QQ mincers in Frontiers

knighthood

Fledgling Freddie
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Feb 3, 2004
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just looked at the so far new realm abilities on the main site..
wheres the love for my gimpstrel :(
oh yay a pet mezz :p and er...
hope this changes
just notice pallys get determination now :p
im a hybird too , givf det :p
mind u we do have SoS still
 

Fafnir

Resident Freddy
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Dec 22, 2003
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knighthood said:
just looked at the so far new realm abilities on the main site..
wheres the love for my gimpstrel :(
oh yay a pet mezz :p and er...
hope this changes
just notice pallys get determination now :p
im a hybird too , givf det :p
mind u we do have SoS still
Go play a thane before you whine about gimps :p
 

Jaem-

Can't get enough of FH
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Jan 20, 2004
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knighthood said:
just looked at the so far new realm abilities on the main site..
wheres the love for my gimpstrel :(
oh yay a pet mezz :p and er...
hope this changes
just notice pallys get determination now :p
im a hybird too , givf det :p
mind u we do have SoS still

I thought mezzing aload of SM and Chanter pets would be pretty cool tho, but mincers are rogues I thought, not hybrids? ;o

Fafnir said:
Go play a thane before you whine about gimps

Went RvRing in Emain for the 1st time in like 3 months last night(had loads of fun for a change ;O ), Saw loads of thanes out and about, maybe midgard is d00m'd with a new FOTM gimp? ;P
 

Lejemorder

Fledgling Freddie
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891
knighthood said:
just looked at the so far new realm abilities on the main site..
wheres the love for my gimpstrel :(
oh yay a pet mezz :p and er...
hope this changes
just notice pallys get determination now :p
im a hybird too , givf det :p
mind u we do have SoS still

only there is a big nerf for mincers r u can no longer get AP.
and dont whine over det, friars dont even get it and they dever it just as much as wardens (both hybrud healer/fighter).

and am to mincer seems like a huge boots (okay it dont affect the caster, but that only affect solo mincers and skalds)
u get fury of the gods, up to 30 dps extra, means u unstyles dmg will increase near 200% o_O.
but i think many mincers fell they get nerfed coz they no longer can get AP.

edit: about friars not getting det, i think mythic forgot em coz they cant get AoM or IP either.
 

Kallisti

Fledgling Freddie
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Note: AM will not heal the caster, so Minstrels have lost IP, Dodger, AP, Mastery of Blocking and get a heal over time spell that doesn't heal them!

I for one will NOT be spending RA points I've worked damn hard for on an RA that I get no benefit from. I've already been altruistic enough to level my Croc Tears ring to level 10 to get an ability that has no use to me directly but helps my realm.

This RA design still has a lot of work to be done on it before its anywhere near balanced or workable.
 

Morchaoron

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AP has always been a shit ability i agree, it should have been a robed caster only thing (on some casters, like cabalist, runemaster, mentalist, sorc)

but i dont understand why they remove ip, but oh wait...

*MYTHIC LOGIC MODE ENABLED*

minstrels can stealth... minstrels are strong stealthers.... assassins are strong stealthers.... assassins cant have ip.... minstrels should not have ip either then because they are strong stealthers too...... most minstrels arent stealtherspecced <---(WOOPS thats not part of the primitive mythic logic, goes to far..)
 

Celery

Loyal Freddie
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Dec 24, 2003
Messages
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The RA list as it stands stinks for Mincers, looks like I may have to dig the ole' Sorc out if it goes live like this . . .
 

Jonaldo

Can't get enough of FH
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Minstrel already overpowered as it is, they don't need any love :p
 

Marczje

Fledgling Freddie
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Lol whine, they are still a good class, even after RA nerf.
 

Lejemorder

Fledgling Freddie
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891
well mincer r atleast not left alone w/o IP or det. both friars and skalds dont get it too (and ip is 1 the RAs there was worth taking as friar).
 

twuth

Fledgling Freddie
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Minstrel is a dead clas after these changes, who needs mach 5 with endless sprint + mach 3 anyway. Interrupt does so little in the current assist train rvr game.

Can't think of a single reason a group would take a minstrel after frontiers, currently we are hanging on by a thread called sos.

Also my personal hate is the forcing to spec 50/30/30, and the newer minstrels, who have autotrain getting the chance for decent sepcs such as 44/39/30. I've never liked cookie cutter on a class I think differentation helps!
 

Lejemorder

Fledgling Freddie
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twuth said:
Minstrel is a dead clas after these changes, who needs mach 5 with endless sprint + mach 3 anyway. Interrupt does so little in the current assist train rvr game.

Can't think of a single reason a group would take a minstrel after frontiers, currently we are hanging on by a thread called sos.

Also my personal hate is the forcing to spec 50/30/30, and the newer minstrels, who have autotrain getting the chance for decent sepcs such as 44/39/30. I've never liked cookie cutter on a class I think differentation helps!

i can give u several good reason to take a mincer in a grp:
1: speed5
2: sos
3: am
4: fury of the gods
5: ablative
6: demezz
7: interrupt with pet (good mincer know how to twist betwen charm and speed)

that 7 very good reasons for me to take mincers in grp.
i think the alb grp will be something like:
2 clerics.
1 sorc
1 mincer
1 pala
1 arms
2 ice wizzies

as u can c i dont got a theur in that grp, but ofc he could change with mincer :D
 

Falcon

Fledgling Freddie
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Kallisti said:
This RA design still has a lot of work to be done on it before its anywhere near balanced or workable.
This is balanced. Please don't tarnish your appearance as a so far good minstrel TL by claiming Minstrels deserve IP/AP again. AM makes Minstrels a group class not a solo class, minstrels TOTALLY screw the stealth game right now by adding a massive amount of utility to stealth groups, if they're no longer so feasible in stealth groups yet more feasible in gank groups - which the RA review makes them then good, that's how it should be. Just a shame them losing stealth aint gonna happen too though.
 

Fedaykin

Fledgling Freddie
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skalds >>>>>>>>>>> minstrels in frontiers

ofc minstrels will always be welcome in groups due to speed 5 and this will never change

and group minstrels dont really need IP or AP anyway, its the solo minstrels who will feel this nerf. Not being a soloing minstrel i don't care very much, the SoS nerf is the one which will hurt.

So essentially most minstrels will have to group to do well (except Alpha and co who are rr10) which is great for albion as more good grouping minstrels = better groups.

now the question remains - why have stealth on a group character?

its obvious it will never be removed and it is a redundant line when concerned with 8v8, keep takes will be its only implementation - a thing which it seems mythic is pushing us towards with NF.

goign back to the start though, what definative advantage does a minstrel have over a skald?

and before you mids say:

AOE MEZZ, ABLATIVE, PETS etc

think about the uses in 8v8 combat and you will see they look good on paper but in reality all have little effect on the outcome on battles.

However:

Minstrels will still be a viable class and we should feel for the Friar community at this time, who have been sent up shit creek without a paddle.
 

old.windforce

Part of the furniture
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Lejemorder said:
i can give u several good reason to take a mincer in a grp:
1: speed5
2: sos
3: am
4: fury of the gods
5: ablative
6: demezz
7: interrupt with pet (good mincer know how to twist betwen charm and speed)

that 7 very good reasons for me to take mincers in grp.
i think the alb grp will be something like:
2 clerics.
1 sorc
1 mincer
1 pala
1 arms
2 ice wizzies

as u can c i dont got a theur in that grp, but ofc he could change with mincer :D

i can see you never played a minstrel
 

Lian

Fledgling Freddie
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BTW AM does heal the caster as well, which is why Skalds and Mincers have had IP taken away from them. It's Vehement Renewal that doesn't heal the caster. Skalds and Mincers don't get Det supposedly because they have insta CC. No idea why friars don't get IP or Det, I am assuming it's an oversight, though Shammy's get neither either.
 

Lian

Fledgling Freddie
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Never mnid that.. jsut read that it doesn't.. it used to anyway...
 

CstasY

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Lejemorder said:
i think the alb grp will be something like:
2 clerics.
1 sorc
1 mincer
1 pala
1 arms
2 ice wizzies

Haha. Good luck with that setup against your average Debuff Assist Group etc.

Melee groups may still work in Frontiers, but:

1 Spirit Cab
1 Mind Sorc
1 Body Sorc
1 Body Sorc/Body Cab
1 Paladin
1 Minstrel
1 Cleric
1 Cleric

Will be the Opted Group setup.
 

Kallisti

Fledgling Freddie
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Falcon said:
This is balanced. Please don't tarnish your appearance as a so far good minstrel TL by claiming Minstrels deserve IP/AP again. AM makes Minstrels a group class not a solo class, minstrels TOTALLY screw the stealth game right now by adding a massive amount of utility to stealth groups, if they're no longer so feasible in stealth groups yet more feasible in gank groups - which the RA review makes them then good, that's how it should be. Just a shame them losing stealth aint gonna happen too though.


AM doens't heal the caster.
AP is a dead RA
There is no justifiable reason why Minstrels shoudln't have IP - scouts get access to it.
However Friars shoudl also get it since Wardens do...
Mastery of blocking should go back to all shield using classes not just classes that can spec shield...

I'm not just talking about Minstrels when I talk about a badly balanaced RA system, I look beyond my own class because I believe in a balanced overall approach - and don't start with that stealher war balance crap, I've had enough of that on the VN boards and you can see my feelings about that on the VN boards.
 

Melachi

Fledgling Freddie
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Kallisti said:
AM doens't heal the caster.
AP is a dead RA
There is no justifiable reason why Minstrels shoudln't have IP - scouts get access to it.
However Friars shoudl also get it since Wardens do...
Mastery of blocking should go back to all shield using classes not just classes that can spec shield...

I'm not just talking about Minstrels when I talk about a badly balanaced RA system, I look beyond my own class because I believe in a balanced overall approach - and don't start with that stealher war balance crap, I've had enough of that on the VN boards and you can see my feelings about that on the VN boards.

You say you dont want to balance the minstrel around the stealther war, fair enough makes sense as I doubt its how Mythic wanted Mincers to be played. But to balance them around a Solo char is stupid then also, Mythic have been giving Minstrels group abilities over several patches for a while now, its obvious Mythic has a one tracked mind that is to make the Minstrel a full group char, with stealth just so he can climb into keeps really. IP is a waste for a minstrel anyway, unless your high realm rank, or stealthgroup or solo often. AM however is rediculous ability for a Stealth class to have it, sorry but in my opinion no class with stealth should have ever gotten CC or any form of healing.

Minstrels rr5 ability is crap I do agree, but dont come here and say your class will be underpowered or underperform if these ra changes go live as is. Your class has/is been very overpowered for a long while, any class that can get away by stealthing, by speed, by CC'ing, by RA's(SoS), your class has so many get away buttons its rediculous.
 

Falcon

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Messages
89
Kallisti said:
AM doens't heal the caster.
AP is a dead RA
There is no justifiable reason why Minstrels shoudln't have IP - scouts get access to it.
However Friars shoudl also get it since Wardens do...
Mastery of blocking should go back to all shield using classes not just classes that can spec shield...

I'm not just talking about Minstrels when I talk about a badly balanaced RA system, I look beyond my own class because I believe in a balanced overall approach - and don't start with that stealher war balance crap, I've had enough of that on the VN boards and you can see my feelings about that on the VN boards.
That's somewhat of a contradiction, how can you say you look for overall balance then totally disregard that stealth game? If you can't accept the stealth war issues and realise Minstrels horrifically unbalance this for thousands of players you're not doing a very good job as a TL.

Your TL report seemed quite fair and okay, but seeing your posts now, you just seem to be another TL who's in the job to make the class how THEY want, not how it should be for overall game balance. Yes it's hard for minstrels to accept that they now need to be part of a group roll and can't be the godlike soloers that have no reason to lose ever (SoS, Stun, Mezz means even if you can't lose you never have to win, IP, AP means you never really have to lose anyway) that they are now.

Down with selfish TLs imo, too many of them contributed to screwing the game in the past, be horrible if they screw it in the future too.
 

chretien

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Falcon said:
That's somewhat of a contradiction, how can you say you look for overall balance then totally disregard that stealth game? If you can't accept the stealth war issues and realise Minstrels horrifically unbalance this for thousands of players you're not doing a very good job as a TL.
But the "stealthwar" is nothing more than a diversion. Why do a subset of classes need to be balanced above and beyond normal realm balance? Just because some players choose to play a massively multiplayer game solo, doesn't mean that the developers have to (or should) balance the game specifically for them. The game is designed to be balanced around groups and zergs, if you want to play outside that framework then you have to accept that things won't be optimally balanced, because if you're reducing it to 1v1 then unless any class has an exactly 50% chance to kill any other class it never will be.
 

Falcon

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chretien said:
But the "stealthwar" is nothing more than a diversion. Why do a subset of classes need to be balanced above and beyond normal realm balance? Just because some players choose to play a massively multiplayer game solo, doesn't mean that the developers have to (or should) balance the game specifically for them. The game is designed to be balanced around groups and zergs, if you want to play outside that framework then you have to accept that things won't be optimally balanced, because if you're reducing it to 1v1 then unless any class has an exactly 50% chance to kill any other class it never will be.
Stealth and solo combat are one and the same, solo is no less of an option than fgs and zergs. Mythics always shown a bias towards zerg warfare admittedly, but in that scenario then we must exclude fg warfare as well, which is also very popular. Not also that Mythic recently told us that stealthers will not get any groupability option, this condemns them to solo RvR and hence solo RvR MUST be balanced too - at least for the class that CAN, or rather now have no choice but solo (due to Mythics latest stance on stealthers) or group up with like classes.

You can't just discount the playstyle of thousands, probably even in the tens of thousands of players as most people have at least one stealther. In fact, it's almost at the point if it isn't already at the point where stealthers are the majority playstyle.
 

Morchaoron

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Falcon said:
. Yes it's hard for minstrels to accept that they now need to be part of a group roll and can't be the godlike soloers that have no reason to lose ever (SoS, Stun, Mezz means even if you can't lose you never have to win, IP, AP means you never really have to lose anyway) that they are now.

hehe what a complete load of shit...

good luck with your stun and mez when you get a assist train on you... IP has saved my ass over a 100 times vs that and you need it just like every other tank does, it is the ability which gives you a 'second chance' when you get assisted by either tanks or debuffnukers (and thats what mythics been whining about some time ago right? to have longer fights)

how to balance it for the overall game? the only way to do it is simply remove the minstrel from the stealthwars, it simply doesnt fit in there, the mids and hibs have nothing like it, the alternative would be to make stealth lets say 40% less effective, so people will have to spec it ridiculously high so they will miss out loads of instrument skill...

minstrel is a core class for a group with sos and speed, and in a group setup they are nowhere near overpowered, sure some people bitch about ablative/stun/pet/mez, but it anyone who has played a minstrel knows that it only sounds nice in theory...

dont nerf the minstrel because its 'too good in stealthwars', just nerf the stealth itself then, its still a core class...
 

klavrynd

Fledgling Freddie
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Dec 22, 2003
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336
didnt read this blather but qq'ing about not getting more love for a change is zzz
 

Falcon

Fledgling Freddie
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Morchaoron said:
hehe what a complete load of shit...

good luck with your stun and mez when you get a assist train on you... IP has saved my ass over a 100 times vs that and you need it just like every other tank does, it is the ability which gives you a 'second chance' when you get assisted by either tanks or debuffnukers (and thats what mythics been whining about some time ago right? to have longer fights)

how to balance it for the overall game? the only way to do it is simply remove the minstrel from the stealthwars, it simply doesnt fit in there, the mids and hibs have nothing like it, the alternative would be to make stealth lets say 40% less effective, so people will have to spec it ridiculously high so they will miss out loads of instrument skill...

minstrel is a core class for a group with sos and speed, and in a group setup they are nowhere near overpowered, sure some people bitch about ablative/stun/pet/mez, but it anyone who has played a minstrel knows that it only sounds nice in theory...

dont nerf the minstrel because its 'too good in stealthwars', just nerf the stealth itself then, its still a core class...
If you have an assist train on your you're most likely not soloing unless you're trying to solo the assist train. I assume you misread what you quoted? as you've essentially agreed with what I'm saying, remove minstrels from the stealth wars. Mythic wont remove the spec line or even nerf it it seems so the only other way to do it is remove IP/AP from them which stops them soloing so effectively, it makes them more dependant on groups to survive, which is, exactly how it should be for the minstrel.
 

enigma

Fledgling Freddie
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Kallisti said:
There is no justifiable reason why Minstrels shoudln't have IP - scouts get access to it.

I'm not arguing minstrels and IP, my opinion is that they could have kept it. If something have to go it should be AP instead, but not both. Though I strongly disagree with your reasoning and it being scouts. Scouts have the same melee as a minstrel. When it comes to defense, the speccable shield's utility is hardly outdoing ablative, chain armour and a pet.
 

Morchaoron

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when i mentioned they should have IP i was talking about when he is GROUPING

its a bloody alb characther, usually they have 2 healers while the other realms have more, he is group dependent enough already with no det and rogue-like hitpoints, and now they are gonna remove ip aswell??
nerf stealth if thats the problem, not the IP, now we have a core-class which has been redisgned to be 'balanced' in the stealth wars, like the minstrels who play DECENT (group) rvr will care...

i dont care much myself since i dont play anymore, but i see this just as another fuckup, but oh well they will never learn...
 

knighthood

Fledgling Freddie
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Morchaoron said:
when i mentioned they should have IP i was talking about when he is GROUPING

its a bloody alb characther, usually they have 2 healers while the other realms have more, he is group dependent enough already with no det and rogue-like hitpoints, and now they are gonna remove ip aswell??
nerf stealth if thats the problem, not the IP, now we have a core-class which has been redisgned to be 'balanced' in the stealth wars, like the minstrels who play DECENT (group) rvr will care...

i dont care much myself since i dont play anymore, but i see this just as another fuckup, but oh well they will never learn...

i agree with this guy, though, losing ip isnt such an issue for me cos i like grouping <if i wanna solo id go to the mid/hib frontier and gank lowbies mwahhahaa> its the pure fact of what i read they have planned for us in frontiers --SO FAR-- absolutely sucks, why cant EVERY class have access to DET, i mean hell even casters, being mezzed is no fun and never has been for any class. Remove mezzes or shorten them and remove det :p
 

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