Progressive Thaw

[old.arQon]

The motivation behind progressive thaw wasn't "Guy A does 2 secs of defrosting, then a minute later Guy B comes by and finishes off the last second of it", it was "when you're up against skilled players, it's trivial for them to guarantee you can't get a thaw just by shooting the
POPSICLE rather than you directly. Even if you're willing to take the damage, the knockback carries it out of the TINY thaw range, and resetting the counter when that happens is just retarded."

It's literally impossible to thaw teammates in VFT against good players
unless they don't guard bodies (and since they're good players, they do) OR you kill them first and try to thaw afterwards, before someone else shows up (which isn't going to be an option on maps like DM7 where the bodies are all in the RA room and so is most of the enemy team). Since it IS futile to try and thaw, frozen players are stuck that way for extended periods of time while the last member of the team sneaks around as if it was RA3.

Someone suggested a while back that "re-freezing" popsicles OVER TIME if they weren't actively being thawed might be a good idea, and it turns out that it does seem to be.
Ones that are abandoned or successfully defended return to the full 3 secs; but ones that are simply knocked 101 units away from you for a fraction of a second don't immediately revert to fully-frozen, so it is actually possible to thaw them while in combat.

Design approved the new scheme this afternoon, so CPMA 99x1 (the development build) has it. When that will go Gold and whether the league
decides to switch to it or not aren't things I know the answers to.

 

[old.Eraser[CFS]]

The logic behind it seems reasonable, but honestly, I've never encountered any of these problems in thawing teammates myself, or at least, never experienced it as being a problem.

Thank you btw for clearing up the progressive thaw term thing. Still, Sar was confusing this CPMA "progressive thaw" thing with Unlagged's thaw counter.

 

[old.arQon]

It's a matter of skill levels. VFT thawing rules worked pretty well when I was just messing around with my clanmates, but fell apart completely when players like Apheleon got into the mix and realised that you didn't have to scare the player away to reset the thaw: you could do it just by spamming the BODY instead to move it, and the body can't dodge.

If you just switch between RL and RG you can alternate between shooting the player and resetting the thaw. He can't take cover from the rail since it goes through bodies; plus he'll take splash damage from the rockets and he CAN'T try and avoid that because doing so would also reset the thaw. Even RL alone can easily guarantee the reset provided the player using it is smart and has even halfway-decent aim.

That's a pretty fatal flaw, and not addressing the problem simply because many players don't have the aim (or simply the knowledge of the trick) to exploit it doesn't make it any less of one. With Div1 TDMers trying FT, they WOULD have realised it just as the good US players did, and they have the skill to put it into practice.

 

[old.Quark]

Are you saying you introduced progresive thaw to help lesser player against good players? Ie help the newbs? I thought cpma was just for the 1337 so why help out newbs?

Personaly I use the audio cue a lot so that I can camp bodies from some distance and still get there within 3 secs to knock thawers off bodies. Allowing someone to just pop back for 1/2 a sec to finish a thaw makes that sort of camping impossible.

I have no problem with options like this if people want it but why not make your gameplay changes just that (options) so that people can opt out if they like. Your mod would be far more popular if you did that.

 

[r3tina]

Originally posted by Quark
I have no problem with options like this if people want it but why not make your gameplay changes just that (options) so that people can opt out if they like. Your mod would be far more popular if you did that.

Simple. Because arQon doesn't give a damn about casual players and only caters to his 150 member fanclub of l33t players. uFreeze is (or will be in a future release) everything CPMA is, and then some. Most important: players have a choice with uFreeze, which guarantees it will be more popular than CPMA.

 

[old.Eraser[CFS]]

The logic behind the "low" configurability of CPMA was (if I recall correctly) that with standard "sets" of rules, the players always know what way the game is played and won't have to find out how it works the first 5 mins of the game.

I prefer high configurability though. In essence it's always the same: shoot the players in the other team. The little tweaks will become clear soon enough.

 

[old.arQon]

Yeah. We used to have options for EVERYTHING, and all it meant was admins whining about how hard it was to set up a server; and players whining about how every server was different. We STILL have about 100 options for all sorts of things even after removing most of the rarely-used ones, and we try pretty hard to avoid adding more these days.

Quark - you clearly don't even understand the topic at hand. Go get some knowledge first?

 

[old.Quark]

LOL naturaly I have no understanding of FT. Only played it for 2 years or so and I know that playing for newb clans like JaC has done nothing to enhance my understanding of the game. See me being an idiot, when I face the problem of a good player guarding a body I do something daft like shoot him till he is dead or runs off, or maybe knock the body into a void or into a safer defrost spot. Never even occured to me that the obvious solution was to change the rules so that a newb like me could get easy thaws. See how stupid I am?

 

[old.Eraser[CFS]]

Originally posted by Quark
LOL naturaly I have no understanding of FT. Only played it for 2 years or so and I know that playing for newb clans like JaC has done nothing to enhance my understanding of the game. See me being an idiot, when I face the problem of a good player guarding a body I do something daft like shoot him till he is dead or runs off, or maybe knock the body into a void or into a safer defrost spot. Never even occured to me that the obvious solution was to change the rules so that a newb like me could get easy thaws. See how stupid I am?

Touche

 

[old.arQon]

>> Allowing someone to just pop back for 1/2 a sec to finish a thaw makes that sort of camping impossible.

> See how stupid I am.

Yes, I do.
Try reading the original post in this thread again.

BTW: "Camping is the last resort of the truly unskilled" - Thresh.

 

[old.[AF]haste]

Sounds like both arQon and Quark have some pretty good points about the gameplay issues on this. Here are a couple of my thoughts on the subject:

- If a popsicle (I like "corpsicle," BTW ) will return to a completely frozen state after being left alone, you can view this as a "grace period." Basically, you can leave a body for a bit and come back if you haven't been away too long, or it can be blown out of range a bit. (I think this could be a good thing.) Obviously, whether you view this as a grace period for thawing or as "progressive thawing" depends on how long it takes for a corpsicle to return to a completely frozen state. In light of Quark's comments, I would favor a shorter refreeze time - about 1 second, I'd say.

- You could also alleviate the problem by adjusting the knockback. If you halve the knockback when a corpsicle is shot by the opposing team, that might take care of it. (I don't think removing knockback would be a good idea, since moving enemy corpsicles around is part of the strategy.)

Eh?

 

[old.[AF]haste]

Originally posted by arQon
BTW: "Camping is the last resort of the truly unskilled" - Thresh.

I will strongly disagree. I'd say since you pretty much voice the opinions of most CPMA-ers, that statement probably sums up the perception in the CPMA community (which CPMA Freeze seems to work well for) - but you can't apply that statement to every type of game and gamer. (If you're not, I apologize - but in context that's what it seems like.)

In the VFT community, camping is a perfectly acceptable strategy, and the teams that know when to do so and when not to have a better chance at winning.

Of course, we're talking about CPMA Freeze, aren't we?

 

[old.Quark]

I would sugest the option of refreeze at the same rate as thaw. So if you are 2 secs into a defrost it takes 2 secs to return to frozen etc. BUT have it off by default as it is a big change in gameplay. I dont like the idea of messing with the knockback values.

 

[old.[AF]haste]

Originally posted by Quark
I would sugest the option of refreeze at the same rate as thaw. So if you are 2 secs into a defrost it takes 2 secs to return to frozen etc. BUT have it off by default as it is a big change in gameplay. I dont like the idea of messing with the knockback values.

You're probably right, and I'd go with that solution.

HOWEVER...I just had a revelation, distilled upon my soul like the dews from heaven...anyway...

This progessive thawing, grace period, refreeze, whatever you want to call it idea has one central tenet: that you should be able to thaw a teammate while in close combat.

That's the real difference between progressive thawing and VFT's thawing, and no matter what the specifics are, that's the base issue. But is the tenet right? It seems to me that to the CPMA Freeze people that's a given. But then, either having to clear out an area before thawing a teammate or taking a chance at being frozen yourself can definitely be regarded as part of the strategy. (And it's often wicked suspenseful to choose the latter.)

 

[old.Quark]

Originally posted by [AF]haste

that you should be able to thaw a teammate while in close combat

Been doing that for quite a while in good old vft. It just takes a little skill to strafe circle around a body while shooting and stay close enough to keep the thaw going. This tactic is used a lot in instafreeze and quite a bit in normal play. The trick is to bug out when you see the rockets coming. Progresive thawing makes this method a lot easier as you need less skill to pull it off and can wander in and out of the thaw zone. Thats why I say it should be off by default.

 

[r3tina]

Originally posted by [AF]haste


That's the real difference between progressive thawing and VFT's thawing, and no matter what the specifics are, that's the base issue. But is the tenet right? It seems to me that to the CPMA Freeze people that's a given. But then, either having to clear out an area before thawing a teammate or taking a chance at being frozen yourself can definitely be regarded as part of the strategy. (And it's often wicked suspenseful to choose the latter.)

I think you're right. I often choose the latter in certain situations, and it is indeed a part of the strategy involved with FT.

 

[old.Eraser[CFS]]

In vFT it's usual to first make sure the room is clear, and then thaw. You have to pay very much attention to what's happening around you, as you know, one well placed rocket knocks you away and you can't thaw your teammate.

If you decide to build in the CPMA "progressive thawing", then make it an option indeed. I think I would prefer the vFT way of thawing, but then again, the CPMA way might add just a bit more speed to the game as it's easier to thaw during close combat.

 

[old.fallen]

Maybe I'm as stupid as Quark (I hope not ), but I just don't get it. If an enemy is camping my frozen teammates, I get armor, guns, armor, health, then go in to kick his butt so I can thaw in peace.

I don't understand the need for the progressive thaw thingiemabobber, if an enemy is camping a frozen teammate, you have options. A, find another frozen teammate and thaw them instead, B, kill the enemy, then thaw, C, try to sneak in a thaw (hard to do if enemy is any good though), D, shoot corpsicle into lava/void etc, takes half a second, E, F, G, H...

I really don't see the need for it at all, if an enemy player is fairly good and I can't sneak in a thaw for 3 seconds straight, then shouldn't I play smarter and try to get the room for such a thaw instead of changing the mod?

Please enlighten me as to why such a huge change in the way the game is played is a good thing to even have as an option?
(I can't object violently to the refreezing progressive thaw thingie, but I don't really see the need)

 

[Sar]

Because if you're playing against skillful players you won't get to thaw ANYTHING, hence this style of progressive thaw.

 

[old.fallen]

Ok, I won't count dm6, since that map is really not a good FT map, it's a great map, just not really FT friendly since it's very easy, and very common, to shoot bodies into quad area and have 2 people guarding them making thaws very hard.

But apart from dm6 I can't think of many places where thawing is that hard if people play smart. If there are 2 corpses at quad on dm7, I won't go rushing in if I don't know it's reasonably safe to attack and thaw. Assuming my opponents are fairly skilled, I need to get the upper hand by gathering armor, guns, megahealth etc and get a coordinated thaw action along with my remaining teammates. That's a huge part of FT, playing smart, not just rushing in to thaw ASAP.

And with a progressive thaw it's much more likely that bodies will be moved to a place easy to guard since you don't have 3 seconds to stop the thaw. So I tend to think it may actually counter its purpose. Normal FT rules you don't need to move all bodies into a easily campable position, as long as they're withing hearing distance it's fine, you have 3 seconds to get there afterall.

 

[old.arQon]

I like "corpsicle" too - I just keep forgetting to use it.

Thresh was talking about 1v1 BTW. Even among CPMA players, there's no such thing as "camping" in CTF and other games with defensive rather than purely-offensive goals.

>> you should be able to thaw a teammate while in close combat <<
This is indeed the point, because otherwise it's not possible to thaw AT ALL. If you're near a corpsicle and you're on the down team, you're ALWAYS IN COMBAT unless the other team suck.

The approach we take to all these things with CPMA is that we add it to the builds and then PLAYTEST it. Those of you who are still opposed to the idea, download 99x1 (see promode.org) and TRY IT OUT.
Thinking is a wonderful way of getting an idea of what might work and what might not, but it doesn't compare to actually playing.

 

[old.Xzan]

Hi

Well I've been playing freeze for around two and a half years (although that shouldn't affect anything - an argument must stand on its own merits regardless of whether you like the person or not).

Overall, credit where credit's due - in my opinion arQon has had two very good ideas, which will enhance vFT:

1) Keeping bodies frozen for a period of time when falling into lava/voids has just gone into vFT1.5x and is a big improvement.

2) Progressive thawing will improve gameplay and should be turned on by default. As a principle, it's a really good idea - the only issues are how to implement it best, which is what this thread has been about. Let me explain why I think this...

At present in vFT, if you're the last player (or two) surviving against an opposing team, the odds are stacked too much against you. To take an example from Fallen's post to illustrate why:

A) find another frozen teammate and thaw them instead - you'll find that difficult as well-organised team will guard its corpses. Also, corpses may become clustered together as a result of unsucessful thaw attempts etc.

B) kill the enemy, then thaw - remember that the enemy are likely to have control of the map. They aren't going to leave you the armour or power ups. A decent team will also be watching the teamoverlay and will be supporting when they see a teammates health dropping. Even if you kill the first guard, you may well see a second wave of enemies arriving before you have time to complete another 3 second thaw.

C) try to sneak in a thaw (hard to do if enemy is any good though) - agreed.

D) shoot corpsicle into lava/void etc, takes half a second - true

Note that of Fallen's strategies above, only point B is really affected by the introduction of progressive thawing. This is because the intervention of a guard is normally the only thing that stops you finishing your thaw.

Currently, all the defender has to do is to knock you away from the corpse and keep you busy fighting while their teammates arrive and you'll have to retreat.

What progressive thawing will do (if you're quick) is let you defeat the initial guard, finish the thaw and then run before the second wave of enemy players comes in. That sounds a lot fairer than the existing method.

_________

As an aside, the tactics used by Quark are actually quite common. "Personaly I use the audio cue a lot so that I can camp bodies from some distance and still get there within 3 secs to knock thawers off bodies. Allowing someone to just pop back for 1/2 a sec to finish a thaw makes that sort of camping impossible."

The problem I have with these tactics is that there isn't enough risk for the defender (particularly if your frozen teammates can only spectate the thawer and can't flag the position of enemy guards).

The defender just hides round a corner and attacks when they hear the thawing sound. They get the benefit of surprise and splash damage (as the corpse is against a surface). Do they really need the advantage of a largely static target too? ...and if the thawer moves away, they have the advantage of buying more time for reinforcements to arrive as the battle ensues...

If the defender is successful with Quark's tactics, the corpses will become clustered together which makes thawing far more difficult. This happens quite regularly (especially on public servers).

I have no problem with people guarding corpses. However, I want the defender to have to work a bit harder and take a few more risks, which progressive thawing will do.
_________

I think most of the ideas about the specifics of progressive thawing in the above thread are fairly sensible. However, I think some form of progressive thawing would be a step forward for freeze.

 

[old.Eraser[CFS]]

If progressive thawing is inplemented in unlagged, it should be optional.
Same goes for the frozentime on suicide thing. Maybe a cvar which could set the amount of seconds you remain frozen on suicide. Setting this to 0 (which should be the default IMO) will bring gameplay back to the original Freeze Tag.

IMO the goal of unlagged should be to stay as true to the original FT 1.5, and only add new possibilities, it shouldn't replace the original gameplay with new ideas.

 

[r3tina]

All the arguments I've seen in favor of progressive thawing sound fairly reasonable. There just one catch: they all assume both teams have very skilled players, who have TDM down to the details. There aren't a lot of FT clans that have that level of play, and in the case of two less skilled clans, progressive thawing can work against them. Thawing becomes too easy, and it takes longer to get points, which in turns results in slower matches.
Therefor I think it important to make the feature an option.

 

[old.JaC- cRunCh]

thawing

I dont see any need to change the 3 second thaw, it works ok and cant realy be inproved by using progressive thawing.

progressive thawing would change the gameplay to much and should be a option.

cRunCh

 

[old.[AF]haste]

Wouldn't a shorter thaw time also accomplish this?

 

[old.arQon]

Sort of, but not really. Thawing faster changes the gameplay dynamic a little too much: we tried it at 2 seconds (that was the default for ProMode FT originally, before we came up with prog thaw) but found that it took a lot of the tension out of it, to the extent that if you were thawed against it just seemed cheap, and if you got the thaw it didn't feel as rewarding.

Aside: making "options for everything including cuntish behaviour like no penalty for suiciding so that we don't have to grow up as players" is a Bad Idea. There's a big difference between deliberate gameplay decisions and bugs+exploits: cf splash through floors in early versions of Q3.

 

[r3tina]

Originally posted by arQon
Aside: making "options for everything including cuntish behaviour like no penalty for suiciding so that we don't have to grow up as players" is a Bad Idea. There's a big difference between deliberate gameplay decisions and bugs+exploits: cf splash through floors in early versions of Q3.

Using suicide as in using the "kill" command is indeed lame and should be made impossible. Jumping into lava or void tho isn't IMO "cuntish behaviour", as you so delicately called it. It's simply part of the game... the opposing team simply has to kill that last player faster than he can jump in a void.
Now, I'm in favor of a limit to this. For example, limit the number of suicides the last player from a team can commit to 2 or 3 (perhaps even 1), so that you cannot mindlessly jump into a void. Another reason for this is that, if you freeze a player jumping into a void (or lava), the enemy team can in fact try to shoot that player in for an easy kill. That would perhaps also classify as "cuntish behaviour". A good middle road is, IMO, a limit to the number of suicides permitted.

 

[old.SithLord]

Yeah but reset it if a point is scored.

 

[old.arQon]

void = death in EVERY gametype. The only reason you could get away with it in VFT is because Doo couldn't leave the bodies there since it would be impossible to thaw them, and didn't know how to code a workaround.
Some arbitrary "maximum number of suicides" is inconsistent not only with every other game but even within itself, and consititutes a pretty poor attempt at a solution, IMO.