Reaver

Notes: Notice how when we flip-flop the specs & take Slash rock bottom & shield back up to max spec, the results of the last test reverse themselves & the Reaver evades/parries 7.69% more shield styles...when it should be the opposite way around if shield 'weaponskill' is based on shield spec.



quote end.


u can read rest at the homepage, there is some interesting infomation there tbh.