Help Promotion retracted.

[old.user4556]

All,

I don't want to reveal anything about who I work for (some know), so I'd prefer that to not come up in this thread.

I was verbally told about 10 days ago by my boss' boss (so, head of my area) in a 1 to 1 session that I was slotted into a new job family which was an effective promotion. They hoped that I would accept the offer, and I did - I was absolutely chuffed. Later the same day, we learned of large numbers of jobs cuts within my overall function, but that my promotion still stood.

As a result of the job cuts and restructures, I needed to re-apply for my own job effectively and the "application site" was tailored to which jobs you could apply for which were all at my new level thus confirming / concreting that my promotion had taken affect.

Now, it seems that they've changed their mind (I was officially told 'we've made a mistake, you shouldn't have been told by so-and-so') and now I am no longer promoted even though I had a) been verbally offered the position by a senior manager and b) I've gone through the job profiling at the new level (all the forms have been submitted and signed off 1 week early as I am on holiday this week).

Needless to say, I am absolutely livid and fucked off to the highest and unmeasurable level. Firstly, they retracted my promotion and now i've probably fucked up my chances of securing my role because i've applied for jobs above my official grade.

I really need some advice, currently still in a state of disbelief.

 

[Ch3tan]

Talk to your HR, and get some free legal advise from CAB as a starting point.

I'd say you'd have them over a barrel if they tried to make you redundant because of their "admin" error.

 

[old.Tohtori]

At worst, you should have your old job intact ofcourse.

About promotion retractions, those happen, but nothing is set to stone before A: a letter of resignation is done or B: a new job contract is done.

Otherwise they need(atleast in these parts) to go through the official channels.

 

[rynnor]

Hmm- thats a really tricky one. First you should assume it really is a genuine mistake and take a rage dump because its not going to be helpful to get you out of this (easier said than done I realise).

Talk to HR so that you get considered for your own grade jobs and hopefully you'll be ok.

As a backup write down everything thats happened so far with whatever evidence (e-mails, meetings requests etc. etc.) you have and keep it safe - with any luck you'll never need it.

Good luck to you - I hope things work out ok.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Do companies around there actually do underhanded things like that? Ask to apply for a promotion, then drop both jobs?

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Being verbal, I think you have very little chance Big G. As suggested, its worth getting proper advice rather than FH advice. You can't share details here and even with the best intent, we can only give generalised advice and moral support.

Do companies around there actually do underhanded things like that? Ask to apply for a promotion, then drop both jobs?

Don't even need to do that. Change the job title, alter the role slightly, then make everyone in the current role redundant. Make everyone apply for the new roles in the restructured department. Just accept applications for the new 'role' from people they like. Doesn't even need to be based on merit.

They need to make sure that any previous performance meters are not a recruiting factor in the revisted role(s) but this combo will effectively get rid of anyone you want.

Perfectly legal, nothing you can do about it so long as they don't trip up.

 

[Chilly]

Did you sign a new contract?

 

[Vasconcelos]

Did you sign a new contract?

Dunno in UK, but verbal agreements/contracts are also binding around here (guess as long as you can prove it)

 

[Raven]

 

[Raven]

Dunno in UK, but verbal agreements/contracts are also binding around here (guess as long as you can prove it)

The reason you should always always always get anything from "them up high" in writing. We are generally just mushrooms.

As said, you first stop should be HR and the CAB and probably ACAS.

 

[MYstIC G]

Did you sign a new contract?

This.

 

[Scouse]

A verbal contract is binding in the UK afaik, and if it came down to it people admit their mistakes rather than commit perjury.

I'd ask someone other than HR (HR's loyalty is to the company first and foremost) so yep, outside agencies are the ones to talk to.



Edit: If you're losing your job anyway and are on the verge of redundancy, legal action isn't the "regrettable" recourse it would be if you still needed to work there....

 

[MYstIC G]

A verbal contract is binding in the UK afaik

I'm sure you're correct but it's very easy to go "no that's not what was agreed". Having had another 20 seconds to think about it. Do you have an employee legal advice line Big G? If so, give them a call and ask for their guidance.

 

[Wij]

Do companies around there actually do underhanded things like that? Ask to apply for a promotion, then drop both jobs?

I would suspect this is more due to incompetence and/or not caring on behalf of the company rather than underhandedness.

 

[Chilly]

Prety sure verbal contracts are NOT binding in the UK. If you didnt sign, it didnt happen.

Qoth the internet:

"Pics, good sir, or it didn't happen"

 

[Gumbo]

With nothing in writing, you're certainly screwed re the promotion. I can't comment on the reorganisation, but unless it's all organised with no human input from your current bosses, I can't imagine it will affect your chances greatly that you did the wrong profiling thing. Just one question re where you work if you don't want to reveal it in public.

Is it public or private sector and are you in any union? Ok that's 2 questions.

Re getting pissed off. If you do end up getting made redundant, you might get some gardening leave and then a nice fat cheque on time in a week or so. If you want to pursue some wrongful dismissal, constructive dismissal type of thing, there's a good chance it will take over a year and give you a far far far smaller payout than you think you might get. Depending on the industry you are in, it could well make you practically unemployable too.

At the moment, I can understand why you're angry, having had the rug pulled out from under you, and 'hurt feelings' believe it or not can be a factor in Tribunals, but I can't see any case at the moment.

Mind you, you're a jock, and employment law is probably even odder up there than here. At least you'd be a shoe in for disability discrimination if you sued down here, the tribunal panel would just have to hear your accent

 

[old.user4556]

Didn't sign a new contract, I knew that would be an issue but wanted some input.

It's the private sector.

One of my best mates is an employment lawyer with an excellent track record, I'm going to give him a phone around the "verbal" v's "non verbal" and let you all know.

 

[Jupitus]

If you have been under the impression, as they seem to admit, that you felt you had reached the higher level of employment and as a result have not had the opportunity to correctly apply for roles at the lower level then I would look at this under constructive dismissal possibly.... your route to continued employment has effectively been blocked through their admitted screw up.

Talk to HR and ask them whether it is now too late to apply for roles at the lower grade. If so, then I think you might have a case. If not, then apply and take your chances.

Certainly a nasty one, but I suspect not having a signed contract for the new role might exclude claiming any redundancy at that level or rights for employment at the higher level in an alternate role, but it may well NOT impact your ability to claim for constructive.

Certainly have a good chat with your lawyer pal too, and good luck mate

 

[Gumbo]

Yup, makes sense to have a chat to your mate. At the moment, it really doesn't seem, from the outside, that anything too big a deal has happened. The problems start if you lose your existing job because they made you apply for the wrong one. I would imagine until that happens, the advice will be to sit tight.

If the company is going through a big restructure, and you want to keep working there in the medium to long term, now is probably not the time to be rocking the boat. I don't know the industry that you're in, but that advice will be far more pertinent to some areas where at the moment, any employment is better than none at all.

 

[TdC]

harsh Big G, that is a bad cock up if ever I've seen one. if your company is playing dumb, I'd say hit them for all they are worth, seriously consider if you would wish to continue to work there given the obvious failure of ethics there, and have a good long chat with your lawmonger friend.

fwiw, I am in a similar boat. not as morally questionable, but close.

 

[Gumbo]

That's why your lawyer friend can help. Don't think, because you've seen the odd tribunal related headline, that you're in line for £30k and an apology in a national paper for what is, on the face of it, a bit of an administration cock up.

A more likely outcome, should it go that way, is a couple of grand as a nuisance payment to make you go away. Of course, you'll probably have been using a no win no fee solicitor, so a nuisance payment counts as a win. Then it's, we won for you, so here's our bill for most of the payout. Meanwhile you've lost a year of your life, and your reputation as a good person to employ.

I've been involved in three tribunals over the last 5 years, and all of the complainants were led to believe, by shady legal advice, that they had sound cases and were in line for big payouts. The largest was claiming £70k plus. The first was settled for less than a grand. One was withdrawn before it even got close to court and the third was also settled for an amount I am more than happy with, but am not allowed to divulge. Needless to say, none of these three probably ended up with enough to take a decent foreign holiday.

None of this is to say it's not a pain in the arse that you've been fucked about, just trying to throw a little reality into what it actually means to get involved in employment tribunals.

Hi, my name is Gumbo and I haven't been sued by anyone for just over 12 months now.

All 'Hello Gumbo'

 

[Moriath]

Gumbo the guy everyone wants to hire lol

 

[ford prefect]

I suspect all you can do is take this one on the chin. Personally I would make a fuss, but to be perfectly honest it probably won't get you anywhere and depending on the company, it may come across that you aren't a team player and it may affect future opportunities (even though it shouldn't). It depends if it is one of those - if your face fits and you play by our rules outfits.

 

[Gumbo]

Unfortunately it's a peril of being a modern employer. You can jump through every hoop, be as fair as you can possibly try to be, (in this case BigG's employer has been far from fair so far) and still get sued.

Largely this is because of the growth of no win no fee, and people believing that there are no circumstances under which one can be fired. It's true, just by bringing a case you'll probably get something. It's so bloody expensive to defend (£5k plus a day in court) which for a small business simply isn't worth it when you can settle for £600, even if you know you'll win. Costs are almost never awarded in tribunal cases so even if the business wins a 2 day hearing they'll still be £10k down for those 2 days, let alone the months of prep before hand.

I've been sued for wrongful dismissal, and disability discrimination, when someone was fired on my behalf (I didn't even do the firing, I was the fella's manager, but HR did the investigation and firing) after he threatened to kill me in front of 10+ other members of staff. That was the first one mentioned above, settled for £600. The second was constructive dismissal after someone left the business under what I thought were fairly amicable terms, only I then made the mistake of firing her husband before her claim could be time barred. This was after a long investigation revealed him as routinely stealing cash. She withdrew her claim eventually as there was absolutely no case to answer, he sued for the £70k mentioned above and received the payout I'm not allowed to divulge, but was very happy with.

Sorry for thread hijack.

 

[Ch3tan]

Gumbo the guy everyone wants to hire lol

No no, he's the employer that everyone wants to sue

 

[old.user4556]

Yup, makes sense to have a chat to your mate. At the moment, it really doesn't seem, from the outside, that anything too big a deal has happened. The problems start if you lose your existing job because they made you apply for the wrong one. I would imagine until that happens, the advice will be to sit tight.

If the company is going through a big restructure, and you want to keep working there in the medium to long term, now is probably not the time to be rocking the boat. I don't know the industry that you're in, but that advice will be far more pertinent to some areas where at the moment, any employment is better than none at all.

You're absolutely spot on Gumbo. I've discussed this at length with peers and my family this evening and they are all the same opinion that "they've made a complete arse up of this, but just sit tight just now and don't rock the boat yet". I do think that I need to take this on the chin, because it all becomes a moot point if I secure a role come January as it will be at this actual higher level anyway. If I am not successful, then I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

Additionally, I've looked back through my emails and I do indeed have an email from said boss advising that the promotion details had been entered into the HR system and that the 5% salary increase as a result would be effective as of the 1st of October with a letter from HR due within 10 days. Therefore, I do have it in writing that the this promotion was official.

I have exchanged a few texts with my mate and he has advised that a contract can indeed still be verbal, it just gets evidentially very hard to prove than something that is in writing. I sent the details of the above email to him and he says it's very definite in what it says but the options of pursuing it are not likely to be that productive (probably something similar to what Gumbo has said above). He's going to contact me tomorrow night to discuss in detail.

In short; I think I should suck it up and wait until January to see if I'm successful or not.

 

[Moriath]

No no, he's the employer that everyone wants to sue

my bad ... miss read

 

[MrHorus]

Additionally, I've looked back through my emails and I do indeed have an email from said boss advising that the promotion details had been entered into the HR system and that the 5% salary increase as a result would be effective as of the 1st of October with a letter from HR due within 10 days. Therefore, I do have it in writing that the this promotion was official.

That strengthens your case somewhat, but it still doesn't become a binding commitment on the part of your employer until the new contract is signed.

I think you might be as well taking it on the chin and seeing what happens in the next few months.

 

[Aoami]

I used to work in employment law at a county council and most of the cases were thrown out because a T wasn't crossed or an I not dotted. Always seemed like a waste of time.

 

[Tilda]

That strengthens your case somewhat, but it still doesn't become a binding commitment on the part of your employer until the new contract is signed.

I think you might be as well taking it on the chin and seeing what happens in the next few months.

email certainly increases the strength of the argument that you have a verbal contract though.

G, can I suggest that you write down an account of everything that has happened so far, in as much detail as possible, including a date. A contemporaneous record of your verbal conversations will be even more valuable in january if things go wrong then.